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From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
To: paul r <paul.r.ml@gmail.com>
Cc: Sascha Wilde <wilde@sha-bang.de>, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>,
	Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:55:12 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <47E81530.5040000@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e30f0f320803241340q1b1b0564jfb1ff64e83706876@mail.gmail.com>

paul r wrote:
> I really agree, because I had the same experience. On the other hand,
> 5 years ago, I got really frustrated beginning on emacs, so much that
> I gave up. I came back to it 2 years later, because someone pushed me,
> gave me its .emacs, helped me to get hands on.

It is a very, very different situation if you are alone or if you know 
someone who have used Emacs. The complexity is much higher if you are 
all alone.

I think the complexity we meat is not a linear function of the number of 
details. Rather it is an exponential function. Our working memory is 
quite limited and perhaps one can think of this as like our mind have to 
swap between different sets of details if they get too many.

The way our mind works we need to reduce complexity. That is IMO really 
the magic behind mathematics and logics. It reduces complexity so even 
normal human can (more or less) understand things that are complex. 
(Paper and pencil visualisation is another marvelous tool to reduce 
complexity which I tend to use when I get stuck ;-) .)


> I think this, really, is a fundamental question : "On what criterion
> should we choose defaults ?"
> 
> Here are some of my thoughts :
>  -  pushing educational ambition in default settings, really, is a big
> mistake. You want to educate, so improve tutorial, improve
> documentation, make more interactive tutorials. But do *not*
> deliberately harden the way for beginners.
>   -  It should *never* be a target make the default set so that gurus
> here can minimize the size of their .emacs, ideally having a void
> .emacs. Beginners should be comfortable using emacs, even with a void
> .emacs. Not advanced users.

(global-set-key [(control ?c) ?e] (lambda () (interactive) (find-file 
"~/.emacs")))

>   - never compromise the wonderfull ability of emacs to be fully
> customizable ( I do not worry too much about this one ;)
> 
> What are yours ?

I agree with you and with RMS when he wrote:

"In Eclipse, these features are very visible and they "just work".
It would be good if that were true in Emacs also."


> Regards,
> 
> -- Paul
> 
> 
> 




  reply	other threads:[~2008-03-24 20:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 152+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-03-23 23:00 Transient Mark Mode on by default Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 10:15 ` Tassilo Horn
2008-03-24 11:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-24 13:06   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-24 13:28   ` Tassilo Horn
2008-03-24 13:57   ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-24 15:05   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 15:15     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 20:09     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-24 20:32       ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 21:02         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 18:31           ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 19:19             ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-30 19:34               ` Peter Danenberg
2008-03-30 19:42               ` paul r
2008-03-30 19:47                 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:24                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-30 20:29                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:37                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-31  3:10                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  7:48                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-31  9:42                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  9:18                         ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-30 21:51                   ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-30 22:16                   ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-31  7:46                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-31  8:00                       ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-31  8:07                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 19:45               ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:29                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-30 22:42                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-30 23:11                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-30 23:50               ` William Xu
2008-03-31  3:23                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  3:36                   ` William Xu
2008-03-31 16:25               ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-31 18:08                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-01  0:20                   ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-01  0:40                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-04-01  1:24                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-01  1:26                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-04-01  6:14                       ` David Kastrup
2008-04-01 21:34                         ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 13:53                           ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-02 16:27                             ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 17:34                             ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 18:05                               ` Drew Adams
2008-04-02 22:07                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 20:27                               ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 21:29                                 ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-06 10:09                           ` cua-selection-mode by default (was: Transient Mark Mode on by default) David Kastrup
2008-04-01 21:04                       ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Richard Stallman
2008-04-01 21:05                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-01 21:53                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-02  7:45                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-24 22:34         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  1:45       ` Bastien
2008-03-25  1:41     ` Bastien
2008-03-24 17:28   ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-24 19:54     ` paul r
2008-03-24 20:36       ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 20:57         ` paul r
2008-03-24 21:04           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 21:42             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 21:23           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-29  9:18             ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-24 22:28           ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 23:01             ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:11             ` paul r
2008-03-24 23:34               ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:44                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 23:57                 ` paul r
2008-03-25  1:54       ` Bastien
2008-03-25 11:25         ` paul r
2008-03-25 23:49           ` Bastien
2008-03-26  8:49             ` paul r
2008-03-24 22:15     ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-24 22:47       ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Drew Adams
2008-03-24 23:29         ` paul r
2008-03-24 23:33           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  7:37           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25  2:06         ` Honoring traditional defaults Bastien
2008-03-25  2:23           ` Bastien
2008-03-25  3:00           ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-25  5:23         ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  7:21           ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode onbydefault] Drew Adams
2008-03-25 19:36             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25 21:38         ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 21:42           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 22:26           ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient MarkMode " Drew Adams
2008-03-25 23:53             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-26  1:49               ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25 22:28           ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient Mark Mode " paul r
2008-03-25 23:31             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-31 16:24             ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-31 21:12               ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-04-02  2:53                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 11:15                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-31 22:06               ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:22       ` Honoring traditional defaults Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 23:38         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 12:23           ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-25  5:17         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  0:12       ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 20:53       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 21:00         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-26  1:55         ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-26  7:01           ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Drew Adams
2008-03-26  6:54         ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-29  9:52       ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-24 18:40   ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 19:09     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 20:16       ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 20:40         ` paul r
2008-03-24 20:55           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) [this message]
2008-03-25  3:21           ` Evans Winner
2008-03-24 20:46         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 21:47       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25  0:29         ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  0:38           ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  8:16           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-24 22:27       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  0:07         ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  1:50       ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-25  4:06         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-25  7:07           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  7:23             ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25 13:24               ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25 13:36             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-25 14:19               ` Drew Adams
2008-03-26  4:47           ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-27  2:53             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-27 14:08               ` paul r
2008-03-25  7:14         ` Jan Djärv
2008-03-25 12:37           ` René Kyllingstad
2008-03-24 22:10     ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:44       ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-25  0:39         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-25  1:17           ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-25  3:07             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  7:07               ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  8:28       ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25 21:01         ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-26  0:50           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25  2:12     ` Bastien
2008-03-25  2:50       ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-29  9:01   ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-31 22:48     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-04-01  0:14       ` Sebastian Rose
2008-04-01  1:09         ` Mike Mattie
2008-04-01  1:16         ` Mike Mattie
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-04-01 11:29 Robert J. Chassell

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