From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 20:49:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <444779489.8504194.1534538988289@mail.yahoo.com> References: <444779489.8504194.1534538988289.ref@mail.yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8504193_1480319290.1534538988288" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1534538921 3597 195.159.176.226 (17 Aug 2018 20:48:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 20:48:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 17 22:48:37 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fqlfg-0000oO-CZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 22:48:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36352 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fqlhm-0002qW-4F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:50:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fqlh3-0002gV-Tk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:50:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fqlgv-0005O8-AZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:49:59 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic312-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.203]:43398) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fqlgu-0005MP-Vy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:49:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1534538991; bh=sR3imxVsFs9GCwl7BqVb1PSzMgIArD4fuMjA2YH/neQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=L3pNibWyHQ/lIraza1T9clzKcU7YZLMdf3l+cD7U0S5p2YRKZEF0tjGBhGo717vNAJVxm1GCvzdl9elVBD9Z/lKYN1/kB7jxi2k3mFUHbAjB/6vSHpRd7uJswuW8T1D7JbwR7gYlXd48zJnrRTE5WaT/C7aIv0Bomgt3dXqp7bRrF38HHnuWTVHamsx8ZCq2o/7r1GgTudNxOyp1Tu7llsLfvtlswRg2Cqv7lm+IO48rbOLUw3ibTZac5rPN51oeKiEp4fXA+r2SbubNrllPbVk4YKuKL4UOIPn7F8qilHx8d1NSX2PtEKaQuhbieho2JDh4Flw6XLL6gqsM3r/8EA== X-YMail-OSG: 5DcRn5UVM1l9XTy_VepiMmnI0OxbeDD0kjZUi09tbsbaWFdpnKC2BEwTDVl858K q4wnP_ndZAjV0aKaHyE3Odr7D8IW6hPy_YAHA2Q5zt2mdo3Zz4NEqj_9leh8nCgJ0K0NuTyOAf6R rboBqLIyD9b8_8SfN2mTGS8Tnr.QBc3qChm35cUnKmcq7_ctstQX7rJCJzEZ7nEhAjRlK5r7Rnfa E08jZkfsMYshS097Zh1vaRpEY46e12ysnRL5G6lMFt93y8cehRLTDbJEnEJjxfV5zxLWnNDwDxrS ZkRby4FkZ1S5WQDMqo6Hs87x3n.CDUE7QoZF60d0GL_dpd4VlkCZXDR5HlvfPkl3tzEwx6oMMY.j ccWXCnHUXnwvQl8dayEVdJczTbY6I.tUgF5LB1X61dhuOGPNxQvfL4O2MAn_5JqKr2eqEqurxVHI rfPmkNaxrbrOoUm4GEzAtmcCfZ1XfSeJjuXOlqnJvAB1pV6LtQXfIuR6By_bota0n._MsKHGtJg8 Kx0u8DbqpaL5wmD2xSw4iIK2gHe79UQhDYmUfhM1W020hV_ytFxX6a12XMtWJY_qEAqiryne.beC E9b6s8HCuFQuhWYEZZcMQyGyeCjtSnRji_AvahcgStNOvFbfJ0vPUN6IZIq6P371PmVrHup78HfR mFjrin1uo3KWk5EyetbLsbFIWgZ9CqOI6C54hWJtKY91FpPMvGtUMp1PtQnL8VqFTVOrR32rNBbY t_Pz0WMOlHAI_Ry9Rr6PxukVxpqyTFfLoLJAfEEO6ZhMf0V178EoRcHyXaiE3boxjJ8EK0Pc.1GK 2FcyAGCg0gjWcyKhHroRZ2TX1184FUVlunUrrIVgvP Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Aug 2018 20:49:51 +0000 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12206 aolwebmail Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:61.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/61.0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 66.163.191.203 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:228648 Archived-At: ------=_Part_8504193_1480319290.1534538988288 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 05:15:49PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >It does, since Emacs 26.1.=C2=A0 See the emacs-modules feature. This is an incredibly good new. The documentation maybe does not follow the= common format, but it is perfectly fine for me. The sooner you include thi= s in the tutorial the projects/collaborators will use it. Because I was loo= king around and I couldn't find anything.=20 > >> - What's the actual status for the emacs-guile integration and why is it= abandoned since 2015? > >AFAIK, no one is actively working on Guile Emacs.=C2=A0 (And Guile itself >is developed much slower than Emacs is.) > Opposite to the previous one this is a terribly sad new. But at least the C= API could work for what I wanted.=20 > >We just got a JIT branch a few days ago, please take a look and help >work towards eventually landing it. > I will try it specially for benchmarking. I'm so tired of listening Vim use= rs talking about how fast it is. Hope this could help to reduce the gap. I would prefer that packages could compile to native code with gcc or so, (= not only because of the expected speedup, but also for debugging facilities= already available); maybe giving to the user the option to choose between = bytecode/JIT/gcc and they will give live to the most successful one, but I = understand that this requires a manpower unavailable now. > >I'm not sure I understand what you suggest in practical terms here. > I just suggest a cleanup/deletion/ deprecation advice in Elpa/Melpa. It is = not a programming suggestion, but almost a logistical one. Because for new = users it is confusing which package to install and the suggestions in the W= iki are usually the older options. So basically I have the feeling we have = a volume of packages unmaintainable for the number of active developers I s= ee. For example most of the documentation suggests to use smex while it is = abandoned and the "successor" is amx fully functional and maintained. New u= sers will install smex facing the already solved bugs. But also some new pa= ckages will use the old one for new purposes. Younger people need to know e= macs from scratch as they grow with other completely different tools.=20 > >Emacs is much more flexible, and different people have different >needs. > Yes, but someone who opens emacs for the first time will open it to edit te= xt and very probably to program, he should have color preferences and for s= ure he doesn't know how to add packages and the elpa repository (maybe don'= t even know about about something called elpa), so, the most basic customiz= ation options. If comes from vim/nano/gedit he will need some assistance th= at emacs can bring (not only the tutorial, but evile, bindkeys), but he don= 't know how get there. Maybe he prefers to use always the terminal version = instead of the graphical one, or he will read the manual and something keyb= inds doesn't work, and blame emacs when tmux was the guilty.=20 > >But that doesn't mean people cannot come up with such proposals. >Please do propose practical changes, and they will be reviewed. I really want to, sadly I am totally inexpert using elisp out of my persona= l configuration. I just started reading the elisp documentation like 2 mont= hs ago, and after this I will need to start with the coding styles and so o= n. So it will take a while before I could contribute in the adult league :(= . BTW: Whats the best documentation (from scratch) to learn elisp and the = emacs developement environment? Do you have anything like for example: "The= Linux Programming Interface" from "Michael Kerrisk" but for Emacs?=20 Very thanks for your previous reply. Ergus ------=_Part_8504193_1480319290.1534538988288 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Th= u, Aug 16, 2018 at 05:15:49PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
>It does, since Emacs 26.1.  See the emacs-= modules feature.

This is an incredibly= good new. The documentation maybe does not follow the common format, but i= t is perfectly fine for me. The sooner you include this in the tutorial the= projects/collaborators will use it. Because I was looking around and I cou= ldn't find anything.

>
>> - What's the actual status for the emacs-guile integration = and why is it abandoned since 2015?
>
>AFAIK, no one is actively working on Guile Emacs.  (And Guile it= self
>is developed much slower than Emacs is.)
>

Opposite to the previo= us one this is a terribly sad new. But at least the C API could work for wh= at I wanted.


><= br clear=3D"none">>We just got a JIT branch a few days ago, please take = a look and help
>work towards eventually landing it.>

I will try it sp= ecially for benchmarking. I'm so tired of listening Vim users talking about= how fast it is. Hope this could help to reduce the gap.
=
I would prefer that packages could compile to native cod= e with gcc or so, (not only because of the expected speedup, but also for d= ebugging facilities already available); maybe giving to the user the option= to choose between bytecode/JIT/gcc and they will give live to the most suc= cessful one, but I understand that this requires a manpower unavailable now= .

>
>I'm not s= ure I understand what you suggest in practical terms here.
>

I just suggest a cleanup/deleti= on/ deprecation advice in Elpa/Melpa. It is not a programming suggestion, b= ut almost a logistical one. Because for new users it is confusing which pac= kage to install and the suggestions in the Wiki are usually the older optio= ns. So basically I have the feeling we have a volume of packages unmaintain= able for the number of active developers I see. For example most of the doc= umentation suggests to use smex while it is abandoned and the "successor" i= s amx fully functional and maintained. New users will install smex facing t= he already solved bugs. But also some new packages will use the old one for= new purposes. Younger people need to know emacs from scratch as they grow = with other completely different tools.

>
>Emacs is much more flexible, and different peo= ple have different
>needs.
>
Yes, but someone who opens emacs for the first time will open= it to edit text and very probably to program, he should have color prefere= nces and for sure he doesn't know how to add packages and the elpa reposito= ry (maybe don't even know about about something called elpa), so, the most = basic customization options. If comes from vim/nano/gedit he will need some= assistance that emacs can bring (not only the tutorial, but evile, bindkey= s), but he don't know how get there. Maybe he prefers to use always the ter= minal version instead of the graphical one, or he will read the manual and = something keybinds doesn't work, and blame emacs when tmux was the guilty. =
>
>But that doesn't mean people = cannot come up with such proposals.
>Please do propose= practical changes, and they will be reviewed.

I really want to, sadly I am totally inexpert using elisp out of = my personal configuration. I just started reading the elisp documentation l= ike 2 months ago, and after this I will need to start with the coding style= s and so on. So it will take a while before I could contribute in the adult= league :( . BTW: Whats the best documentation (from scratch) to learn elis= p and the emacs developement environment? Do you have anything like for exa= mple: "The Linux Programming Interface" from "Michael Kerrisk" but for Emac= s?

Very thanks for your previous repl= y.

Ergus
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