From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: describe-bindings: ^L, bad order, naming Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4378AEA4.3030901@student.lu.se> References: <4373BDF2.90106@student.lu.se> <5B24B171-FABB-40C4-90C8-248240E4EF8B@gmail.com> <4377D807.5070402@student.lu.se> <87iruvn9c2.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1131982760 15631 80.91.229.2 (14 Nov 2005 15:39:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:39:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, miles@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 14 16:39:19 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EbgNK-0008J4-9n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:36:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EbgNJ-0005Up-PO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:36:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EbgNA-0005Uk-CB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:35:56 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EbgN8-0005UY-UI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:35:56 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EbgN8-0005UV-Pr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:35:54 -0500 Original-Received: from [81.228.8.83] (helo=pne-smtpout1-sn2.hy.skanova.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EbgMO-00043a-Cj; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:35:08 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.168.123.121] (83.249.218.244) by pne-smtpout1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (7.2.060.1) id 43721F89001547F7; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:35:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Original-To: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87iruvn9c2.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:45957 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier wrote: >>It is the sum of all newbie unfriendliness that counts. At least for >>the newbie. >> >> > >If they want Notepad, they know where to find it, > > I would say that one of the challenges when making software is making complex functionality available in a way that is at the same time both simple and flexible. Making things behave similar at the surface is a tool for this. It makes the complexity less for the beginners. Maybe I think this is more important since I am (still) using Emacs on w32 and that is a bit more complex than using it in a *nix style environment I believe. The learning curve is heavier and often you run into small things that stops you from what you want to do. (For example tools that does not accept w32 line style.) Those small things together takes an awful lot of time. >PS: By the way, AFAIK, keyboard shortcuts are the things displayed in menus >saying how you can use the keyboard to get the same result. Key bindings >are slightly different since they exist completely independently from menus. >The two are related but not identical. > > Probably that is the history. But I believe that has changed because software UI has become more flexible. In some common applications (MS Office) you can decide what to have in the menus without changing what they call keyboard shortcuts. Looking at the documentation for OpenOffice.org they seem to use "keyboard shortcuts" the same way. They also use the term "shortcut keys" for the same thing.