From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD= gives confusing results Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <443f2e44-5167-48e7-abc6-cce1e243461e@default> References: <> <<83vb0fgu83.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1468073483 25120 80.91.229.3 (9 Jul 2016 14:11:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:11:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 23926@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Noam Postavsky Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 09 16:11:09 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsyL-00026M-Ix for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:11:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51075 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsyH-00072A-Hj for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:11:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47508) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsxK-0005Qi-SD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:10:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsxG-0004G3-JP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:10:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:60132) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsxG-0004Fz-GA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:10:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLsxG-0003zt-Ae for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:10:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23926-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807336915321 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:10:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:09:29 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44236 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLswi-0003z3-W4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:09:29 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:43123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLswh-0003yq-DN for 23926@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:09:27 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69E9KKh018423 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:21 GMT Original-Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69E9KBr022556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:20 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u69E9JeI020361; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:09:19 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83vb0fgu83.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:120690 Archived-At: > > (defcustom time (current-time-string) "the time" :type 'string) > > > > Then try to M-x customize-options RET time RET, it will show with > > state "CHANGED outside Customize." Similarly, doing v time RET > > shows the "original value" as the current time, not the actual value > > when `time' was defined. >=20 > Why is this a bug? Seems to be expected behavior to me. Noam can provide his explanation. For my part: 1. The "original value" shown by `C-h v' is not the original value. In fact, it might never have been the value of the variable, and it might never become its value. This much is a doc problem. What is shown is the result of evaluating, in the current context, the original, defining Lisp sexp. And if this is really what we want to show then it would be good to also show what that Lisp sexp is. If it is large then provide a button/link to show it completely. And it might be good to also show the actual original value, i.e., the value when the variable was first set, however it was set. (The original value could have been set without evaluating the original Lisp sexp of the defcustom.) 2. Is it not a bug that Customize tells you that the value was changed outside Customize? In what way was it changed outside Customize? In fact, it was not even changed. How about the reverse: Why do you think this is not a bug? What is expected about the behavior "changed outside" or the behavior of saying that the "original value" is something different from the original value?