* gnu vs. xemacs @ 2006-12-27 11:46 H. 2006-12-27 12:57 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) ` (4 more replies) 0 siblings, 5 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: H. @ 2006-12-27 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over xemacs, or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, why you feel that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a beginner. All opinions welcome. For instance, perhaps these difference forks are good for different things...? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. @ 2006-12-27 12:57 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2006-12-27 13:10 ` Peter Dyballa ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2006-12-27 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs H. wrote: > I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over xemacs, > or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, why you feel > that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a beginner. All opinions > welcome. For instance, perhaps these difference forks are good for > different things...? See http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsAndXEmacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. 2006-12-27 12:57 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2006-12-27 13:10 ` Peter Dyballa 2006-12-27 13:59 ` Sven Bretfeld ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Peter Dyballa @ 2006-12-27 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 27.12.2006 um 12:46 schrieb H.: > I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over > xemacs, > or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, why you feel > that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a beginner. All opinions > welcome. For instance, perhaps these difference forks are good for > different things...? GNU Emacs uses the key bindings I am used to. It can be compiled as Carbon Emacs, X11 client in so many tastes, COCOA/OPENSTEP application, and as non-windowing programme for Terminal or xterm on Mac OS X. -- Greetings Pete “I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word.” - Donald E. Knuth, 2001-10-02 in Tübingen. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. 2006-12-27 12:57 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2006-12-27 13:10 ` Peter Dyballa @ 2006-12-27 13:59 ` Sven Bretfeld 2006-12-28 10:27 ` Ramprasad [not found] ` <mailman.2429.1167301573.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-27 19:52 ` David Kastrup 2006-12-28 14:36 ` insert name 4 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Sven Bretfeld @ 2006-12-27 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) When I started using Emacs one year ago I knew almost nothing. I was thinking XEmacs is Emacs for X-Window systems (like many people seem to do). So I installed it, mainly because I use LaTeX since many years and I was looking for a Linux editor as powerful as WinEdt which I had been using under MS-Windows. To my disappointment XEmacs was not able to handle all the utf8-characters I needed. It might be a matter of my too small knowledge at that time, but I couldn't get the diacritics needed for Sanskrit transcriptions to work. Somewhere I read that XEmacs doesn't fully support unicode representation. However, it worked immediately with GnuEmacs. Namely I need characters like underdotted t or n which represent certain Indian consonants spoken with the tongue bent backwards. Best wishes, Sven ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 13:59 ` Sven Bretfeld @ 2006-12-28 10:27 ` Ramprasad [not found] ` <mailman.2429.1167301573.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Ramprasad @ 2006-12-28 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 19:29, Sven Bretfeld wrote: > years and I was looking for a Linux editor as powerful as WinEdt which It's GNU/Linux system. Please read * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html - Ramprasad B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: gnu vs. xemacs [not found] ` <mailman.2429.1167301573.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-28 11:27 ` Tim X 2006-12-28 18:57 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2457.1167332268.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2006-12-28 11:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Ramprasad <ramprasad@gnu.org> writes: > On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 19:29, Sven Bretfeld wrote: > >> years and I was looking for a Linux editor as powerful as WinEdt which > > It's GNU/Linux system. > > Please read > > * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html > > * http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html > You don't think your being a bit pedantic do you? After all, Linux is what GNU/Linux is commonly called. You also have lots of other references out there which don't include the "GNU" part, such as The Linux Journal, the Linux Gazette, Linux Weekly news, linuxquestions.org, linuxkernel.org, etc etc. At least if your going to take the time to post a response, maybe add something for the OP in addition to correcting his colloquial use of Linux rather than the technically correct one. To the OP, my preferred editor is GNU Emacs rather than Xemacs because not all the packages I want to use are supported by Xemacs. In particular, there are some differences I've come across in the way that font locking is handled and some of the packages I use regularly don't work under Xemacs. I've also written a few of my own simple elisp packages and really couldn't be bothered adding a heap of code which checks to see which version you are running under and then take appropriate action to handle diffeences in functions or the arguments they take etc. I've also found the default settings in GNU Emacs to be more in line with what I expect/want. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-28 11:27 ` Tim X @ 2006-12-28 18:57 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2457.1167332268.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2006-12-28 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 781 bytes --] Tim X wrote: > You don't think your being a bit pedantic do you? After all, Linux is > what GNU/Linux is commonly called. You also have lots of other > references out there which don't include the "GNU" part, such as The > Linux Journal, the Linux Gazette, Linux Weekly news, > linuxquestions.org, linuxkernel.org, etc etc. > At least if your going to take the time to post a response, maybe add > something for the OP in addition to correcting his colloquial use of > Linux rather than the technically correct one. I don't think he's being pedantic, and the fact that the error is common does not mean it's insignificant. It's not only technically correct, it's ethically correct. As for the OP, I can't help since I've never used XEmacs. Matt Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: gnu vs. xemacs [not found] ` <mailman.2457.1167332268.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-28 23:53 ` Tim X 2006-12-29 1:12 ` Leo [not found] ` <mailman.2475.1167354778.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2006-12-28 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu> writes: > Tim X wrote: >> You don't think your being a bit pedantic do you? After all, Linux is >> what GNU/Linux is commonly called. You also have lots of other >> references out there which don't include the "GNU" part, such as The >> Linux Journal, the Linux Gazette, Linux Weekly news, >> linuxquestions.org, linuxkernel.org, etc etc. > >> At least if your going to take the time to post a response, maybe add >> something for the OP in addition to correcting his colloquial use of >> Linux rather than the technically correct one. > > I don't think he's being pedantic, and the fact that the error is common > does not mean it's insignificant. It's not only technically correct, > it's ethically correct. > > As for the OP, I can't help since I've never used XEmacs. > Perhaps your right - I guess what got to me was the fact the respondent was able to take the time to correct a common error which nearly everyone is guilty of, but failed to actually address the OPs question in any way. I mean, is he going to correct every post that refers to just Linux rather than GNU/Linux? Although I understand why we should encourage people to not drop the GNU part, I suspect that basic human tendency to shorten descriptions will see Linux being used far more often than GNU/Linux. We have far greater ethical problems relating to how people use GNU software and misunderstanding regarding free software and open source than whether people use the "formal" title or not. IMO if we want users to adopt a specific terminology, we need to provide positive reinforcement to do so in addition to criticising them when they fail to. Actually assisting someone together with correcting their understandable error in terms would assist in this. Just criticism without any assistance is more likely to have the opposite affect. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-28 23:53 ` Tim X @ 2006-12-29 1:12 ` Leo 2006-12-29 12:46 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) B. Smith-Mannschott [not found] ` <mailman.2487.1167396377.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.2475.1167354778.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Leo @ 2006-12-29 1:12 UTC (permalink / raw) * Tim X. (2006-12-29 10:53 +1100) said: ^^^^^^ [...] > Perhaps your right - I guess what got to me was the fact the > respondent was able to take the time to correct a common error which > nearly everyone is guilty of, but failed to actually address the OPs > question in any way. I mean, is he going to correct every post that > refers to just Linux rather than GNU/Linux? In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and GNU/Linux is the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. Making effort to preserve this consistence should be appreciated. -- Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) 2006-12-29 1:12 ` Leo @ 2006-12-29 12:46 ` B. Smith-Mannschott 2006-12-29 13:59 ` Micha Feigin [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.2487.1167396377.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: B. Smith-Mannschott @ 2006-12-29 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On Dec 29, 2006, at 02:12, Leo wrote: > In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to > use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and GNU/Linux is > the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. So lemme see... (1) "Linux" is just kernel (2) GNU/Linux is the operating system formed by running the GNU tools on top of that kernel => Actually, we should use "MIT/GNU/Linux", at least when including X11 on top of GNU/Linux. I'm sure I wouldn't feel at all tempted to shorten a handy phrase like "MIT/GNU/Linux". It just rolls of the tongue. I'm inclined to agree with the point made by the pedants of "GNU/ Linux", but I do wonder: where does it end? *ducks* // ben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* RE: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) 2006-12-29 12:46 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) B. Smith-Mannschott @ 2006-12-29 13:59 ` Micha Feigin 2006-12-29 14:17 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2006-12-29 17:27 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Alexey Pustyntsev [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Micha Feigin @ 2006-12-29 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) > -----Original Message----- > From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org > [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org] > On Behalf Of B. Smith-Mannschott > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:46 PM > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) > > > On Dec 29, 2006, at 02:12, Leo wrote: > > In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to > > use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and > GNU/Linux is > > the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. > The operating system is the kernel. GNU is one of the more popular option (but not the only one) for the tools running over the operating system. I think GNU/Linux is just RMS being overly pushy and and egomaniac. > So lemme see... > (1) "Linux" is just kernel Linux is the operating system > (2) GNU/Linux is the operating system formed by running the > GNU tools on top of that kernel > > => > > Actually, we should use "MIT/GNU/Linux", at least when What about qt etc ? > including X11 on top of GNU/Linux. I'm sure I wouldn't feel What if you replace GNU tools? (there are alternative options to most if not all) > at all tempted to shorten a handy phrase like > "MIT/GNU/Linux". It just rolls of the tongue. > > I'm inclined to agree with the point made by the pedants of > "GNU/ Linux", but I do wonder: where does it end? > > *ducks* > > > // ben > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > help-gnu-emacs mailing list > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv > University CC. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* RE: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) 2006-12-29 13:59 ` Micha Feigin @ 2006-12-29 14:17 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2006-12-29 17:27 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Alexey Pustyntsev 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2006-12-29 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs >>>>> "Micha" == Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: >> So lemme see... (1) "Linux" is just kernel Micha> Linux is the operating system Nope, it's just the kernel, and take away the GNU software you are left with just the kernel source. Micha> What if you replace GNU tools? (there are alternative options Micha> to most if not all) With what ? -- /\ ___ /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____ //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamico \/ e coltivatore diretto di Software ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-29 13:59 ` Micha Feigin 2006-12-29 14:17 ` Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2006-12-29 17:27 ` Alexey Pustyntsev 2006-12-29 18:35 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Kim F. Storm 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Alexey Pustyntsev @ 2006-12-29 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw) "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: > The operating system is the kernel. GNU is one of the more popular option (but > not the only one) for the tools running over the operating system. I think > GNU/Linux is just RMS being overly pushy and and egomaniac. > RMS is neither pushy nor egomaniac. 'GNU/Linux' is absolutely correct and fair term as the GNU tools and the kernel are practically indispensable to get the OS running. -- Rgds Alexey ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-29 17:27 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Alexey Pustyntsev @ 2006-12-29 18:35 ` Kim F. Storm 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-12-29 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw) nospam@dev.null (Alexey Pustyntsev) writes: > "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: > >> The operating system is the kernel. GNU is one of the more popular option (but >> not the only one) for the tools running over the operating system. I think >> GNU/Linux is just RMS being overly pushy and and egomaniac. >> > > RMS is neither pushy nor egomaniac. 'GNU/Linux' is absolutely correct > and fair term as the GNU tools and the kernel are practically > indispensable to get the OS running. And in particular the GNU C compiler and libraries! -- Kim F. Storm http://www.cua.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-29 15:29 ` Giorgos Keramidas 2006-12-30 0:28 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-29 23:12 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Jay Belanger 2006-12-30 17:49 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) Robert Thorpe 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-12-29 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:59:39 +0200, "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote: >B. Smith-Mannschott wrote: >>On Dec 29, 2006, at 02:12, Leo wrote: >>> In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to >>> use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and GNU/Linux >>> is the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. > > The operating system is the kernel. I have to respectfully disagree. A kernel without the userland tools to make good use of it is pretty much useless. > GNU is one of the more popular option (but not the only one) for the > tools running over the operating system. I think GNU/Linux is just RMS > being overly pushy and and egomaniac. No, RMS is right. First of all, there are other examples where "parts" have a different name from the "whole". Consider for example the fine difference between "SunOS" and "The Solaris Operating Environment" :) Secondly, it may be cool to say that "Linux is only the kernel", but this is a relatively strange way of looking at things. You can't really "boot" a standalong Linux kernel without the support of the myriad of tools people have grafted on top of it. A functional, and *complete* operating environment -- at least from the perspective of the end user -- includes both the Linux kernel *and* the surrounding tools. Giorgos ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-29 15:29 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-12-30 0:28 ` Tim X 2006-12-30 6:05 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2006-12-30 0:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes: > > First of all, there are other examples where "parts" have a different > name from the "whole". Consider for example the fine difference between > "SunOS" and "The Solaris Operating Environment" :) > Can you expand on this point? I'm asking as this seems to contradict what I was told by Sun and other sys admins and recall reading some years ago. My understanding is that sunOS was what Sun called the operating system they had prior to Solaris. When they brought out Solaris, they faced a bit of industry resistance and released SunOS (I can't remember, but think it might have been v4.5 or v5.4 or something like that), which was essentially the same as solaris (v2.3?). If there is a more precise difference, I'd be intrested in knowing it and/or being corrected. With respect to comments re kernel == OS, I don't agree. The kernel and the operating system are two different things, but somewhat dependent on each other. For example, you could run hurd instead of the Linux kernel. Now for some final clarification - at what point does GNU/Linux become something other than GNU/Linux? For example, I would expect a distribution like Debian is certainly of the GNU/Linux variety. However, what about Red Hat and SuSe? Possibly even more unclear, what about the distribution Oracle is planning to release as the supported platform for their Oracle databases, can you also call this GNU/Linux? If there are some distributions which are GNU/Linux and some which are not, what is the generic name used to refer to all of them collectively (i.e. in the sense of Unix or *nix)? In the old DOS days, you referred to DOS when talking about the generic OS, and DR DOS, MS DOS, PC MOS etc when referring to specific flavors. If we want to say that something runs on all "Linux" based systems, what is the correct terminology? I also gather from listening to RMS and from some reading that we should also avoid referring to GNU software as open source, but instead as "Free Software". Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-30 0:28 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X @ 2006-12-30 6:05 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2537.1167458715.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-31 15:34 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2006-12-30 6:05 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1249 bytes --] Tim X wrote: > > Now for some final clarification - at what point does GNU/Linux become > something other than GNU/Linux? For example, I would expect a > distribution like Debian is certainly of the GNU/Linux variety. > However, what about Red Hat and SuSe? Of course. They are using the same basic tools and software as Debian. Possibly even more unclear, what > about the distribution Oracle is planning to release as the supported > platform for their Oracle databases, can you also call this GNU/Linux? Even more obvious. Oracle's product is nothing but Red Hat Enterprise Linux repackaged. > If there are some distributions which are GNU/Linux and some which are > not, what is the generic name used to refer to all of them > collectively (i.e. in the sense of Unix or *nix)? Linux distributions, but you will not find a major distribution that doesn't rely on GNU. Only a few embedded systems use the kernel alone. > I also gather from listening to RMS and from some reading that we > should also avoid referring to GNU software as open source, but > instead as "Free Software". RMS started the movement and the GNU Project and that is the term he chose to associate with both. Matthew Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2537.1167458715.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-30 12:09 ` Tim X 2006-12-30 17:13 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2550.1167498938.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2006-12-30 12:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu> writes: > Tim X wrote: >> >> Now for some final clarification - at what point does GNU/Linux become >> something other than GNU/Linux? For example, I would expect a >> distribution like Debian is certainly of the GNU/Linux variety. >> However, what about Red Hat and SuSe? > > Of course. They are using the same basic tools and software as Debian. > > Possibly even more unclear, what >> about the distribution Oracle is planning to release as the supported >> platform for their Oracle databases, can you also call this GNU/Linux? > > Even more obvious. Oracle's product is nothing but Red Hat Enterprise > Linux repackaged. > So then, should that be Red Hat Enterprise GNU Linux? Also, when Larry initially announced that Oracle would do their own distribution, while he indicated it would likely be based on RH Enterprise, he was not prepared to commit to that. I was not aware he (or Oracle) had yet made such a commitment. Obviously, I wasn't clear enough. The point I wanted clarification on is whether GNU Linux refers to Linux distributions which comprise of only free software or whether it refers to all distributions which use both the Linux kernel and GNU utilities and other free software regardless of what other non-free software the distribution contains. >> If there are some distributions which are GNU/Linux and some which are >> not, what is the generic name used to refer to all of them >> collectively (i.e. in the sense of Unix or *nix)? > > Linux distributions, but you will not find a major distribution that > doesn't rely on GNU. Only a few embedded systems use the kernel alone. > >> I also gather from listening to RMS and from some reading that we >> should also avoid referring to GNU software as open source, but >> instead as "Free Software". > > RMS started the movement and the GNU Project and that is the term he > chose to associate with both. > I think you missed the point. RMS does not like the use of the term open source, but prefers free software. The problem is that open source does not necessarily mean free (as in liberty) as you can have software in which the sources are open, but the licensing is restrictive and non-free. I personally agree with this distinction unless I have misunderstood his arguement (which is possible and why I mentioned it.). You might believe that this is all self evident, but I have been using systems based on the Linux kernel since the first release of Slackware and the terminology and how it is applied has not been a static thing. The move away from the general term "Linux" to GNU Linux, while positive in reducing confusion between the OS and kernel references, was not emphasised initially as much as it seems to be now. Open source was considered as synonymous with "free software" until Eric Raymond and the OSI blurred things and an incresing number of companies attempted to jump on the band wagon by releasing their sources, but maintaining restrictive licenses etc. IIRC, even the Linux kernel was not initially released under the GPL. Combine this with the fact few of the major distributions use the term GNU Linux, preferring instead to either avoid explicit references to Linux in the branding or more often, emphasising their company name, the confusion in the press, deliberate FUD from SCO and MS etc, it should not be any surprise that some find it unclear exactly when GNU Linux is appropriate. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-30 12:09 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X @ 2006-12-30 17:13 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2550.1167498938.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2006-12-30 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3818 bytes --] Tim X wrote: > So then, should that be Red Hat Enterprise GNU Linux? Yes, that would be more accurate (and fair). > Also, when Larry initially announced that Oracle would do their own > distribution, while he indicated it would likely be based on RH > Enterprise, he was not prepared to commit to that. I was not aware he > (or Oracle) had yet made such a commitment. It is my understanding from reviews (like http://ultramookie.com/wayback/2006/10/26/uncompatible-linux/) that it is based on CentOS, which is in turn recompiled RHEL. > > Obviously, I wasn't clear enough. The point I wanted clarification on > is whether GNU Linux refers to Linux distributions which comprise of > only free software or whether it refers to all distributions which use > both the Linux kernel and GNU utilities and other free software > regardless of what other non-free software the distribution contains. Correct, any distribution that is based on both GNU and the Linux kernel should be called GNU/Linux. RMS would prefer GNU/Linux distributions were completely free, but that is separate from the question of naming. > I think you missed the point. RMS does not like the use of the term > open source, but prefers free software. I'm well aware of that. The problem is that open source does not necessarily mean free (as in liberty) as you can have > software in which the sources are open, but the licensing is > restrictive and non-free. I personally agree with this distinction > unless I have misunderstood his arguement (which is possible and why I > mentioned it.). This is mostly a misconception. The reason that Stallman doesn't like the open source movement is that it is based solely on practical expediency, while free software is about morality. I agree with him here, and prefer "free software". However, in practice, almost all open source (as defined by the Open Source Initiative) licenses are also free. The Open Source Definition (http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php) has detailed requirements, including free redistribution (modified or unmodified) for free or for a fee, and access to source. > You might believe that this is all self evident, but I have been using > systems based on the Linux kernel since the first release of Slackware > and the terminology and how it is applied has not been a static thing. > The move away from the general term "Linux" to GNU Linux, while > positive in reducing confusion between the OS and kernel references, > was not emphasised initially as much as it seems to be now. Yes, the FSF says (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#always) "It took a few years for us to realize what a problem this was and ask people to correct the practice. By that time, the confusion had a big head start." > Open source was considered as synonymous with "free software" until Eric > Raymond and the OSI blurred things If I understand right, "open source" was not much used at all until the OSI (and their founders) popularized it. and an incresing number of > companies attempted to jump on the band wagon by releasing their > sources, but maintaining restrictive licenses etc. Again, almost every OSI-approved license is also free (as defined by the FSF). These restrictive licenses (e.g Microsoft Shared Source) aren't OSI-approved open source either. IIRC, even the > Linux kernel was not initially released under the GPL. No, it was originally under a non-commercial only license, which wouldn't be OSI-approved open source OR Free. > it should not be any surprise that some find it unclear exactly when GNU > Linux is appropriate. Again, all popular "Linux distributions" are actually GNU/Linux. You may want to reply off-list. Matthew Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2550.1167498938.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-31 2:36 ` Tim X 2006-12-31 15:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2006-12-31 2:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu> writes: > >> I think you missed the point. RMS does not like the use of the term >> open source, but prefers free software. > > I'm well aware of that. > > The problem is that open source does not necessarily mean free (as in > liberty) as you can have >> software in which the sources are open, but the licensing is >> restrictive and non-free. I personally agree with this distinction >> unless I have misunderstood his arguement (which is possible and why I >> mentioned it.). > > This is mostly a misconception. The reason that Stallman doesn't like > the open source movement is that it is based solely on practical > expediency, while free software is about morality. I agree with him > here, and prefer "free software". However, in practice, almost all open > source (as defined by the Open Source Initiative) licenses are also > free. The Open Source Definition > (http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php) has detailed requirements, > including free redistribution (modified or unmodified) for free or for a > fee, and access to source. > Maybe we are getting down to "hair splitting" a little too much. However, in an interview I heard with RMS on a podcast, he was very critical of OSI and the problem with the use of the term open source. Your quite correct regarding is arguments concerning expediency and the danger this can represent for general freedom, especially in the long term. However, he was very very clear about not using the term open source and I have had e-mails from him correcting me for referring to GPL's software as open source (this was software released under the GPL, but not GNU software). AFter a few exchanges and after listening to that interview, I think I understand exactly what his concerns are and I have to say I agree. In the interview, the arguement centred around provision of MS media codecs - one side argued that it should be easier for people to obtain and install these codecs as this would increase the number of people switching to GNU Linux. On the other side, RMS argued that the cost to freedom this would result in was too high and he would rather see a truely free system used by less people than pseudo free OS used by a lot. Being a bit of an old idealist and readily admitting to finding Marxist theory, while flawed, better than any other, I could appreciate this point. >> You might believe that this is all self evident, but I have been using >> systems based on the Linux kernel since the first release of Slackware >> and the terminology and how it is applied has not been a static thing. >> The move away from the general term "Linux" to GNU Linux, while >> positive in reducing confusion between the OS and kernel references, >> was not emphasised initially as much as it seems to be now. > > Yes, the FSF says (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#always) "It > took a few years for us to realize what a problem this was and ask > people to correct the practice. By that time, the confusion had a big > head start." > >> Open source was considered as synonymous with "free software" until Eric >> Raymond and the OSI blurred things > > If I understand right, "open source" was not much used at all until the > OSI (and their founders) popularized it. Hmm, not sure. The OSI wold seem a bit of a late arrival in my chronology. The CS department at the University I worked at in '94 was already starting to make a bit of a 'big deal' about the fact they were moving to open source then and even started using the term in their publicity in '94/95. All PCs in the CS labs were running slackware at that time (but to be honest, a fair part of this was because MS Win 31 and DOS were just crippled pretend OSs at that time and even early, limited and buggy GNU Linux was better). Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-31 2:36 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X @ 2006-12-31 15:42 ` Giorgos Keramidas 2007-01-01 2:45 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-12-31 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:36:52 +1100, Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote: > The CS department at the University I worked at in '94 was already > starting to make a bit of a 'big deal' about the fact they were moving > to open source then and even started using the term in their publicity > in '94/95. All PCs in the CS labs were running slackware at that time > (but to be honest, a fair part of this was because MS Win 31 and DOS > were just crippled pretend OSs at that time and even early, limited > and buggy GNU Linux was better). Heheheh! I know the feeling :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-31 15:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas @ 2007-01-01 2:45 ` Tim X 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2007-01-01 2:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes: > On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:36:52 +1100, Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote: >> The CS department at the University I worked at in '94 was already >> starting to make a bit of a 'big deal' about the fact they were moving >> to open source then and even started using the term in their publicity >> in '94/95. All PCs in the CS labs were running slackware at that time >> (but to be honest, a fair part of this was because MS Win 31 and DOS >> were just crippled pretend OSs at that time and even early, limited >> and buggy GNU Linux was better). > > Heheheh! I know the feeling :) > The really sad thing is that the department, due to mainly economic pressure, has moved from core comp. sci. courses to more of what I would call IT courses. All the academics are now windows users and from talking with the sys admin who is still there, instead of getting really interesting questions or projects, such as setting up a beowulf cluster or helping to improve new signal processing algorithms or hardware designs etc, the questions/problems are now basic end-user support problems, like how do I configure outlook or why won't my anti-virus software run etc. Where once upon a time there was a number of what would be called emacs "power users" who would often be swapping bits of elisp and writing custom elisp packages to use in the department, its now just office documents, abstract misguided ramblings about DRM, ebusiness and enterprise management! Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-30 0:28 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-30 6:05 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2537.1167458715.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-31 15:34 ` Giorgos Keramidas 2007-01-01 2:21 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-12-31 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:28:50 +1100, Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote: >Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes: >> First of all, there are other examples where "parts" have a different >> name from the "whole". Consider for example the fine difference >> between "SunOS" and "The Solaris Operating Environment" :) > > Can you expand on this point? "Solaris" is considered to be the "SunOS" operating system, plus a graphical user environment, and a few other components. > I'm asking as this seems to contradict what I was told by Sun and > other sys admins and recall reading some years ago. My understanding > is that sunOS was what Sun called the operating system they had prior > to Solaris. "SunOS" 4.X was BSD-based. Sun replaced the BSD-based core of the system with a System V derivative, creating SunOS release 5.0. At the same time, a new marketing name was introduced for SunOS 5.0 and it accompanying set of components. This name was "Solaris 2". > When they brought out Solaris, they faced a bit of industry resistance > and released SunOS (I can't remember, but think it might have been > v4.5 or v5.4 or something like that), which was essentially the same > as solaris (v2.3?). There is a nice table of Solaris vs. SunOS versions here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_Operating_System I can't verify the correctness of *all* these release versions, but it may help a bit. The *real* point, however, is that there is ample precedent for calling parts of a system with a codename that is different from the whole. > With respect to comments re kernel == OS, I don't agree. The kernel > and the operating system are two different things, but somewhat > dependent on each other. For example, you could run hurd instead of > the Linux kernel. Exactly :) > I also gather from listening to RMS and from some reading that we > should also avoid referring to GNU software as open source, but > instead as "Free Software". Also true. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-31 15:34 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas @ 2007-01-01 2:21 ` Tim X 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tim X @ 2007-01-01 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:28:50 +1100, Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote: >>Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes: >>> First of all, there are other examples where "parts" have a different >>> name from the "whole". Consider for example the fine difference >>> between "SunOS" and "The Solaris Operating Environment" :) >> >> Can you expand on this point? > > "Solaris" is considered to be the "SunOS" operating system, plus a > graphical user environment, and a few other components. > >> I'm asking as this seems to contradict what I was told by Sun and >> other sys admins and recall reading some years ago. My understanding >> is that sunOS was what Sun called the operating system they had prior >> to Solaris. > > "SunOS" 4.X was BSD-based. Sun replaced the BSD-based core of the > system with a System V derivative, creating SunOS release 5.0. At the > same time, a new marketing name was introduced for SunOS 5.0 and it > accompanying set of components. This name was "Solaris 2". > >> When they brought out Solaris, they faced a bit of industry resistance >> and released SunOS (I can't remember, but think it might have been >> v4.5 or v5.4 or something like that), which was essentially the same >> as solaris (v2.3?). > > There is a nice table of Solaris vs. SunOS versions here: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_Operating_System > > I can't verify the correctness of *all* these release versions, but it > may help a bit. > Thanks. Its always worth getting clarification on this sort of stuff. I didn't have to administer a solaris system for very long and I didn't like it very much at the time (I was more experienced with OSF/Digital Unix). This was solaris 2.4 I think and it had a few issues - the sendmail bundled with it was buggy, there were problems with defunct processes hanging around forever and a few other irritating but not critical problems. What was really interesting was I replaced solaris with one of the early Linux sparc ports and was very amazed at the performance/speed improvement we got. I had thought the sparc hardware was over priced and slow, but once we had GNU linux on it, it was merely over priced. It actually gave us a really solid and reliable server for quite some time. The people I was working for were really amazed at the uptime we got and the performance. I was happy because I was able to install emacs on it (I had problems getting emacs installed under solaris, I can't remember what the exact problem was, but I had to tweak the build to get it to compile and then it segfaulted quite often). I think it did have xemacs installed, but one of the key elisp packages I needed wouldn't run under xemacs, so it was no good to me. This is why Ive stuck with GNU Emacs rather than Xemacs - some of the packages I use the most just won't run under Xemacs because of font lock differences. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-29 15:29 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-12-29 23:12 ` Jay Belanger 2006-12-30 15:13 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Micha Feigin [not found] ` <mailman.2547.1167491771.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-30 17:49 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) Robert Thorpe 2 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Jay Belanger @ 2006-12-29 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: belanger "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: ... > What if you replace GNU tools? (there are alternative options to most if not > all) Then it wouldn't be GNU/Linux anymore, would it? As far as this thread goes, I'm not sure I see the point of this question. Replacing the GNU toolchain has been suggested before, but as far as I know never done. I suspect this would be difficult. Jay ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* RE: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2006-12-29 23:12 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Jay Belanger @ 2006-12-30 15:13 ` Micha Feigin [not found] ` <mailman.2547.1167491771.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Micha Feigin @ 2006-12-30 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw) > -----Original Message----- > From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org > [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org] > On Behalf Of Jay Belanger > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:13 AM > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Cc: belanger@truman.edu > Subject: Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" > > > "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: > ... > > What if you replace GNU tools? (there are alternative > options to most > > if not > > all) > > Then it wouldn't be GNU/Linux anymore, would it? As far as > this thread goes, I'm not sure I see the point of this > question. Replacing the GNU toolchain has been suggested > before, but as far as I know never done. I suspect this > would be difficult. > Most if not all embeded systems do this ... > Jay > _______________________________________________ > help-gnu-emacs mailing list > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv > University CC. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2547.1167491771.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-30 17:19 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2006-12-30 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Micha Feigin wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org > > [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org] > > On Behalf Of Jay Belanger > > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:13 AM > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Cc: belanger@truman.edu > > Subject: Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" > > > > > > "Micha Feigin" <michf@post.tau.ac.il> writes: > > ... > > > What if you replace GNU tools? (there are alternative > > options to most > > > if not > > > all) > > > > Then it wouldn't be GNU/Linux anymore, would it? As far as > > this thread goes, I'm not sure I see the point of this > > question. Replacing the GNU toolchain has been suggested > > before, but as far as I know never done. I suspect this > > would be difficult. > > > > Most if not all embeded systems do this ... Normally they don't replace it, they just do without most of it, resulting in a system very unlike a *nix, but one that certainly qualifies as "linux". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-29 15:29 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 2006-12-29 23:12 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Jay Belanger @ 2006-12-30 17:49 ` Robert Thorpe 2006-12-30 19:20 ` Matthew Flaschen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2006-12-30 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Micha Feigin wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org > > [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+michf=post.tau.ac.il@gnu.org] > > On Behalf Of B. Smith-Mannschott > > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:46 PM > > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Subject: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) > > > > > > On Dec 29, 2006, at 02:12, Leo wrote: > > > In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to > > > use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and > > GNU/Linux is > > > the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. > > > > The operating system is the kernel. No it's not. This is an insidious idea started by Microsoft in the 80s who wanted to ship DOS with virtually no utilities. They tried to call it an OS even though it was only a part of one. Historically an OS has meant "the stuff that is needed to make a computer usable", not just the kernel. Even they have moved away from doing this, far away. > > Actually, we should use "MIT/GNU/Linux", at least when > > What about qt etc ? ... > > at all tempted to shorten a handy phrase like > > "MIT/GNU/Linux". It just rolls of the tongue. > > > > I'm inclined to agree with the point made by the pedants of > > "GNU/ Linux", but I do wonder: where does it end? This is a problem. The systems that are used today have been built from software from many sources, large voluntary projects, private individual hobbiests, and corporations. The largest things in a distro used to be, in terms of lines of code, Linux, GCC, X, Glibc and Emacs. Now there are things like OO.org and Mozilla. There is no really good name anymore. Perhaps these systems should be described as "Free/Open software operating systems". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) 2006-12-30 17:49 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) Robert Thorpe @ 2006-12-30 19:20 ` Matthew Flaschen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2006-12-30 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 891 bytes --] Robert Thorpe wrote: > Micha Feigin wrote: > This is a problem. The systems that are used today have been built > from software from many sources, large voluntary projects, private > individual hobbiests, and corporations. The largest things in a distro > used to be, in terms of lines of code, Linux, GCC, X, Glibc and Emacs. > Now there are things like OO.org and Mozilla. There is no really good > name anymore. Yes, but the center of the system is still GNU and Linux. Moreover, the GNU Project is the impetus beyond the system's existence. > Perhaps these systems should be described as "Free/Open software > operating systems". That description is weak, to say the least. Half a dozen different operating systems (GNU/Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, OpenSolaris, Darwin, etc.) could be described like that. GNU/Linux is much more descriptive. Matthew Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2487.1167396377.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2007-01-03 6:42 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-01-03 8:17 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Drew Adams ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-01-03 6:42 UTC (permalink / raw) > So lemme see... > (1) "Linux" is just kernel > (2) GNU/Linux is the operating system formed by running the GNU tools on > top of that kernel I believe RMS's use of "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" does not really refer to the so-called GNU tools, but the GNU project which endeavored, long before it seemed even remotely possible, to build a 100% Free Software operating system. To this end, it built tools like gcc, it designed licenses such as the GPL, it encouraged other people to release their code under a Free license, and it kind of brought some sense and long term vision to all the "free hacking" that was going on piecemeal around the world. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* RE: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2007-01-03 6:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Stefan Monnier @ 2007-01-03 8:17 ` Drew Adams 2007-01-03 10:03 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2685.1167818637.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2007-01-03 8:17 UTC (permalink / raw) > I believe RMS's use of "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" does not really refer to the > so-called GNU tools, but the GNU project which endeavored, long before it > seemed even remotely possible, to build a 100% Free Software operating > system. To this end, it built tools like gcc, it designed > licenses such as > the GPL, it encouraged other people to release their code under a Free > license, and it kind of brought some sense and long term vision to all the > "free hacking" that was going on piecemeal around the world. Well put. The "GNU = surrounding tools or environment" characterization is too often too prevalent in these discussions. You put it right, IMO. That said, getting people to refer to the OS as "GNU/Linux" might be a losing, though worthwhile, battle, if only because people do take shortcuts in speech. If the OS name were only one or two syllables, the battle would be easier. If "GNU" didn't mean more than just an OS, one might try to push to use just "GNU" instead of "GNU/Linux" - easier to say. If it were used alone as the name for the OS, however, "GNU" would be more general than "GNU/Linux", since, as someone pointed out, a different GNU kernel (e.g. HURD) could be used. GNU/Linux is no doubt the right term for a GNU OS with a Linux kernel, but it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. (I really wanted just to say "attaboy" for what you wrote.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2007-01-03 6:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Stefan Monnier 2007-01-03 8:17 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Drew Adams @ 2007-01-03 10:03 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2685.1167818637.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2007-01-03 10:03 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 429 bytes --] Stefan Monnier wrote: > I believe RMS's use of "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" does not really refer to the > so-called GNU tools, but the GNU project which endeavored, long before it > seemed even remotely possible, to build a 100% Free Software operating > system. That's true. However, you should also consider the vastness of how much code the GNU Project has produced. Everything from chown to GNOME. Matthew Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" [not found] ` <mailman.2685.1167818637.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2007-01-03 20:33 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-01-04 9:14 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-01-03 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) >> I believe RMS's use of "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" does not really refer to the >> so-called GNU tools, but the GNU project which endeavored, long before it >> seemed even remotely possible, to build a 100% Free Software operating >> system. > That's true. However, you should also consider the vastness of how much > code the GNU Project has produced. Everything from chown to GNOME. What I meant above is that a vast amount of non-GNU code is Free Software thanks to the GNU project, so even if "the GNU project"[1] did not contribute any code to it, its existence as a Free Software is partly due to the GNU project. In any case, to a large extent, the only difference between "GNU programs" and "non-GNU programs" is the extent to which the maintainers agreed to associate their project's name with the GNU moniker, which is mostly a political decision. Stefan [1] "The GNU project" is much more a concept than a bunch of people. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" 2007-01-03 20:33 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Stefan Monnier @ 2007-01-04 9:14 ` Matthew Flaschen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Matthew Flaschen @ 2007-01-04 9:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 681 bytes --] Stefan Monnier wrote: > What I meant above is that a vast amount of non-GNU code is Free Software > thanks to the GNU project, so even if "the GNU project"[1] did not > contribute any code to it, its existence as a Free Software is partly due to > the GNU project. Also true. If nothing else, they created the licenses that is used most commonly for both GNU/Linux and for free software generally. > [1] "The GNU project" is much more a concept than a bunch of people. That's true. However, it's that concept (and those who implemented it, however connected) that created the largest part of the OS. I think we essentially agree here. :) Matthew Flaschen [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] _______________________________________________ help-gnu-emacs mailing list help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: gnu vs. xemacs [not found] ` <mailman.2475.1167354778.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2006-12-29 18:23 ` Hadron Quark 2006-12-29 18:32 ` Ralf Angeli 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Hadron Quark @ 2006-12-29 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes: > * Tim X. (2006-12-29 10:53 +1100) said: > ^^^^^^ > [...] > >> Perhaps your right - I guess what got to me was the fact the >> respondent was able to take the time to correct a common error which >> nearly everyone is guilty of, but failed to actually address the OPs >> question in any way. I mean, is he going to correct every post that >> refers to just Linux rather than GNU/Linux? > > In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to > use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and GNU/Linux is > the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. > > Making effort to preserve this consistence should be appreciated. This is simply not true. In nearly all but the kernel groups, "Linux" is known or accepted as Gnu/Linux. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-29 18:23 ` gnu vs. xemacs Hadron Quark @ 2006-12-29 18:32 ` Ralf Angeli 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Ralf Angeli @ 2006-12-29 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) * Hadron Quark (2006-12-29) writes: > Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes: > >> In every emacs-* mailing lists, it has been extremely consistent to >> use Linux and GNU/Linux i.e. Linux means the kernel and GNU/Linux is >> the operating system that contains a Linux kernel. >> >> Making effort to preserve this consistence should be appreciated. > > This is simply not true. > > In nearly all but the kernel groups, "Linux" is known or accepted as Gnu/Linux. Leo talked specifically about "emacs-* mailing lists" and those are typically GNU lists. And on such lists "Linux" is often _not_ accepted as "GNU/Linux". -- Ralf ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2006-12-27 13:59 ` Sven Bretfeld @ 2006-12-27 19:52 ` David Kastrup 2006-12-28 14:36 ` insert name 4 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2006-12-27 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) "H." <hbe123@gmail.com> writes: > I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over > xemacs, or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, > why you feel that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a > beginner. All opinions welcome. For instance, perhaps these > difference forks are good for different things...? Except for some features of its own, development of XEmacs trails that of Emacs for about 5 years. For those features where XEmacs is leading, the documentation is still trailing for about 5 years, so one can't actually make educated use of them. Development for XEmacs is not user-driven: problem reports and feature and documentation requests from non-core programmers tend to fall by the wayside or get argued away. It is my impression that GNU Emacs has a much higher standard of documentation and coherence in API design and user interface. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2006-12-27 19:52 ` David Kastrup @ 2006-12-28 14:36 ` insert name 2006-12-28 20:25 ` David Kastrup 4 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: insert name @ 2006-12-28 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw) H. wrote: > I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over xemacs, > or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, why you feel > that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a beginner. All opinions > welcome. For instance, perhaps these difference forks are good for > different things...? > Emacs has much more documentation both on the web and in hard copy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: gnu vs. xemacs 2006-12-28 14:36 ` insert name @ 2006-12-28 20:25 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2006-12-28 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) insert name <nospam@nospam.org> writes: > H. wrote: >> I was just curious why people in this community prefer gnu over >> xemacs, or if that is the case, and, whatever your preference is, >> why you feel that way. I'm neutral myself, being just a >> beginner. All opinions welcome. For instance, perhaps these >> difference forks are good for different things...? > > Emacs has much more documentation both on the web and in hard copy. Actually, given the amount of partly outdated, partly wrong junk you can find for anything on the web and in hard copy, this is not particularly persuasive. However, Emacs comes with _integrated_ documentation (which you can also print out if necessary) that is, in my opinion, more comprehensible, complete and up to date than the respective integrated documentation of XEmacs. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-01-04 9:14 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 39+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-12-27 11:46 gnu vs. xemacs H. 2006-12-27 12:57 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) 2006-12-27 13:10 ` Peter Dyballa 2006-12-27 13:59 ` Sven Bretfeld 2006-12-28 10:27 ` Ramprasad [not found] ` <mailman.2429.1167301573.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-28 11:27 ` Tim X 2006-12-28 18:57 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2457.1167332268.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-28 23:53 ` Tim X 2006-12-29 1:12 ` Leo 2006-12-29 12:46 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) B. Smith-Mannschott 2006-12-29 13:59 ` Micha Feigin 2006-12-29 14:17 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2006-12-29 17:27 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Alexey Pustyntsev 2006-12-29 18:35 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Kim F. Storm [not found] ` <mailman.2488.1167400944.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-29 15:29 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 2006-12-30 0:28 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-30 6:05 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2537.1167458715.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-30 12:09 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-30 17:13 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2550.1167498938.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-31 2:36 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-31 15:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 2007-01-01 2:45 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-31 15:34 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Giorgos Keramidas 2007-01-01 2:21 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Tim X 2006-12-29 23:12 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Jay Belanger 2006-12-30 15:13 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Micha Feigin [not found] ` <mailman.2547.1167491771.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-30 17:19 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Robert Thorpe 2006-12-30 17:49 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" (was: gnu vs. xemacs) Robert Thorpe 2006-12-30 19:20 ` Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2487.1167396377.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2007-01-03 6:42 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Stefan Monnier 2007-01-03 8:17 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Drew Adams 2007-01-03 10:03 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2685.1167818637.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2007-01-03 20:33 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Stefan Monnier 2007-01-04 9:14 ` "MIT/GNU/Linux" Matthew Flaschen [not found] ` <mailman.2475.1167354778.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2006-12-29 18:23 ` gnu vs. xemacs Hadron Quark 2006-12-29 18:32 ` Ralf Angeli 2006-12-27 19:52 ` David Kastrup 2006-12-28 14:36 ` insert name 2006-12-28 20:25 ` David Kastrup
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