From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xah Lee Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode? Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <4686f80e-74eb-4ebb-bec4-dff587f3a510@a6g2000prm.googlegroups.com> References: <0ded5ecd-f5f6-4a8e-9d19-f61bf0401022@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <86hcad9ar4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <0bb45e96-f9f3-4451-a457-004bb5930c76@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <86wsj66sby.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6a01ec87-795c-4306-a698-d6d6ba85afdd@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217270458 15825 80.91.229.12 (28 Jul 2008 18:40:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:40:58 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 28 20:41:46 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KNXf3-00067w-4c for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:41:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39805 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNXe8-0003Td-DC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:40:36 -0400 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!a6g2000prm.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 188 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.97.120 Original-X-Trace: posting.google.com 1217266962 22642 127.0.0.1 (28 Jul 2008 17:42:42 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:42:42 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: a6g2000prm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=24.6.97.120; posting-account=qPxGtQkAAADb6PWdLGiWVucht1ZDR6fn User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_4_11; en) AppleWebKit/525.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Safari/525.22, gzip(gfe), gzip(gfe) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:160645 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:55994 Archived-At: Xah wrote: =C2=ABThere is basically no cost to users. Any new user will immediately understand =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D and perhaps feel thi= s is a great improvement.=C2=BB Lennart Borgman wrote: =C2=ABHow do you know there is no cost to users? Why do you think they immediately understand "Alt+"?=C2=BB =E2=80=9Cif it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as = it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Tweedledee in Alice In Wo= nderland. haha. But seriously, because the user can look at the keyboard, see the a key with =E2=80=9CAlt=E2=80=9D printed on it. See my expanded, more coherent argument on this here: =E2=80=9CEmacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA Notation vs Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2= =80=BA Notation=E2=80=9D http://xahlee.org//emacs/modernization_meta_key.html > In the setup I recommend on w32 that will mean that they should type > "Windows-key + ". > > I think I told you this before. You are the author of the emacs distro for windows known as EmacsW32 right? gosh, the few times i tried to find out its author, it's rather not straight forward. I rather hope you would just put your name on the front page. These days, perhaps due to OpenSource and wiki-this-that's thought invasion, people don't put their names up front anymore. Anytime i tried to find out the author of a blog, or some emacs package or software, it's often not straight forward. Perhaps 50% caused by wanting to remain anonymous and security, 50% caused by absurd OpenSource movement induced moral ethic of refraining from taking proper credit, and 50% by fear of actually taking responsibility. (this is in contrast to my life style, where i: =E2=98=85 N= ot afraid to say things. (haha, maybe too loud) =E2=98=85 Take proper credit. = =E2=98=85 Take responsibility.) anyway, although i have met you online maybe since a year ago (recall once you initiated a email exchange) and have linked to your site (see http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_basics.html ), but only this week i thought to myself in these threads: =E2=80=9Chey, aint't that the emacsw32= =E2=80=9D guy? kk, sorry for rambling. Back to topic... well, actually i'm surprised that you disagree with some of my points. Although i haven't used your emacsw32 (cause i don't have Windows now), but i've read that you were frustrated by emacs's usibility and that's why you made emacsw32. For example, i believe the following from http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsW32 is written by you: =C2=ABI may be the only person on this planet who thinks that it is too difficult to begin using Emacs on MS Windows. However I did find some things unnecessarily difficult.=C2=BB So, i was surprised you disagree with some of my emacs modernization suggestions. Ok, more specifically, in our topic here, you want the Alt key to behave like other Windows apps. Namely, it invokes menu when pressed by itself, and invoke command when pressed together with another key. In other words, conforming to Window's UI guidelines. As you know, on Apple's OSX, it follows a slightly different GUI guideline. In particular, in OSX there's no such key like Window's Alt that invokes a menu by itself... (traditinoally, Windows UI is designed such that users can operate the computer by keyboard alone without a mouse; but traditionlly Apple doesn't do this unless you count turning keypad into a pointing device... but since about ~2004 in OSX Apple started to have a bunch of keys (usually Ctrl+Fn) to navigate GUI elements... In short, how user uses keyboard to operate the computer follows quite a different model than on Windows) Anyway, i'm getting quite long winded on this since the Apple and Windows model of keyboard navigation on UI is different and has different history. But the point i want to make is that, when we consider modernization of emacs, w can create one Windows Emacs that follows Window's way, one Apple Emacs distro that follows Apple's way. Or, we can modernize emacs based on emacs own unique way. Am i getting confused? =3D(^_^)=3D if i think correctly, you always stands by the Windows way. So, in your opinion, my suggestion for using the notation =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9ke= y=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D for emacs's =E2=80=9CM-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D is not good because that'= s incompatible with the Window's way of pressing Alt by itself to invoke graphical menu. Yes i can see that'd be a problem. But your Windows way is a nutcase, and is not compatible with emacs tradition anyway. LOLz! I hope emacs developers here will flame you to death first. Of course, we are getting onto a philosophical issue of whether to have one's own interface or follow one of the major OS. The Java platform tried to force its own interface (e.g. widgets looks and feel), but basically failed. When a java program runs on Windows, people want it to look and feel like Windows. When it runs on Mac, people want it to look and feel like Mac. Basically, the crucial factor is just market share. People are habituated with whatever they are. They dont want to change. Java tried to squeeze its UI look and feel starting with 0% market share into the meaty Windows UI or Mac UI; sure it fails. However, with emacs, i think emacs has a chance to stand on its own. Because, as you know, emacs precedes Windows or Mac. So, in the end, i just think your Alt=3D=E2=80=9Cmenu invoke=E2=80=9D philo= sophy on the whole must be sacrifised. But no worries, even we adapt the notation =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80= =BA=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CM-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D in emacs manual, your emacsW32 really wouldn't suffer a hitch. Because, in either case, you are modifier emacs's default behavier anyway. Right now, you customized emacs in your distro so that Meta is no longer default to Alt, but default to the WindowKey, while the Alt invoke menu. But if we adopt the shortcut notation change as i suggested, you don't need to change a single line in your emacsW32 customization, just the philosophy of what has been customized. OK, sorry i punched my keyboad too fast for too long. Most of these i wrote before actually. Here's a excerpt from http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization.html ------------------------------------ Also, Aquamacs changes emacs to conform to Apple's user interface guidelines as much as possible. For example, besides changing the many shortcuts, Aquamacs open each file in a new window (i.e. what emacs calls frame). So, dired is opened in its own window. =E2=80=9Cshell-command= =E2=80=9D is opened in a new window. Emacs info files (C-h i) is opened in a new window. Using the graphical menu =E2=80=9CHelp:Aquamacs Help=E2=80=9D launc= hes Apple's help application. Aquamacs makes emacs palpable for Mac users, but in many ways, Aquamacs imposes a major change of operation for people already familiar with emacs. Its modernization of emacs, has priority with Mac application's system of operation over emacs system of operation. Aquamacs is only a Mac application. Its user interface changes, is not wholly compatible with Microsoft Windows's user interface guidelines in minor details. (in particular, shortcut modifiers are different (Ctrl vs Cmd), and some shortcut keys differ) 90% of computer users world wide are familiar with Window's user interface and are using PC keyboards. If we consider improving emacs's user interface, then it is important to consider the familarity of vast majority of computer users. In summary, when we consider modernization, we could create a version for Mac, a version for Windows, each follows as much as possible of each operating system's user interface guidelines. Alternatively, we can consider modernization based on emacs's unique ways of operation (as opposed changing emacs to comform to a particular company's UI standard that are currently most popular). -------------------------- for some detailed analysis of the difference of modifier keys usage and history between Win and Mac, see: Difference Between Apple and PC keyboards http://xahlee.org/emacs/apple_pc_kb_diff.html Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84