From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: What Modern Cooperation Looks Like Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:54:14 -0800 Message-ID: <4789DFC6.3070908@emf.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1200212457 5682 80.91.229.12 (13 Jan 2008 08:20:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:20:57 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 13 09:21:19 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JDy5m-0003Ml-BD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:21:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDy5O-0004fI-60 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:54 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JDy5I-0004bf-K3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:48 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JDy5D-0004Xo-Tz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:47 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDy5D-0004XU-Ln for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JDy59-0002US-Sb; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.42inc.com ([205.149.0.25]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JDy58-0005xa-Mo; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:39 -0500 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.5 X-TFF-CGPSA-Filter-42inc: Scanned X-42-Virus-Scanned: by 42 Antivirus -- Found to be clean. Original-Received: from [69.236.97.184] (account lord@emf.net HELO [192.168.1.64]) by mail.42inc.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPA id 19213321; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:20:24 -0800 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060808) X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:86832 Archived-At: In email, and then on another list, and then in email arising from that other list, I was drawn into the discussion about the development tools and practices of the Emacs project. During none of that did I look back at the emacs-devel threads. This was a side discussion, standing on its own, in relation to a document about revision control that ESR is working on. I found it to be a very unpleasant discussion and exited fairly quickly. I did not, in the end, feel that my opinions or participation had been treated respectfully (other than by a friend who first suggested that I be asked to join the conversation). I did not have the impression that my words were being read particularly carefully by ESR. I presume that he intended respect and tried to point out the problems, but then they got immediately worse instead. I was advised in that discussion, by ESR, to refrain from getting too much into "politics" because I spoke about about some political and economic factors that I think are relevant to the questions I was posed. I advised backing up from the project of advocating tools to a project of seriously evaluating needs -- treating the Emacs project as a "customer" rather than as a "problem" -- and this part of what I said seems to have gone all but ignored (my friend being an exception). I feel strongly that my character was improperly attacked during this discussion, and in a public forum, and by at least one person in a position to unduly influence public opinion about me. And then, after all of that, I sampled the emacs-devel threads related to all of this and I saw something that filled me with a sense of recognition. I think I have seen a similar social dynamic arise in my own work on GNU Guile and then GNU Arch. It occurs to me, quite simply, that a cooperative and intellectually sound approach to helping the Emacs project with tools expertise would look nothing at all like the discussion on emacs-devel, or the discussion on this other list. There is simply no good reason for this kind of hand-waving, arm-twisting, flying accusations, assaults on character, or incitement of strife. The technical issues don't merit it. -t