From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:55:12 +0100 Message-ID: <47E81530.5040000@gmail.com> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <87zlsouef7.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206392167 14537 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 20:56:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:56:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Sascha Wilde , Alan Mackenzie , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: paul r Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 21:56:36 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JdtiG-00031n-87 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:56:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdthf-0005ce-99 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdthb-0005cI-GK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:31 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdthY-0005be-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdthX-0005bb-SM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:27 -0400 Original-Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.212]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdthX-0004eW-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:55:27 -0400 Original-Received: from c83-254-148-228.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.148.228]:63685 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JdthO-0002Zx-5z; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:55:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 In-Reply-To: X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080324-0, 2008-03-24), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.148.228 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1JdthO-0002Zx-5z. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1JdthO-0002Zx-5z 9e41ea2b51a742c3a9e990765d430e40 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93333 Archived-At: paul r wrote: > I really agree, because I had the same experience. On the other hand, > 5 years ago, I got really frustrated beginning on emacs, so much that > I gave up. I came back to it 2 years later, because someone pushed me, > gave me its .emacs, helped me to get hands on. It is a very, very different situation if you are alone or if you know someone who have used Emacs. The complexity is much higher if you are all alone. I think the complexity we meat is not a linear function of the number of details. Rather it is an exponential function. Our working memory is quite limited and perhaps one can think of this as like our mind have to swap between different sets of details if they get too many. The way our mind works we need to reduce complexity. That is IMO really the magic behind mathematics and logics. It reduces complexity so even normal human can (more or less) understand things that are complex. (Paper and pencil visualisation is another marvelous tool to reduce complexity which I tend to use when I get stuck ;-) .) > I think this, really, is a fundamental question : "On what criterion > should we choose defaults ?" > > Here are some of my thoughts : > - pushing educational ambition in default settings, really, is a big > mistake. You want to educate, so improve tutorial, improve > documentation, make more interactive tutorials. But do *not* > deliberately harden the way for beginners. > - It should *never* be a target make the default set so that gurus > here can minimize the size of their .emacs, ideally having a void > .emacs. Beginners should be comfortable using emacs, even with a void > .emacs. Not advanced users. (global-set-key [(control ?c) ?e] (lambda () (interactive) (find-file "~/.emacs"))) > - never compromise the wonderfull ability of emacs to be fully > customizable ( I do not worry too much about this one ;) > > What are yours ? I agree with you and with RMS when he wrote: "In Eclipse, these features are very visible and they "just work". It would be good if that were true in Emacs also." > Regards, > > -- Paul > > >