GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Austin Frank]

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Hi all!

Currently we can use the DEADLINE keyword to indicate a target date for
an item to be finished.  By my way of thinking, deadlines make sense for
externally imposed constraints.  I also try to set goals for myself for
when an item will be completed.  These are softer than deadlines, but
I think they could share the same semantics for creation, display, and
export.

Would it be possible to make `org-deadline-string' a list of strings
that get handled in the same way as DEADLINE is currently handled?  That
way I could do things like

* TODO write first chapter
  GOAL:  <2009-03-09 Mon>

* TODO submit manuscript
  GOAL:  <2009-05-15 Fri>
  DEADLINE:  <2009-06-01 Mon>

Where the first represents my own planning process and the second
contains my target completion date (trying to work ahead!) and the hard
constraint imposed by whoever I'm submitting to.  In all cases, I'd like
agenda notification as the date approaches, I'd like to know if I've
passed it by, and I'd like the option of including it in ical export.

Or maybe I should just learn to treat my GOALs like DEADLINEs and stop
letting myself off the hook so easily ;)

Do other people think about things this way?  Would you have a use for
a customizable list of keywords that all had the same semantics that
DEADLINE currently has?

Thanks for considering it,
/au

-- 
Austin Frank
http://aufrank.net
GPG Public Key (D7398C2F): http://aufrank.net/personal.asc

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Re: GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Shelagh Manton]

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:36:57 -0400, Austin Frank wrote:

> Hi all!
> 
> Currently we can use the DEADLINE keyword to indicate a target date for
> an item to be finished.  By my way of thinking, deadlines make sense for
> externally imposed constraints.  I also try to set goals for myself for
> when an item will be completed.  These are softer than deadlines, but I
> think they could share the same semantics for creation, display, and
> export.
> 
> Would it be possible to make `org-deadline-string' a list of strings
> that get handled in the same way as DEADLINE is currently handled?  That
> way I could do things like
> 
> * TODO write first chapter
>   GOAL:  <2009-03-09 Mon>
> 
> * TODO submit manuscript
>   GOAL:  <2009-05-15 Fri>
>   DEADLINE:  <2009-06-01 Mon>
> 
> Where the first represents my own planning process and the second
> contains my target completion date (trying to work ahead!) and the hard
> constraint imposed by whoever I'm submitting to.  In all cases, I'd like
> agenda notification as the date approaches, I'd like to know if I've
> passed it by, and I'd like the option of including it in ical export.
> 
> Or maybe I should just learn to treat my GOALs like DEADLINEs and stop
> letting myself off the hook so easily ;)
> 
> Do other people think about things this way?  Would you have a use for a
> customizable list of keywords that all had the same semantics that
> DEADLINE currently has?
> 
> Thanks for considering it,
> /au

I think this sounds like something I've wished for since I first found 
out about org-mode. Thank you for analysing it so succinctly.

I would use this if it could be done.


Shelagh

Re: GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Austin,

since you want to use the same semantics as for deadlines, i.e. the  
same warning period etc, this really is a psychological issue :-)

It is trouble to implement a new keyword or number of keywords.  New  
commands needed to insert this new keyowrd, for example, and many  
regular expressions to generalize.  What I would do if I was bothered  
by this would be

(setq org-deadline-string "DUE:")

which captures both the colors of DEADLINE and GOAL pretty well, I  
think.

In fact, I wish I had made this the default from beginning,
a much shorter and  nicer word.  Now it is too late to change this, I
am afraid.....

- Carsten

On Mar 8, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Austin Frank wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Currently we can use the DEADLINE keyword to indicate a target date  
> for
> an item to be finished.  By my way of thinking, deadlines make sense  
> for
> externally imposed constraints.  I also try to set goals for myself  
> for
> when an item will be completed.  These are softer than deadlines, but
> I think they could share the same semantics for creation, display, and
> export.
>
> Would it be possible to make `org-deadline-string' a list of strings
> that get handled in the same way as DEADLINE is currently handled?   
> That
> way I could do things like
>
> * TODO write first chapter
>  GOAL:  <2009-03-09 Mon>
>
> * TODO submit manuscript
>  GOAL:  <2009-05-15 Fri>
>  DEADLINE:  <2009-06-01 Mon>
>
> Where the first represents my own planning process and the second
> contains my target completion date (trying to work ahead!) and the  
> hard
> constraint imposed by whoever I'm submitting to.  In all cases, I'd  
> like
> agenda notification as the date approaches, I'd like to know if I've
> passed it by, and I'd like the option of including it in ical export.
>
> Or maybe I should just learn to treat my GOALs like DEADLINEs and stop
> letting myself off the hook so easily ;)
>
> Do other people think about things this way?  Would you have a use for
> a customizable list of keywords that all had the same semantics that
> DEADLINE currently has?
>
> Thanks for considering it,
> /au
>
> -- 
> Austin Frank
> http://aufrank.net
> GPG Public Key (D7398C2F): http://aufrank.net/personal.asc
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:

> (setq org-deadline-string "DUE:")
>
> which captures both the colors of DEADLINE and GOAL pretty well, I
> think.
>
> In fact, I wish I had made this the default from beginning,
> a much shorter and  nicer word.  Now it is too late to change this, I
> am afraid.....

Is it really too late?  Could you maybe make the REGEXP that matches the
deadline look for both DEADLINE: and DUE: but make new deadlines use
DUE:  ?

As long as you don't force everyone to s/DEADLINE:/DUE:/ in their
existing setup I don't think there's a huge impact with this change.

Just my two cents.

-Bernt

Re: GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Austin Frank]

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On Mon, Mar 09 2009, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> since you want to use the same semantics as for deadlines, i.e. the
> same warning period etc, this really is a psychological issue :-)

But isn't that why we have org-mode in the first place-- to help us
label our way out of these pesky psychological issues?  :P

> What I would do if I was bothered by this would be
>
> (setq org-deadline-string "DUE:")
>
> which captures both the colors of DEADLINE and GOAL pretty well, I
> think.

Yes, I will use this.

I think that the case I described where I wanted both a GOAL and a
DEADLINE for the same task can be handled reasonably well by creating
two different tasks and giving each a due date.  So instead of

* TODO submit manuscript
  GOAL: <optimistic date>
  DEADLINE: <hard deadline>

I can do

* TODO submit manuscript
  DUE: <optimistic date>

*** publisher deadline
    DUE: <hard deadline>


This way I have all of the information in one place, and both dates get
into the agenda.  The top level TODO and its due date represent my goal
for submitting.  The sub-heading isn't a TODO because I'm working on my
schedule, not theirs.  But, I put the hard deadline there just in case
my schedule and the official deadline get too close for comfort.  Also,
if I keep them close together, then follow mode helps me see both at the
same time.

I don't know if DEADLINE timestamps are supposed to be applied to
non-TODO headings, but it didn't seem to break anything, so I'm going to
go forward with this approach for now.

Thanks,
/au

-- 
Austin Frank
http://aufrank.net
GPG Public Key (D7398C2F): http://aufrank.net/personal.asc

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Re: GOAL keyword with DEADLINE semantics?

[Carsten Dominik]

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On Mar 9, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Bernt Hansen wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
>
>> (setq org-deadline-string "DUE:")
>>
>> which captures both the colors of DEADLINE and GOAL pretty well, I
>> think.
>>
>> In fact, I wish I had made this the default from beginning,
>> a much shorter and  nicer word.  Now it is too late to change this, I
>> am afraid.....
>
> Is it really too late?  Could you maybe make the REGEXP that matches  
> the
> deadline look for both DEADLINE: and DUE: but make new deadlines use
> DUE:  ?
>
> As long as you don't force everyone to s/DEADLINE:/DUE:/ in their
> existing setup I don't think there's a huge impact with this change.

I guess I meant it is too late to *only* change that variable.
You are right, in principle this could be done.  Which basically means
implementing Austin's proposal of allowing several deadline keywords.

But: it means changing quite a few regexps, not just one.  And it
will mean follow-up requests to have different fontification
for different DEADLINE keywords.  And different appearance
in the Agenda.  And adding the deadline keyword to the CSV export
of the agenda.  And doing everything the same for variations
on SCHEDULED.  And something I have not thought of yet... :-)

When I am in a good mood, maybe...

- Carsten

P.S.  Talking about mood: Ever seen a man in a bad mood?
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ds7OfXXi-c&feature=related



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