From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:50:13 +0100 Message-ID: <44446637.PyEFFFD7HL@galex-713.eu> References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35960"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , Jean Louis To: Jacob Hrbek Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 28 15:07:26 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOggO-00094t-Os for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:07:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49374 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOggN-0005JQ-KK for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:07:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39716) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgQ7-0003Re-DK for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:50:35 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:5884:8305::1] (port=41872 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgQ2-0000hi-4u for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:50:32 -0500 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgPq-00Dqnc-Cw; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 14:50:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:5884:8305::1 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:136286 Archived-At: Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 46:56 CET Jacob Hrbek a =C3= =A9crit : > > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software. >=20 > One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the > promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do since the matter (software freedom) is complex, you can do both at the same= time > It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's > used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000 > 000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death. It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this happening (= like a specific=20 example of a software used by putin=E2=80=99s army). If freedom of circulation was used to help a soldier, would you stop callin= g that freedom of=20 circulation? same for freedom of speech? freedom of belief? etc. etc. etc. You cannot unilaterally decide words have no meaning anymore, or your arbit= rary one, on=20 the mere basis oppression exists somewhere. > What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free > Software =46ree Software still is full of communists, with many important people bei= ng procapitalism=20 socdems, and an overrepresentation even among neonazis: the movement is pol= itically=20 very diverse, and the values are difficult to widden further. To me, for i= nstance, the link to=20 anarchocommunism is obvious, but i=E2=80=99m also in the best position to o= bserve it=E2=80=99s not to most:=20 otherwise you wouldn=E2=80=99t disagree. So that=E2=80=99s useless. You are arguing for the same discursive diversion Ethical Licenses have, on= the ground it is=20 fair to use oppression (given by the modern power that modern copyright, el= itism and=20 technological opacity enables) to fight oppression. I swear this is the EX= ACT same mindset=20 that is enabling russian soldiers to believe they=E2=80=99re fighting for f= reedom right now in=20 ukraine. > instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this > namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and > developers comfortably prefer to not exist: >=20 > * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can > help your neighbour_ >=20 > How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here? Since neighboors are numerous and politically diverse, it is obvious in cas= e of conflict=20 helping one neighboor is harming another, and vice versa, harming a neighbo= or is helping=20 another. The freedom shall be guaranteed to avoid oppression using compute= rs. Typically=20 the ones against which free software protects: the oppression of some progr= ammer and or=20 their boss, over users. And you are advocating to abandon that fight, and = to increase that=20 oppression, in order to fight another oppression. Naively thinking that wo= n=E2=80=99t last further,=20 be pushed further, or be used back against you. > We are > enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the > threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and > invasion of finland and swed > en to kill us and our neighbours and worse > in my case my slav brothers and sisters. I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn. I try to ke= ep calm by thinking=20 of it like an abscess we have to burn out at some point. Putin always have= been a threat=20 anyway. Some solution have to be found. Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution. Even your propositions = are dummy,=20 inefficient, and misdirected (you were suggesting to remove freedoms of the= people=20 oppressed by the same oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest= against=20 him). > Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources > that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their > technological infrastructure. you should know that most of free software is used through distributions th= at, even with a=20 rolling release cycle, would be too slow to act before a such war end. moreover, whatever we do, the past versions of our software are already arc= hived on all=20 the planet (because of caches, local mirrors, etc. including in all russia)= , so whatever we=20 do, it will be as limited as the amount of progress we can do during the wa= r=E2=80=A6 so very=20 limited. moreover, like several said: copyright is not effective against a state (an= d russia is known=20 not to respect it already), and landwise censorship to be ineffective over = the internet. therefore, you have no proposition. it is unfortunate, but your work and i= ts possibilities=20 have little to do or relate to this war. if you want to change something, = gather material=20 help. but i think you should first seek for emotional support among the pe= ople closest to=20 you, as the most calm, the most efficient you will be. > > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political >=20 > leaders do is wrong. >=20 > I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia > who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across > russian federation as "The Heroes of > Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and > i do whatever i can to support them. no, you advocated and stated you would ban them from your software, how is = that=20 support? I really wish you everything good that can happen to you, may you be strong= =E2=80=A6