* Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk still fails (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) @ 2008-04-11 9:06 Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 7:45 ` Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken " Angelo Graziosi 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-11 9:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On GNU/Linux Kubuntu 7.10 and Cygwin, the bootstrap still fails: [...] Compiling /tmp.builds/emacs/lisp/./xt-mouse.el Wrote /tmp.builds/emacs/lisp/xt-mouse.elc Compiling /tmp.builds/emacs/lisp/./calc/calc-aent.el In toplevel form: ../../emacs/lisp/calc/calc-aent.el:32:1:Error: Cannot open load file: calc-loaddefs.el make[2]: *** [compile] Error 1 make[2]: Leaving directory `/tmp.builds/build/lisp' make[1]: *** [bootstrap-build] Error 2 make[1]: Leaving directory `/tmp.builds/build' make: *** [bootstrap] Error 2 Every time, I have deleted the old CVS then a fresh checkout: cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org:/sources/emacs co -P emacs but always the same failure. There are some posts ([1]) regarding this issue. Cheers, Angelo. --- [1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00846.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00845.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00790.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00760.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-11 9:06 Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk still fails (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-12 7:45 ` Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 8:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-12 9:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-12 7:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel (GNU/Linux Kubuntu 7.10 and Cygwin) The bootstrap is newly broken. About 15 hours ago was fixed with: ---------------------------------------------------------- 2008-04-11 Stefan Monnier <...> [...] * dired.el (dired-read-dir-and-switches): Use read-directory-name even for non-dialogs. * Makefile.in (bootstrap-prepare): Don't copy ldefs-boot over loaddefs. * loadup.el: Load ldefs-boot.el if loaddefs.el doesn't exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (It failed as described in [1]) Now it fails as described in [2]!!! Just a curiosity: who submits patches to CVS, will test them with a clean bootstrap??? 'Clean' does not mean 'make maintainer-clean && make bootstrap', but: mkdir new_dir cd new_dir cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org:/sources/emacs co -P emac cd emacs ./configure make bootstrap Yes, it is heavy, but it is the only clean method that will guarantee the patches do no introduce regressions. Cheers, Angelo. --- [1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00865.html [2] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-04/msg00921.html "I have a dream..." Martin Luther KING, Washington 28 August 1963 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 7:45 ` Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken " Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-12 8:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-12 9:18 ` Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 9:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-12 8:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:45:00 +0200 > From: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it> > > cd emacs > ./configure > make bootstrap > > > Yes, it is heavy, but it is the only clean method that will guarantee > the patches do no introduce regressions. Actually, there is no practical way to know for sure that changes don't introduce regressions, in general. While "make bootstrap" will make sure a bootstrap works on the submitter's machine (and is recommended to those that can afford it), it says nothing about other ways of building Emacs, nor about other machines and OSes we support. It also doesn't tell anything about run-time behavior, and as long as we don't have a test suite, there will always be a significant doubt. (Even when we do have a test suite, we cannot ask contributors to run it on more than one system -- her own.) IOW, I submit that asking people to be sure they don't cause regressions in these circumstances is tantamount to asking them not to commit changes at all. So please calm down. The development trunk will inevitably become broken from time to time, no matter what. If you must build the trunk every day or even more frequently, and depend on the resulting binary for your daily work, I suggest to make some arrangements to have the previous working build available until you are sure the new one builds and works successfully. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 8:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-12 9:18 ` Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 9:27 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 10:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-12 9:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii ha scritto: >> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:45:00 +0200 >> From: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it> >> >> cd emacs >> ./configure >> make bootstrap >> >> >> Yes, it is heavy, but it is the only clean method that will guarantee >> the patches do no introduce regressions. > > Actually, there is no practical way to know for sure that changes > don't introduce regressions, in general. While "make bootstrap" will > make sure a bootstrap works on the submitter's machine (and is > recommended to those that can afford it), it says nothing about other > ways of building Emacs, nor about other machines and OSes we support. Obviously. But how could the trunk users to test a new patch if it breaks the bootstrap? I thought that passing the bootstrap was the minimal request for submitting a patch and that this would be reached if all start with the same conditions in bootstrapping. Sorry if I has been wrong. > So please calm down. The development trunk will inevitably become > broken from time to time, no matter what. If you must build the trunk > every day or even more frequently, and depend on the resulting binary > for your daily work, I suggest to make some arrangements to have the > previous working build available until you are sure the new one builds > and works successfully. I think that on my backup DVDs I have working build until two months ago. And if I build so often, it is to avoid the pile-up of bugs (when they are present) that would make hard to solve, mainly on Cygwin, on which no cygwin-guys take care of them. Sorry newly for the noise, Angelo. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 9:18 ` Angelo Graziosi @ 2008-04-12 9:27 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 10:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-04-12 9:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it> wrote: > But how could the trunk users to test a new patch if it breaks the > bootstrap? There is no need to bootstrap after every cvs update... > I thought that passing the bootstrap was the minimal request for submitting > a patch and that this would be reached if all start with the same conditions > in bootstrapping. In an ideal world, it'd be nice if each change were to be known not to break bootstrapping. But the fact is, most patches do not break it [1], and the ones that do are usually detected quite fast, so it is a waste of resources to require everyone to bootstrap before each commit [2]. [1] Some changes (configure, makefiles, autoloads, etc.) are more likely than others; we're hit such a spot right now :( [2] Bear in mind that tiny, apparently trivial changes can break it: there's no complexity threshold below which a change is totally safe. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 9:27 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:12 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (5 more replies) 0 siblings, 6 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Romain Francoise @ 2008-04-12 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel, Angelo Graziosi "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes: > In an ideal world, it'd be nice if each change were to be known > not to break bootstrapping. But the fact is, most patches do not > break it [1], and the ones that do are usually detected quite > fast, so it is a waste of resources to require everyone to > bootstrap before each commit [2]. While that is certainly true, it's also a waste of time for our users to have to report bugs that could be avoided, and a waste of our own time because we have to handle the reports. For the last few months I've been running a buildbot for the trunk and the 22 branch (and before the merge, for the unicode branch), it does a clean build every night (on GNU/Linux only) and usually catches bootstrap failures. See <URL:http://build.orebokech.com/>. If there's interest we could add Cygwin and Windows build slaves and possibly increase the build frequency (the usual way of using buildbot is with a notification script in the CVS commit hooks, but I don't think this is allowed on Savannah). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise @ 2008-04-12 12:12 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 12:16 ` martin rudalics ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-04-12 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero, Angelo Graziosi, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Romain Francoise <romain@orebokech.com> wrote: > While that is certainly true, it's also a waste of time for our > users to have to report bugs that could be avoided, and a waste of > our own time because we have to handle the reports. > > For the last few months I've been running a buildbot for the trunk > and the 22 branch (and before the merge, for the unicode branch), it > does a clean build every night (on GNU/Linux only) and usually > catches bootstrap failures. See <URL:http://build.orebokech.com/>. Having an automatic method of detecting bootstrap failures (and reporting to the committer(s)) would be good IMHO. Still, that does not change the previous point: those building from the trunk should know to expect trouble (and not just from building/bootstrapping) every now and then. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:12 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-04-12 12:16 ` martin rudalics 2008-04-12 13:41 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:53 ` martin rudalics ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: martin rudalics @ 2008-04-12 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Romain Francoise Cc: Juanma Barranquero, Eli Zaretskii, Angelo Graziosi, emacs-devel > While that is certainly true, it's also a waste of time for our > users to have to report bugs that could be avoided, and a waste of > our own time because we have to handle the reports. I violently agree. > For the last few months I've been running a buildbot for the trunk > and the 22 branch (and before the merge, for the unicode branch), it > does a clean build every night (on GNU/Linux only) and usually > catches bootstrap failures. See <URL:http://build.orebokech.com/>. Awesome. In the future I shall _always_ consult your page before bootstrapping. Please keep on maintaining it. Please add the URL and a corresponding explanation to the INSTALL files. > If there's interest we could add Cygwin and Windows build slaves I'd be very much interested. > and possibly increase the build frequency The current frequency is OK with me. > (the usual way of using > buildbot is with a notification script in the CVS commit hooks, but > I don't think this is allowed on Savannah). What would that do precisely? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 12:16 ` martin rudalics @ 2008-04-12 13:41 ` Romain Francoise 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Romain Francoise @ 2008-04-12 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: martin rudalics Cc: Juanma Barranquero, Eli Zaretskii, Angelo Graziosi, emacs-devel martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> writes: >> (the usual way of using buildbot is with a notification script in >> the CVS commit hooks, but I don't think this is allowed on >> Savannah). > What would that do precisely? It would allow buildbot to trigger a rebuild automatically after a commit (with configurable strategies to avoid rebuilding too often) and notify the people who have committed changes (since the last build) in case of failure. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:12 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 12:16 ` martin rudalics @ 2008-04-12 12:53 ` martin rudalics 2008-04-13 9:31 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 13:45 ` Stefan Monnier ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: martin rudalics @ 2008-04-12 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Romain Francoise Cc: Juanma Barranquero, Eli Zaretskii, Angelo Graziosi, emacs-devel > If there's interest we could add Cygwin and Windows build slaves > and possibly increase the build frequency (the usual way of using > buildbot is with a notification script in the CVS commit hooks, but > I don't think this is allowed on Savannah). After glimpsing at the BuildBot manual: It might make sense to (1) send a notification to emacs-devel as soon as a build of the trunk failed and temporarily increase the build frequency, (2) send another notification when the first build succeeds after that and decrease the build frequency to the standard value (maybe after another day). In addition, it seems reasonable to temporarily increase the build frequency after a major merge or other non-trivial changes. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 12:53 ` martin rudalics @ 2008-04-13 9:31 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-13 14:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-14 0:52 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Romain Francoise @ 2008-04-13 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: martin rudalics; +Cc: Chong Yidong, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> writes: > After glimpsing at the BuildBot manual: It might make sense to > (1) send a notification to emacs-devel as soon as a build of the trunk > failed and temporarily increase the build frequency, > (2) send another notification when the first build succeeds after that > and decrease the build frequency to the standard value (maybe after > another day). Okay so there are two aspects here: (i) increase the build frequency in case of problems, and (ii) send notifications when the build state changes (from passing to failing and back). Implementing (i) requires some hacking because I don't think buildbot has a built-in scheduler that changes behavior based on build status, so to keep things simple I just increased the frequency (to four builds per day). There is no existing functionality for (ii) either, but it was trivial to implement and seems to be working okay. Stefan, Yidong, is it okay to send these notifications to emacs-devel? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-13 9:31 ` Romain Francoise @ 2008-04-13 14:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-14 0:52 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-13 14:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Romain Francoise; +Cc: rudalics, cyd, monnier, emacs-devel > From: Romain Francoise <romain@orebokech.com> > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:31:49 +0200 > Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>, > Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Stefan, Yidong, is it okay to send these notifications to > emacs-devel? I'm neither Stefan nor Yidong, but IMHO emacs-devel is the _only_ place where these notifications should go. Just be sure to subscribe the buildbot's address to the list, because otherwise its notifications will be held by mailman until I free them (since emacs-devel is a moderated list), and you cannot rely on me doing that more than once or twice a day. Btw, aren't there facilities on Savannah (or maybe subversions) to run scheduled builds like that? If not, IMO they should add such a feature, and if it already exists, we should use it in preference to external tools. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-13 9:31 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-13 14:03 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-14 0:52 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-04-14 0:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Romain Francoise; +Cc: rudalics, cyd, monnier, emacs-devel I suggest appointing a few people as a committee to study this and implement it, having discussions separately off this list, so as not to take up the time and attention of everyone else. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2008-04-12 12:53 ` martin rudalics @ 2008-04-12 13:45 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-04-12 14:06 ` Jason Rumney 2008-04-12 14:24 ` Eric Hanchrow 5 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-04-12 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel, Angelo Graziosi >> In an ideal world, it'd be nice if each change were to be known >> not to break bootstrapping. But the fact is, most patches do not >> break it [1], and the ones that do are usually detected quite >> fast, so it is a waste of resources to require everyone to >> bootstrap before each commit [2]. > While that is certainly true, it's also a waste of time for our > users to have to report bugs that could be avoided, and a waste of > our own time because we have to handle the reports. The problem is that users are not supposed to just come and whine about bootstrap failures. They should at least do the work of figuring out either a patch to fix it, or to find out the commit that broke it, ... This is a development branch: expect it to be broken, Stefan PS: The only problem that I would consider as really serious, even for the development branch is a bug that risks losing data. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2008-04-12 13:45 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2008-04-12 14:06 ` Jason Rumney 2008-04-12 14:24 ` Eric Hanchrow 5 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Jason Rumney @ 2008-04-12 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero, Angelo Graziosi, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel Romain Francoise wrote: > (the usual way of using > buildbot is with a notification script in the CVS commit hooks, but > I don't think this is allowed on Savannah). > You could subscribe your bot to emacs-commit@gnu.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2008-04-12 14:06 ` Jason Rumney @ 2008-04-12 14:24 ` Eric Hanchrow 5 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eric Hanchrow @ 2008-04-12 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel >>>>> "Romain" == Romain Francoise <romain@orebokech.com> writes: Romain> If there's interest we could add Cygwin and Windows build Romain> slaves If you do add a Windows build slave, would you be sure to announce it here? Not so much because I want to follow the Emacs build, but because I'd like to learn how to use buildbot on Windows, and am interested in talking to someone who's actually done it. -- The old graybeards in the Smalltalk world may not seem relevant, but if you ask them a question about ORM, they have been thinking about it for 20 years. -- Avi Bryant ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 9:18 ` Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 9:27 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2008-04-12 10:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-12 10:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:18:17 +0200 > From: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > But how could the trunk users to test a new patch if it breaks the > bootstrap? If the changes also break a non-bootstrap build, then they can't, not until the trunk is fixed to build again. Or they can fix it themselves, if they have time and knowhow. > I thought that passing the bootstrap was the minimal request for > submitting a patch and that this would be reached if all start with the > same conditions in bootstrapping. I don't know if this is the minimal requirement, and it's not my place to introduce such requirements. All I can say is that bootstrapping takes a significant time, so requiring it from each submitter would be tough on them. FWIW, I bootstrap only very infrequently. > Sorry newly for the noise, No need to apologize. Thanks for timely reports of the breakage. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) 2008-04-12 7:45 ` Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken " Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 8:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-12 9:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-04-12 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:45:00 +0200 > From: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it> > > (GNU/Linux Kubuntu 7.10 and Cygwin) > > The bootstrap is newly broken. I think I fixed it, please try again. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-04-14 0:52 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-04-11 9:06 Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk still fails (GNU/Linux, Cygwin) Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 7:45 ` Bootstrapping Emacs-23.0.60-trunk newly broken " Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 8:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-12 9:18 ` Angelo Graziosi 2008-04-12 9:27 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 11:46 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:12 ` Juanma Barranquero 2008-04-12 12:16 ` martin rudalics 2008-04-12 13:41 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-12 12:53 ` martin rudalics 2008-04-13 9:31 ` Romain Francoise 2008-04-13 14:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-14 0:52 ` Richard Stallman 2008-04-12 13:45 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-04-12 14:06 ` Jason Rumney 2008-04-12 14:24 ` Eric Hanchrow 2008-04-12 10:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 2008-04-12 9:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
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