From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: Re: Emacs: a 21st century text-editor Date: 15 Mar 2005 01:07:40 +0100 Organization: muc.de e.V. -- private internet access Message-ID: <47951d.27.ln@acm.acm> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1110847305 3076 80.91.229.2 (15 Mar 2005 00:41:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:41:45 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 15 01:41:44 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DB04I-0007Ju-4X for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:37:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DB0K4-0006lX-J5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:54:12 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DB0DX-0004eU-Q9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:47:28 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DB0DR-0004ag-BM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:47:22 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DB0DQ-0004XI-84 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:47:20 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DAzt1-0004Ux-5w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:26:15 -0500 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DAzt1-0004kN-1y for gnu-emacs-bug@ftp.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:26:15 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.34) id 1DAzb6-0003EN-Ne for gnu-emacs-bug@ftp.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:07:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [193.149.48.2] (helo=marvin.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DAzb6-0003EF-37 for gnu-emacs-bug@ftp.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:07:44 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 72870 invoked by uid 8); 15 Mar 2005 00:07:40 -0000 Original-To: gnu-emacs-bug@prep.ai.mit.edu Original-Path: not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug Original-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:11:16 +0000 Original-Lines: 104 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: acm.muc.de Original-X-Trace: marvin.muc.de 1110845260 72866 193.149.49.134 (15 Mar 2005 00:07:40 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Mar 2005 00:07:40 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.5-20010409 ("One More Nightmare") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686)) X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:10923 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.bugs:10923 Christopher G D Tipper wrote on Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:04:02 -0000: > Emacs: a 21st century text-editor > I have been using emacs for over a year now, and value its power and > flexibility. However, I cannot get used to some idiosyncrasies .... Congratulations on spelling that word correctly! I'll bet you can write "supersede", too. ;-) > .... of its behaviour which seem to me to be artifacts of its heritage, > rather than components of a piece of modern software. What I am talking > about is nothing to do with any superficial features, such as the > complex interface nor its architecture. It just seems to be stuck in > the 20th century with no sign of any attempt at modernisation. Hmmm. Not all answers to that are polite. Possibly the best is that Emacs doesn't follow fashion, it follows functionality. Not everything modern in user interface design is good, not by a long chalk. Not everything that is good for a casual user is good for a power user. Emacs is optimised for power users. > 1 Text-wrapping. Text wrapping is a limitation, and it would be nice > to scroll past the edge of the screen. This is particularly acute in > my case editing XSLT scripts where line-breaks become a > presentational issue. Sometimes I actually need to compose documents > with 250 columns, and I don't appreciate emacs telling me otherwise. I think you mean it would be nice to be _able_ to set up to scroll past the edge of the screen. Some people prefer long lines to wrap on the display (i.e. without newlines), some prefer auto-filling (i.e. with newlines). There's various settings you can set for this. > 2 Shell open. Emacs really ought to be able recognise when the shell > is requesting it to open a file. Gnu-client should be unnecessary in > a modern application. > 3 Tabbed buffers. Open buffers should be easily visible in a tabbed > layout below the menu, in the manner of XEmacs. Again, this is personal taste. Such a feature would be of no help to me, and I strongly dislike such distractions on my screen. But I agree that such a feature as an option would be a good thing. > A proper history list would help here so that documents are > persistent across sessions. What do you mean by a "history list", and what does "proper" mean. desktop.el does a not too bad job. > 4 File Dialogs. I use dlgopen.el on Windows, which gets rid of the > most serious interface issue of all, the lack of modern file > dialogs. It wouldn't be rocket-science to adapt the interface to > support this. XEmacs file dialogs are unusable IMHO. Why is that a serious interface issue? How are modern file dialogues better? Too me, dialog boxes are like explosions in my face, so I disable them as much as possible. What's wrong with what Emacs currently offers? > 5 Paste replaces edit. "edit"? > This idea that when I paste I end up with both the replacement text > and the old text does not belong in the modern idiom. What do you mean by "the old text" when pasting? Do you mean that you want to mark some text, then replace it with some other text with a single key-sequence? How is this better than deleting text then yanking other text? It seems to me more a matter of personal taste. Many "modern" proprietary programs drive me to distraction in that moving the cursor to a field on the screen marks its contents in such a way that pressing any key within reach of the home position deletes the entire field. As for "not belonging in the modern idiom", I thank my deity and RMS (not necessarily in that order ;-) that Emacs retains tried and tested old stuff. > This is a real versioning issue ... What do you mean by "versioning issue"? > ... when the replacement text scrolls past the bottom of the screen. I > think this is just an old-fashioned feature that never got updated. The thing is, there are _lots_ of different ways people work. What is so obviously the Right Thing to you is absolute purgatory for others (like me). I use Emacs, by choice, on a 134 x 41 character console screen rather than a GUI, so as to avoid mice, dialog boxes, menus, scroll-bars, as well as not having to mess with fonts and so on. The solution is to provide enough different ways of working so that everybody can find their optimum setup. I have a feeling that Emacs can be customized nearer to what you want than you've so far found out. > Best wishes, > Christopher Tipper And to yourself, Sir! -- Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter (like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").