From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:19:26 -0700 Message-ID: <440F85513FF24D2EAEA3FE91FE6DA6C1@us.oracle.com> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net><62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com><87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net><1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com><87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net><2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com><87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net><5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com><87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa7uu1e.fsf@kanis.fr> <87hbjr9x71.fsf@lola.goethe.zz><87d3uf9vb2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrsmully.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279909280 30179 80.91.229.12 (23 Jul 2010 18:21:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:21:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'David Kastrup' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Miles Bader'" , "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 23 20:21:19 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMs1-0003Fq-9h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:21:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46969 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcMs0-0008C8-Jq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:21:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=54624 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcMrw-0008C2-0X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:21:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMrt-0004AF-Gi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:21:11 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:56686) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcMrr-00045B-Ba; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:21:07 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6NIL4q8026738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:21:05 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6NIIu04002868; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:21:00 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt013.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 453349411279909167; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:19:27 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.216.179) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:19:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87wrsmully.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Thread-Index: AcsqkchXof1Y3Mk7TRmKbUORshKiDgAAFuxg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4C49DD8F.022E:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127718 Archived-At: > I've watched at least one CUA-accustomed complete Emacs noob learn > Emacs, and who didn't seemed bothered at all by the lack of C-x/etc > (they just used the menus for those things until they had become > accustomed to Emacs keys). Don't forget that you are talking to an Emacs non-noob who uses CUA-mode (IIUC) and Viper. IOW, your newbie who learned Emacs is not someone Lennart is likely to identify with (or vice versa). Old-timers who never tried, or never learned to use, or never accepted Emacs key bindings, and who repeatedly push here for Emacs to lose its default bindings in favor of the emulation modes _they_ happen to be in the habit of using are _not_ typical of either Emacs users in general or Emacs newbies. They are as dyed-in-the-wool as us other Emacs hard-liners. They are simply dyed in an emulation wool. They try to carry high and monopolize the "Newbie" banner, but IMO they do not speak for Emacs newbies. "Newbie uber alles." But which newbie? (And yes, I do consider both CUA mode and Viper to be legitimate, first-class citizens in the Emacs world. One is not non-Emacs or anti-Emacs if one uses an emulation mode. Emacs is bigger than either of them or any other emulation mode, however.)