From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <47F01743.4040503@emf.net> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324200911.GA1310@muc.de> <001e01c88dee$34267e90$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <20080324210229.GB1310@muc.de> <85r6dsm1vz.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040208060606040809010008" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206914549 31198 80.91.229.12 (30 Mar 2008 22:02:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:02:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: M Jared Finder , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 31 00:03:00 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jg5cA-0003nx-Gg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:02:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jg5bY-0003iQ-PD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:02:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jg5bV-0003iB-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:02:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jg5bT-0003gv-7e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:02:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jg5bT-0003gn-58 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:02:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.42inc.com ([205.149.0.25]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (SSL 3.0:RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jg5bP-0006As-AA; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:02:11 -0400 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.5 X-TFF-CGPSA-Filter-42inc: Scanned X-42-Virus-Scanned: by 42 Antivirus -- Found to be clean. Original-Received: from [69.236.65.4] (account lord@emf.net HELO [192.168.1.64]) by mail.42inc.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPA id 26745647; Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:02:07 -0700 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060808) In-Reply-To: <85r6dsm1vz.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93961 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040208060606040809010008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Kastrup wrote: > >> I then tell them the answer (cua-mode), and 60% of the time they say, >> "Why isn't that the default, LIKE IN EVERY OTHER PROGRAM?" >> > > Because its keybindings conflict with that of Emacs. > See: I am pretty sure that is not really the problem. User's can cope easily with something as simple as that. The problem is the strange way that Emacs tries to mix its native "marker" concept with the "fat cursor" concept that is found in other systems. It's an unnatural mix, imo. A subtle aspect of Emacs' architecture ca. 18.x is that there's a simple, ad hoc but nice and comfortable, "state machine" which is the buffer data structure with markers, points, etc. -- and then Emacs lisp "scripts" over that and Emacs lisp programs have the same logical "perspective" as an interactive user. The way tmm/cua stuff is getting done, it's drifting into becoming just a big bundle of hair. A tiny tweak to the original simple core is the fat cursor concept. A hairy work-around is all this stuff that results because no 10 users can seem to agree about how best to hork the original concept of a "mark" to add the concept of "active/de-activated". TMM/CUA Announce to users familiar with those other systems that "Ok, now we have something that works kinda-like fat cursors but then there's also a ring for saving half of the information in a fat cursor and sometimes that ring is and other times it isn't itself the fat cursor and, anyway, there's a whole bunch of options to figure out when it should do what which is all cool cause, you know, just fix it in yr .emacs, luser." -t --------------040208060606040809010008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Kastrup wrote: 

I then tell them the answer (cua-mode), and 60% of the time they say,
"Why isn't that the default, LIKE IN EVERY OTHER PROGRAM?"
    

Because its keybindings conflict with that of Emacs.


See: I am pretty sure that is not really the problem.   User's
can cope easily with something as simple as that.

The problem is the strange way that Emacs tries to mix
its native "marker" concept with the "fat cursor" concept
that is found in other systems.    It's an unnatural mix, imo.

A subtle aspect of Emacs' architecture ca. 18.x is that
there's a simple, ad hoc but nice and comfortable, "state
machine" which is the buffer data structure with markers,
points, etc. -- and then Emacs lisp "scripts" over that and
Emacs lisp programs have the same logical "perspective"
as an interactive user.

The way tmm/cua stuff is getting done, it's drifting into
becoming just a big bundle of hair.   

A tiny tweak to the original simple core is the fat cursor
concept.

A hairy work-around is all this stuff that results because
no 10 users can seem to agree about how best to hork
the original concept of a "mark" to add the concept of
"active/de-activated".

TMM/CUA Announce to users familiar with those other
systems that "Ok, now we have something that works kinda-like
fat cursors but then there's also a ring for saving half of
the information in a fat cursor and sometimes that ring is
and other times it isn't itself the fat cursor and, anyway, there's
a whole bunch of options to figure out when it should do what
which is all cool cause, you know, just fix it in yr .emacs, luser."



-t

--------------040208060606040809010008--