Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Richard Stallman]

    A number of people were questioning why are we changing icons.

I do not insist that we change.  And if we change,
I do not insist we pick one of these two.

However, it seems that the pen convention is spreading,
so adopting it seems useful.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

  >     A number of people were questioning why are we changing icons.
  > 
  > I do not insist that we change.  And if we change, I do not insist
  > we pick one of these two.

OK, so let's find a way to move forward with this.

One of the most sensible comments that was made about the icons was that
we had a different icon for each major version.  We can use the proposed
icon for emacs-23.

Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing to
work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look really good,
let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We have to show some
goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine the icon until 23.1 is
released.

Does this sound like a sensible plan?

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
> Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing to
> work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look really good,
> let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We have to show some
> goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine the icon until 23.1 is
> released.
>
> Does this sound like a sensible plan?

Seems OK to me.

BTW, I'm currently using the "old" version of the "new" icon
(etc/images/iconsemacs256_mac.png"), and I find that I rather like the
position of the horns in that (they look like an "M", not an "E", but
mostly they look like Gnu horns).  Somehow much more friendly and funky
looking than the more "Eish" appearance in the latest versions you
posted.

At my current icon size though, the pen isn't even recognizable as a
stick or anything, it just looks like a stain in the corner...  maybe
changing the pen color would help (I think your new versions had a more
brown pen).

-Miles

-- 
Erudition, n. Dust shaken out of a book into an empty skull.

RE: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Drew Adams]

>   >     A number of people were questioning why are we changing icons.
>   > 
>   > I do not insist that we change.  And if we change, I do not insist
>   > we pick one of these two.
> 
> OK, so let's find a way to move forward with this.
> 
> One of the most sensible comments that was made about the 
> icons was that we had a different icon for each major version.
> We can use the proposed icon for emacs-23.
> 
> Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing
> to work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look 
> really good, let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We
> have to show some goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine
> the icon until 23.1 is released.
> 
> Does this sound like a sensible plan?

Well, let's see.

I just reread the entire thread. There were many messages, but most of their
content was not an expression of a preference for either #1 or #2. In terms
of "voting", the most common sentiment was that we should not change at all.
And much of the thread diverged into pleasantries about large screens and
such. There was little preference expressed for #1 or #2, considering the
size of the thread.

Here's a summary of those who did compare #1 with #2 or express a
preference. Some of these same people also prefer not to change, however.

Prefer #1 (emacs_128.png)
-------------------------

 Jan     (no reason given)
 Bastien (because it goes up, not down)
 Miles   (because #2 is unbalanced and cramped)

Prefer #2 (emacs_128-2.png)
---------------------------

 Drew (graphic movement is what a hand would write;
       letters slant to right;
       horns are more recognizable)

 David (horns are more recognizable)

On the fence (pros and cons discussed, but no real preference)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Tassilo (#1 cleaner, but can't see the horns;
         #2 generally better, but wants pen inclined more)

Thomas Lord (#1 is full of fear; #2 is intense)

Both Tassilo and David were somewhat ambivalent. David seemed to prefer #2
overall. Tassilo seemed to prefer #2 if some modifications are made.


So, I don't think it's accurate that #1 "leads by one vote". A fair
assessment of the discussion reaches the conclusion that most people
questioned changing the icon at all or suggested changes to #1 or #2.

In any case, if you count only the few people who expressed a preference,
that's a pretty small sample. What's the hurry? Just post the candidates
somewhere and let people comment on them at that location (instead of
filling this list).

When we do need to choose one (possibly for Emacs 23 or 24), then you can
summarize the discussion. Meanwhile, the artist can perhaps think about
taking some of the suggestions into account. All of this dialog can take
place wherever the icons are posted (e.g. a wiki).

Speaking of the artist, which version does s?he prefer, and why? What does
s?he think of the suggestions? We haven't heard from the artist, have we?

I also don't know what you mean by "We have to show some goodwill here." Can
you elaborate on the urgency and the goodwill problem?

 - Drew, who has no real problem with #1 or #2
         or the notebook or the mushroom or the sink or...

P.S. I don't think a pen is any more "standard" than a notebook as a
representation of an editor, if that's a consideration.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Dan Nicolaescu]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

  > >   >     A number of people were questioning why are we changing icons.
  > >   > 
  > >   > I do not insist that we change.  And if we change, I do not insist
  > >   > we pick one of these two.
  > > 
  > > OK, so let's find a way to move forward with this.
  > > 
  > > One of the most sensible comments that was made about the 
  > > icons was that we had a different icon for each major version.
  > > We can use the proposed icon for emacs-23.
  > > 
  > > Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing
  > > to work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look 
  > > really good, let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We
  > > have to show some goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine
  > > the icon until 23.1 is released.
  > > 
  > > Does this sound like a sensible plan?
  > 
  > Well, let's see.
  > 
[snip vote tallying]

I also got votes by private email from people that felt that adding yet
another message to the list is not a good idea.

  > In any case, if you count only the few people who expressed a preference,
  > that's a pretty small sample. What's the hurry? Just post the candidates
  > somewhere and let people comment on them at that location (instead of
  > filling this list).

The hurry is what stated in my message: "let's find a way to move
forward with this".  What you are asking for does not qualify for moving
forward, yet more discussion is unlikely to bring anything that has not
been said already, in other words, going that way is not productive.

  > Speaking of the artist, which version does s?he prefer, and why? What does
  > s?he think of the suggestions? We haven't heard from the artist, have we?

I don't think the artist (Kentaro Ohkouchi) speaks English. All the
communication has been through Seiji Zenitani.

  > I also don't know what you mean by "We have to show some goodwill here." Can
  > you elaborate on the urgency and the goodwill problem?

Let's see, if I was to put myself in the shoes of the artist I would
think something like this: "I've done all this work, is it useful or not? 
Is it worth it to invest even more of my time doing this?"
So yes, out of respect for the work that has been done, it would be nice
if we could do something about this.

Again, this discussion has been going on for long enough, a concrete
plan to go forward has been proposed.   I would like to urge anyone
thinking to add more to this discussion that before doing that first ask
yourself a question: "Does my message help get this thing done?"

Thanks

        --dan


PS: The version currently in CVS was disliked by RMS because the "M"
looks like a moustache.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[David Kastrup]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Let's see, if I was to put myself in the shoes of the artist I would
> think something like this: "I've done all this work, is it useful or
> not?  Is it worth it to invest even more of my time doing this?"  So
> yes, out of respect for the work that has been done, it would be nice
> if we could do something about this.

How about letting him read the comments?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Nick Roberts]

 > Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing to
 > work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look really good,
 > let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We have to show some
 > goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine the icon until 23.1 is
 > released.

I don't feel that strongly about the choice of icon but I'm not sure I
understand what you mean by goodwill.  Are you suggesting the the artist won't
create any more icons if we don't accept the one for Emacs?  I don't think this
choice should be linked with the creation of any possible future icons.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

  >  > Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing to
  >  > work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look really good,
  >  > let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).  We have to show some
  >  > goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine the icon until 23.1 is
  >  > released.
  > 
  > I don't feel that strongly about the choice of icon but I'm not sure I
  > understand what you mean by goodwill.  Are you suggesting the the artist won't
  > create any more icons if we don't accept the one for Emacs?  I don't think this
  > choice should be linked with the creation of any possible future icons.

No I'm not, I explained that in another message that just crossed yours ... 

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[David Kastrup]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>   >     A number of people were questioning why are we changing icons.
>   > 
>   > I do not insist that we change.  And if we change, I do not insist
>   > we pick one of these two.
>
> OK, so let's find a way to move forward with this.
>
> One of the most sensible comments that was made about the icons was that
> we had a different icon for each major version.  We can use the proposed
> icon for emacs-23.
>
> Given that we don't really have an overabundance of artists willing to
> work on things like this, and that the proposed icons look really good,
> let's check in version 1 (it leads by one vote).

Which shows that both are bad compromises and the good solution would be
in the middle, as mentioned several times.

> We have to show some goodwill here.  There's enough time to refine the
> icon until 23.1 is released.
>
> Does this sound like a sensible plan?

If it is really impossible to give the artist the constructive feedback
about the comments voiced here, I don't see how the "goodwill" is going
to reach him either.  Have you at least _tried_ directing some of the
comments back to him or letting him read this thread?  Or is he to be
kept in the dark and we should just pick from whatever he delivers
without giving feedback?  Do you really think that this is an effective
manner of working?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Richard Stallman]

    One of the most sensible comments that was made about the icons was that
    we had a different icon for each major version.  We can use the proposed
    icon for emacs-23.

There is no requirement to change icons just because it will be a new
Emacs major version.  All the past icon changes were made because, at
least in the opinion of the maintainer who installed the change, the
new icon was better.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

  > Ok, let's use style 2 of the new icon.


I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon and
installed it. 

Thank you for your effort Ohkouchi-san!


The whole package can be found at:
http://osdn.dl.sourceforge.jp/macemacsjp/29728/EmacsIconCollections-3.1.tar.gz

The "source" files for the icon are included in there too.  What is the
best place to install those?

Also the xbm format of the icon in emacs/src/gnu.h needs to be updated.
How is that done?

Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Stefan Monnier]

> Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
> emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.

Why choose: "gnu-icon.h"


        Stefan

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
>> emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.
>>     
>
> Why choose: "gnu-icon.h"
>   
But it's not the GNU icon, it's the Emacs icon. At one time the icon was 
a GNU head, so maybe that is where the filename comes from.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
>>> emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.
>> Why choose: "gnu-icon.h"
> But it's not the GNU icon, it's the Emacs icon. At one time the icon was
> a GNU head, so maybe that is where the filename comes from.

Then how about ....drumroll.... emacs-icon.h?


        Stefan

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>>>> Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
>>>> emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.
>>> Why choose: "gnu-icon.h"
>> But it's not the GNU icon, it's the Emacs icon. At one time the icon was
>> a GNU head, so maybe that is where the filename comes from.
>
> Then how about ....drumroll.... emacs-icon.h?

<cymbal crash>
A poor choice, because `make clean' in src/ deletes emacs-*.

(And what else would src/icon.h in the Emacs directory be, if not the
Emacs icon?)

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Then how about ....drumroll.... emacs-icon.h?
> <cymbal crash>
> A poor choice, because `make clean' in src/ deletes emacs-*.

...second drumroll... icon-emacs.h ?

> (And what else would src/icon.h in the Emacs directory be, if not the
> Emacs icon?)

Any other of the many icons used by Emacs?


        Stefan

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> (And what else would src/icon.h in the Emacs directory be, if not the
>> Emacs icon?)
>>     
>
> Any other of the many icons used by Emacs?
>   

I was thinking a header file for general icon support within Emacs.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Glenn Morris]

Jason Rumney wrote:

> Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> (And what else would src/icon.h in the Emacs directory be, if not the
>>> Emacs icon?)
>>>     
>>
>> Any other of the many icons used by Emacs?
>>   
>
> I was thinking a header file for general icon support within Emacs.

Oh, alright then, you win :)

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> ...second drumroll... icon-emacs.h ?

If you like.

>> (And what else would src/icon.h in the Emacs directory be, if not the
>> Emacs icon?)
>
> Any other of the many icons used by Emacs?

Of which the default might reasonably just be called icon.h?

ls src/*icon* | wc -l
1

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Any other of the many icons used by Emacs?

> Of which the default might reasonably just be called icon.h?

What do you mean "the default"?  Do you mean the arrow icons in the
fringes? or the icons in the toolbar?  There are many different icons in
use in Emacs.  "The Emacs icon" is just one of them.


        Stefan

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon and
> installed it. 
>   

The 32x32 icon only has 1 bit transparency, while all other sizes have 8 
bit alpha channels.
As that is the default size on Windows XP, the Emacs icon looks ugly 
next to other modern icons.

Also, the Windows icon needs lower depth versions for older versions of 
Windows. The previous icon had 24 bit color, 8 bit transparency and 8 
bit color 1 bit transparency versions of 48x48, 32x32 and 16x16. I 
wouldn't bother with a lower depth version of the 256x256 version of the 
new icon though.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon and
> installed it. 
>   

In addition to the points raised before, the 128x128 icon seems to have 
been checked in as text. "cvs admin -kb emacs.png" in that directory 
should fix it. The others are OK, probably because they already existed 
with the binary flag set.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Kentaro Ohkouchi]

>  I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon and
>  installed it.
>
>  Thank you for your effort Ohkouchi-san!

I wish to express my gratitude to everybody who cooperated in making the icons.

Thank you very much!

--
Kentaro Ohkouchi <nanasess@fsm.ne.jp>

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jan Djärv]

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There is something wrong with the svg versions.  Safari complains:

error on line 10 at column 67: Entity 'ns_graphs' not defined

for both svg versions.  Also, the document.svg contains funny lines (see 
screenshot).

	Jan D.


Dan Nicolaescu skrev:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>   > Ok, let's use style 2 of the new icon.
> 
> 
> I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon and
> installed it. 
> 
> Thank you for your effort Ohkouchi-san!
> 
> 
> The whole package can be found at:
> http://osdn.dl.sourceforge.jp/macemacsjp/29728/EmacsIconCollections-3.1.tar.gz
> 
> The "source" files for the icon are included in there too.  What is the
> best place to install those?
> 
> Also the xbm format of the icon in emacs/src/gnu.h needs to be updated.
> How is that done?
> 
> Also, it would be better to rename emacs/src/gnu.h to something like
> emacs/src/icon.h so that it is more obvious what that file is used for.
> 
> 

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Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Angelo Graziosi]

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Dan Nicolaescu wrote:

  > I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon
  > and installed it.

On Cygwin the result is *horrible* !

Perhaps the old icon is not the best but it looks better, in my opinion.


Cheers,
     Angelo.


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Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>
>  > I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon
>  > and installed it.
>
> On Cygwin the result is *horrible* !

I think Cygwin is reducing the depth. Lower depth versions of the icons 
should fix that.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Angelo Graziosi]

Jason Rumney ha scritto:
> Angelo Graziosi wrote:
>> Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>>
>>  > I have finally received the complete set of formats for the new icon
>>  > and installed it.
>>
>> On Cygwin the result is *horrible* !
> 
> I think Cygwin is reducing the depth. Lower depth versions of the icons 
> should fix that.
> 

Can I do something or should I wait for a fix in CVS ?

Thanks,
    Angelo.

---
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus.

Re: new version of the proposed emacs icons

[Jason Rumney]

Angelo Graziosi wrote:
>>>
>>> On Cygwin the result is *horrible* !
>
> Can I do something or should I wait for a fix in CVS ?

I think you'll need to wait for a fix in Cygwin. The old icon also shows 
the corrupted background, as do other applications' icons. It is not as 
obvious on the old 16x16 icon, since there isn't much background showing.