From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Is Elisp really that slow? 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Fri, 17 May 2019 15:02:52 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2sggeubg63-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 17 May 2019 15:02:52 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x4HF2jOo024036; Fri, 17 May 2019 15:02:45 GMT In-Reply-To: <20190517085526.GC9018@tuxteam.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4849.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9259 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=2 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=320 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905170092 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9259 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=2 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=347 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905170092 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.85 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120489 Archived-At: > I've been in this software business for 30+ years, and with the arrival > of "commodity computing", I've observed a strong anti-pattern: designs > tend to cater to the buyer and not to the user. >=20 > I'll explain: If you decide which product to "buy", you haven't the > time/resources to become proficient with that product: you decide on > first impressions. But once you use that product for years, you'll > "need" other features, which perhaps don't stick out at first sight. >=20 > There are two mechanisms pushing that anti-pattern forward: >=20 > 1. In bigger corporations those taking the decision which software > to "buy" (usually in the monetary sense) won't be those > paid (and thus more or less blackmailed) to use it. Management > goes "oh, shiny" and workers go "oh, no!". >=20 > 2. In general, when you personally "buy" a piece of software > (in the monetary, or in the general sense), you often have > no idea on what you need, so you go "oh shiny" again, and > sink considerable effort into fine-tuning your interface to > that software. Re-tuning is so expensive that you better not > think of it (as a long-time vi user, I mostly moved to Emacs > about ten years ago: it /was/ expensive. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > [1] "buy" in a very general sense: it might cost money or not, > but it'll cost learning, dedication and commitment. And in a later msg: > I'm convinced that conventional software has promoted patterns > which tend to keep users in dependency (much more so in the Web > "application" space[1], because there it's strategic for your > business), and that those patterns infiltrate our way of seeing > things -- therefore they end up in free software too, for no reason. +1000. Thank you for putting it so clearly. user !=3D chooser Of course users may first choose. But they also must then use. Design for choosers ("sales" in some sense) is not, in itself, design for users and use. OTOH, a bazaar does have this advantage over a cathedral: masses of user/developers attracted (in whatever way initially - click-bait/"oh-shiny" or not) do sometimes improve a thing that might have started out rudimentary or poorly designed. Do Photoshop developers spend a huge amount of their energy worrying about dumbing it down to commodity-sell it to every Joe & Jane? There may be some of that, but I doubt that it is a strong/main consideration for the product design, in particular for making the product as usable, useful, and powerful as possible.