From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: martin rudalics Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "CHANGED outside Customize" in frames customization group Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:07:43 +0100 Message-ID: <4777A62F.9080009@gmx.at> References: <477616F3.8000003@gmx.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199023674 30061 80.91.229.12 (30 Dec 2007 14:07:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:07:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 30 15:08:08 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J8yph-0006EA-Gw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:08:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8ypM-0006Fb-2h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:07:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J8ypI-0006Eh-JE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:07:40 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J8ypH-0006D0-4A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:07:40 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8ypG-0006Cp-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:07:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J8ypG-0006Mi-MS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:07:39 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Dec 2007 14:07:37 -0000 Original-Received: from N795P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.43.76]) [62.47.43.76] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 30 Dec 2007 15:07:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+nVod03L6nrqQ3yqOZWowZxAnhf3Bicsihglft4p lCzxTB2UG9uavi User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en In-Reply-To: X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85681 Archived-At: > default-frame-alist: Hide Value > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. > > Can you fix this by calling custom-reevaluate-setting > in the appropriate place in startup.el? > (With the other calls to it.) IIUC `custom-reevaluate-setting' can be used to set a variable after some environment value has been established as for `blink-cursor-mode'. The situation seems completely different for `default-frame-alist'. I know people object, but as it's currently used this variable is simply not suited for customization. The first reason is immediately visible when starting Emacs without your .emacs. The value is here: ((left-fringe) (right-fringe) (menu-bar-lines . 1) (tool-bar-lines . 1)) I know how to get rid of the -fringe entries. But I don't know what to do with the -line entries (which are BTW already there in Emacs 21). Delete them in the customization buffer, save your settings, restart Emacs, and here they are again. A second reason is the function `modify-all-frames-parameters'. This function may set `default-frame-alist'. Customize `tool-bar-mode' or `fringe-mode' and you will change your `default-frame-alist' settings. These issues are hardly noticeable for most of us. Whatever approach we've chosen to set up this variable, we're hardly going to change its value often. A novice user, however, will be confronted with a not very motivating advice when starting to customize the appearance of frames.