w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[B. T. Raven]

I have the following in .emacs:

(setq w32-pass-lwindow-to-system nil
      w32-pass-rwindow-to-system nil
      w32-pass-apps-to-system    nil
      w32-lwindow-modifier       'super   ;; Left Windows
      w32-rwindow-modifier       'super   ;; Right Windows
      w32-apps-modifier          'hyper)  ;; App-Menu (key to right of
Right Windows)

This works fine in most cases but I recently wanted to add:

(global-set-key [(super s)] 'search-forward-regexp)
(global-set-key [(super r)] 'search-backward-regexp)

but the combo s-r pops up the msw Run program box. Curiously s-s correctly
produces RE search: prompt rather than the msw Settings: ???
s-f, s-e, s-d and probably others also effect a back door to msw.
Is there some way to make all msw key combos except Alt-<tab> completely
cold while in Emacs?

Thanks for any help,
Ed.

--

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:46:45 -0500
> 
> (global-set-key [(super s)] 'search-forward-regexp)
> (global-set-key [(super r)] 'search-backward-regexp)
> 
> but the combo s-r pops up the msw Run program box. Curiously s-s correctly
> produces RE search: prompt rather than the msw Settings: ???
> s-f, s-e, s-d and probably others also effect a back door to msw.
> Is there some way to make all msw key combos except Alt-<tab> completely
> cold while in Emacs?

Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this list
who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any version of
Windows?

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Mathias Dahl]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
> version of Windows?

I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).

I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.

/Mathias

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[B. T. Raven]

"Mathias Dahl" <brakjoller@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:upsdmikql.fsf@gmail.com...
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
> > working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
> > list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
> > version of Windows?
>
> I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
> i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
> Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
>
> I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
>
> /Mathias

I have w98 and w2000 but I have tried it  only on w98 (ver 21.3) so far.
In addition to win-e, win-f, win-d,and win-r, win-m is also a problem
(apparently it is a synonym for win-d, raise the desktop.) The other
unassigned s-<whatever> keychords produce a pleasant ding sound. I will
test it on w-2000 when I get a chance but there I have only version 22.0
installed.

Probably not relevant, but the following work alright:

(global-set-key [(super g)] 'goto-line)
(global-set-key [(super b)] 'bury-buffer)
(global-set-key [(super k)] (lambda () (interactive) (kill-line 0 )))

Ed

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Lennart Borgman]

Mathias Dahl wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>   
>> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
>> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
>> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
>> version of Windows?
>>     
>
> I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
> i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
> Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
>
> I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
>   

This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that 
windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r 
you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.

That is what I have done in the patched version of Emacs that you can 
download together with EmacsW32. I think we made a decision that this 
part of my patches should not go into Emacs 22. Actually my own opinion 
is however that it should.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[B. T. Raven]

"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote in message
news:mailman.7293.1159059034.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> Mathias Dahl wrote:
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> >
> >> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
> >> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
> >> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
> >> version of Windows?
> >>
> >
> > I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
> > i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
> > Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
> >
> > I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
> >
>
> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that
> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r
> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.
>
> That is what I have done in the patched version of Emacs that you can
> download together with EmacsW32. I think we made a decision that this
> part of my patches should not go into Emacs 22. Actually my own opinion
> is however that it should.
>
>
>

>From the EmacsW32 page:

"The design of Emacs makes it very hungry for keyboard keys. Normally on
MS Windows Emacs grabs the Alt key for its own use as the Meta key.
However the standard use of Alt in MS Windows is thereby impeded. If Emacs
grabs Alt you can not switch window with Alt-Tab and you can not reach the
menus with Alt. This is very annoying to many MS Windows users. "

But this does not describe Emacs behavior on my ver. 21.3 w32
installation. With w32-alt-is-meta set t, I can switch between msw
processes with Alt-<tab>. It would be less convenient for me to have all
msw Alt key combos disabled (including Alt-<tab>) but that would be
preferable to the way it works now. I can minimize of Emacs with C-z and
then navigate with Alt-<tab>.

I would prefer that w32 Emacs work as much as possible like the real one
in case, some day, I am able to escape from all those legacy apps.

Ed.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:34:09 -0500
> 
> >From the EmacsW32 page:
> 
> "The design of Emacs makes it very hungry for keyboard keys. Normally on
> MS Windows Emacs grabs the Alt key for its own use as the Meta key.
> However the standard use of Alt in MS Windows is thereby impeded. If Emacs
> grabs Alt you can not switch window with Alt-Tab and you can not reach the
> menus with Alt. This is very annoying to many MS Windows users. "
> 
> But this does not describe Emacs behavior on my ver. 21.3 w32
> installation. With w32-alt-is-meta set t, I can switch between msw
> processes with Alt-<tab>.

Emacs does NOT grab Alt when w32-alt-is-meta is set to t, at least not
in such a destructive way.  If the above text makes it sound like
Alt-TAB no longer works due to something Emacs does to Alt, then that
text should be rephrased.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 02:50:28 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
> CC:  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.5 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS 
> 	autolearn=no version=3.0.4
> 
> Mathias Dahl wrote:
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> >   
> >> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
> >> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
> >> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
> >> version of Windows?
> >>     
> >
> > I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
> > i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
> > Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
> >
> > I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
> >   
> 
> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that 
> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r 
> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.

Can you give a pointer to the Microsoft documentation which says that,
and/or documentation that explains how the LWIN-r combo works in terms
of Win32 API calls, and why it bypasses the normal keyboard reading
Emacs uses?

> That is what I have done in the patched version of Emacs that you can 
> download together with EmacsW32.

I'm well aware of your patched version.  The fact is, however, that we
do seem to have code in w32fns.c that tries to work around the Run
dialog being popped.  I asked my question (above) to try to understand
whether that code works at all, on any Windows system.  Presumably, it
worked for someone at some point in the past, or else it would not
have been added to Emacs.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Lennart Borgman]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 02:50:28 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
>> CC:  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>> X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.5 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS 
>> 	autolearn=no version=3.0.4
>>
>> Mathias Dahl wrote:
>>     
>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
>>>> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
>>>> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
>>>> version of Windows?
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
>>> i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
>>> Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
>>>
>>> I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
>>>   
>>>       
>> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that 
>> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r 
>> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.
>>     
>
> Can you give a pointer to the Microsoft documentation which says that,
> and/or documentation that explains how the LWIN-r combo works in terms
> of Win32 API calls, and why it bypasses the normal keyboard reading
> Emacs uses?
>   

See the thread where we discussed this:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2005-07/msg00448.html


>   
>> That is what I have done in the patched version of Emacs that you can 
>> download together with EmacsW32.
>>     
>
> I'm well aware of your patched version.  The fact is, however, that we
> do seem to have code in w32fns.c that tries to work around the Run
> dialog being popped.  I asked my question (above) to try to understand
> whether that code works at all, on any Windows system.  Presumably, it
> worked for someone at some point in the past, or else it would not
> have been added to Emacs.
>   

I think the documentation I pointed to in the beginning of the thread 
answers this questions too.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Lennart Borgman]

B. T. Raven wrote:
> "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote in message
> news:mailman.7293.1159059034.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
>   
>> Mathias Dahl wrote:
>>     
>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
>>>> working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
>>>> list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
>>>> version of Windows?
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
>>> i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
>>> Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
>>>
>>> I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
>>>
>>>       
>> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that
>> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r
>> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.
>>
>> That is what I have done in the patched version of Emacs that you can
>> download together with EmacsW32. I think we made a decision that this
>> part of my patches should not go into Emacs 22. Actually my own opinion
>> is however that it should.
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
> >From the EmacsW32 page:
>
> "The design of Emacs makes it very hungry for keyboard keys. Normally on
> MS Windows Emacs grabs the Alt key for its own use as the Meta key.
> However the standard use of Alt in MS Windows is thereby impeded. If Emacs
> grabs Alt you can not switch window with Alt-Tab and you can not reach the
> menus with Alt. This is very annoying to many MS Windows users. "
>
> But this does not describe Emacs behavior on my ver. 21.3 w32
> installation. With w32-alt-is-meta set t, I can switch between msw
> processes with Alt-<tab>. 
Thanks, you are right. I should change that part of the documentation 
now. As you can see from other parts of this thread this behaviour has 
changed in MS Windows with the emergence of Windows 2000 and Wiindows 
XP. The behaviour above for Alt-Tab was how this worked in previous MS 
Windows.

However this instead now mean that you can not use Alt-Tab in Emacs on 
MS Windows. (You can however with the patched version.)

> I would prefer that w32 Emacs work as much as possible like the real one
> in case, some day, I am able to escape from all those legacy apps.
>   
No problem. You can either use the unpatched version or the patched 
version without turning on the feature that you can use the windows keys 
as meta. Both will work as you want.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:59:17 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
> CC:  brakjoller@gmail.com,  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> >> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that 
> >> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r 
> >> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.
> >>     
> >
> > Can you give a pointer to the Microsoft documentation which says that,
> > and/or documentation that explains how the LWIN-r combo works in terms
> > of Win32 API calls, and why it bypasses the normal keyboard reading
> > Emacs uses?
> >   
> 
> See the thread where we discussed this:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2005-07/msg00448.html

I've re-read that discussion before asking the question.  The only
pointers I found there were to a CodeProject page, which just said
that keyboard hooks were necessary, but didn't explain the issue any
further.  What I'm looking for is a more in-depth documentation,
preferably official Microsoft one.

> > I'm well aware of your patched version.  The fact is, however, that we
> > do seem to have code in w32fns.c that tries to work around the Run
> > dialog being popped.  I asked my question (above) to try to understand
> > whether that code works at all, on any Windows system.  Presumably, it
> > worked for someone at some point in the past, or else it would not
> > have been added to Emacs.
> 
> I think the documentation I pointed to in the beginning of the thread 
> answers this questions too.

Please tell where, I must have missed that somehow.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:17:57 -0500
> 
> "Mathias Dahl" <brakjoller@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:upsdmikql.fsf@gmail.com...
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> > > Looks like the trick we play around line 3005 of w32fns.c isn't
> > > working.  What Windows version is that?  Is there someone on this
> > > list who can make LWIN-r combo work for them in Emacs, in any
> > > version of Windows?
> >
> > I just tested with emacs -q and it works as for the parent poster,
> > i.e. Win+s gives me `search-backward-regexp' but Win+r opens up the
> > Run dialog. The same applies for Win+e (open Explorer.exe).
> >
> > I use CVS Emacs from 2006-03-20 on Windows XP.
> >
> > /Mathias
> 
> I have w98 and w2000 but I have tried it  only on w98 (ver 21.3) so far.
> In addition to win-e, win-f, win-d,and win-r, win-m is also a problem
> (apparently it is a synonym for win-d, raise the desktop.) The other
> unassigned s-<whatever> keychords produce a pleasant ding sound. I will
> test it on w-2000 when I get a chance but there I have only version 22.0
> installed.
> 
> Probably not relevant, but the following work alright:
> 
> (global-set-key [(super g)] 'goto-line)
> (global-set-key [(super b)] 'bury-buffer)
> (global-set-key [(super k)] (lambda () (interactive) (kill-line 0 )))

Thanks to all who responded.

I now think that my original opinion about the code in w32fns.c no
working was in error.  That code _does_ work, and correctly prevents
Windows from popping up the Start menu when lwindow is pressed and
released without pressing any other key.  This is important when
w32-pass-lwindow-to-system is set to nil, but w32-lwindow-modifier is
left at its default nil value, which causes the lwindow key to appear
in Emacs as <lwindow>.

But the case of <lwindow>-r, when w32-lwindow-modifier is set to
`super', cannot be handled by that trick, because Windows seems to
catch the combo before Emacs gets the chance to process it.

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Lennart Borgman]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:59:17 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se>
>> CC:  brakjoller@gmail.com,  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>
>>     
>>>> This behaviour is consistent with MS documentation. To avoid that 
>>>> windows left and right keys open for example the run dialog with Win+r 
>>>> you have to implement a low level keyboard hook.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> Can you give a pointer to the Microsoft documentation which says that,
>>> and/or documentation that explains how the LWIN-r combo works in terms
>>> of Win32 API calls, and why it bypasses the normal keyboard reading
>>> Emacs uses?
>>>   
>>>       
>> See the thread where we discussed this:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2005-07/msg00448.html
>>     
>
> I've re-read that discussion before asking the question.  The only
> pointers I found there were to a CodeProject page, which just said
> that keyboard hooks were necessary, but didn't explain the issue any
> further.  What I'm looking for is a more in-depth documentation,
> preferably official Microsoft one.
>   
Unfortunately the documentation on LowLevelKeyboardProc or 
WH_KEYBOARD_LL does not give a big picture. That was why I gave the link 
above as a starting point.

    http://windowssdk.msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644985.aspx

I read a lot info about input processing on MS Windows, but 
unfortunately I did not save links to those while switching pc. Anyway, 
these links does not give the overall picture either but tells what to 
do I believe:

    
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/Disabling_Shortcut_Keys_in_Games.asp
    
http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/default.asp?url=/archive/en-us/directx9_c_Dec_2004/directx/gamesforwindows/disablingshortcutkeys.asp

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:17:57 -0500
> 
> Probably not relevant, but the following work alright:
> 
> (global-set-key [(super g)] 'goto-line)
> (global-set-key [(super b)] 'bury-buffer)
> (global-set-key [(super k)] (lambda () (interactive) (kill-line 0 )))

FWIW, another workaround is to use a modified key; e.g., the following
should work:

  (global-set-key [(super shift r)] 'goto-line)

alternatively, use the normal binding:

  (global-set-key [(super r)] 'goto-line)

but hold the Shift key while you press LWindow-r.  The Run dialog will
not pop up because of Shift being down, but Emacs will translate
LWindow-R to LWindow-r, and invoke your function.

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[B. T. Raven]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.7319.1159116339.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> > From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> > Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:17:57 -0500
> >
> > Probably not relevant, but the following work alright:
> >
> > (global-set-key [(super g)] 'goto-line)
> > (global-set-key [(super b)] 'bury-buffer)
> > (global-set-key [(super k)] (lambda () (interactive) (kill-line 0 )))
>
> FWIW, another workaround is to use a modified key; e.g., the following
> should work:
>
>   (global-set-key [(super shift r)] 'goto-line)
>
> alternatively, use the normal binding:
>
>   (global-set-key [(super r)] 'goto-line)
>
> but hold the Shift key while you press LWindow-r.  The Run dialog will
> not pop up because of Shift being down, but Emacs will translate
> LWindow-R to LWindow-r, and invoke your function.
>
>

Thanks, Eli. That's an acceptable work-around for now.
While we're on the topic, do you know if it would be possible to make all
modifier key combos sticky dynamically (like the escape key)? For example
if I pressed shift-super the scancodes produced by the keys' down status
would be held somehow so that they could modify a non-modifier key AFTER
they have been released. Then you could stack 6 or even 7 modifiers with a
single alphabetic key (actually any non-modifier key). Since the escape
key is too far away to be useful, that could function as an abort from
sticky key sequence, assuming that C-g wouldn't work in this context.
Probably also needs a one line buffer dedicated to the pending key-stack
since these aren't always in the minibuffer for some reason.
If anyone out there thinks this isn't too bizarre for words then ask me
about my (putative) RISK keyboard (split spacebar and a complete set of
alt, meta, control, shift, super, duper, and hyper for each pinkie and as
a bonus it allows chucking about 30 keys from the 105 key keyboard, more
if you don't need a numeric keypad. ;-)) Just a thought.

Ed

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:32:04 -0500
> 
> While we're on the topic, do you know if it would be possible to make all
> modifier key combos sticky dynamically (like the escape key)?

Isn't there a sticky keys option in the Control Panel somewhere?

Re: w32-pass-lwindow-to-system (& ...rwindow)

[B. T. Raven]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.7336.1159154474.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> > From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@alcisp.com>
> > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:32:04 -0500
> >
> > While we're on the topic, do you know if it would be possible to make
all
> > modifier key combos sticky dynamically (like the escape key)?
>
> Isn't there a sticky keys option in the Control Panel somewhere?

Yes. Thanks. I uninstalled the Accessibility component a long time ago and
had forgotten about it.