Re: SPC in custom-mode

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[LENNART BORGMAN]

From: Joakim Verona <joakim@verona.se>

> If some windows users want emacs to be more windows-gui consistent on
> their plattform, cant these changes go into Cua mode or something?

Yes, it is a good suggestion to use a global minor mode, but how should that be done? Can the global minor mode keymap be made buffer local? (or is it perhaps?) When, in this case, should that be done? Examples?

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[joakim]

Im no expert on Cua mode, but I suppose the problem ought to be solveable
by adding mode specific hooks to change the keymaps of other modes 
within the startup code of cua.el.

/Joakim

LENNART BORGMAN wrote:

>From: Joakim Verona <joakim@verona.se>
>
>  
>
>>If some windows users want emacs to be more windows-gui consistent on
>>their plattform, cant these changes go into Cua mode or something?
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, it is a good suggestion to use a global minor mode, but how should that be done? Can the global minor mode keymap be made buffer local? (or is it perhaps?) When, in this case, should that be done? Examples?
>  
>

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Kim F. Storm]

joakim <joakim@verona.se> writes:

> Im no expert on Cua mode, but I suppose the problem ought to be solveable
> by adding mode specific hooks to change the keymaps of other modes
> within the startup code of cua.el.
>

If you have specific suggestions, I can consider them.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Lennart Borgman]

Kim F. Storm wrote:

>joakim <joakim@verona.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Im no expert on Cua mode, but I suppose the problem ought to be solveable
>>by adding mode specific hooks to change the keymaps of other modes
>>within the startup code of cua.el.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>If you have specific suggestions, I can consider them.
>
We had that long discussion about <cut>, <copy> and <paste> in the Edit 
menu. Unfortunately there was no result of that as far as I can see. (I 
still have no idea where this are on my keyboard and they seem very 
special.)

One (important) suggestion is that these entries are replaced by 
cua-mode C-x, C-c and C-v. The undo entry should also be marked with C-z.

SPC in custom-mode

[Lennart Borgman]

SPC in custom buffers currently always scrolls the buffer. I do not 
think this is the expected behaviour by most users.

A common use of SPC (web browsers, w32 programs) is to "push the button" 
when keyboard focus is on the button. I think that would be better - at 
least when focus is on a button.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> SPC in custom buffers currently always scrolls the buffer. I do not 
> think this is the expected behaviour by most users.
>
> A common use of SPC (web browsers, w32 programs) is to "push the button" 
> when keyboard focus is on the button. I think that would be better - at 
> least when focus is on a button.

I believe the choice of bindings was made to mimic info mode.  If the
binding is changed in customize, info mode should also be changed.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Lennart Borgman]

Per Abrahamsen wrote:

>Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
>
>  
>
>>SPC in custom buffers currently always scrolls the buffer. I do not 
>>think this is the expected behaviour by most users.
>>
>>A common use of SPC (web browsers, w32 programs) is to "push the button" 
>>when keyboard focus is on the button. I think that would be better - at 
>>least when focus is on a button.
>>    
>>
>
>I believe the choice of bindings was made to mimic info mode.  If the
>binding is changed in customize, info mode should also be changed.
>
Thanks, but there are no buttons to push in Info? Perhaps it could be 
changed only when focus is on a button.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen wrote:
> Thanks, but there are no buttons to push in Info? 

There are plenty.  All the cross references and menu buttons.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Peter Whaite]

> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
> 
> > SPC in custom buffers currently always scrolls the buffer. I do not 
> > think this is the expected behaviour by most users.

And BSPC scrolls it backwards just like 'less', which is what I expect,
and what I like.

> > A common use of SPC (web browsers, w32 programs) is to "push the button" 
> > when keyboard focus is on the button. I think that would be better - at 
> > least when focus is on a button.

Thats in dialogs (not browser windows e.g.), and there I always use ENTER for
pushing buttons.  I do that in custom buffers too.

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote:
> I believe the choice of bindings was made to mimic info mode.  If the
> binding is changed in customize, info mode should also be changed.

Perhaps info mode was made to mimic less :-).
 
Must we always go the windows gui route?  Being able to use the left
mouse to push buttons is a good change, but I prefer to retain the unixy
less-like behaviour for scrolling around in read only buffers.


-- 
Peter Whaite

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Lennart Borgman]

Peter Whaite wrote:

>>>A common use of SPC (web browsers, w32 programs) is to "push the button" 
>>>when keyboard focus is on the button. I think that would be better - at 
>>>least when focus is on a button.
>>>      
>>>
>
>Thats in dialogs (not browser windows e.g.), and there I always use ENTER for
>pushing buttons.  I do that in custom buffers too.
>  
>
I just tested Firefox. SPC scrolls forward and S-SPC backward - unless 
you are on a button (like a normal button, checkbox or radiobutton). In 
that case SPC "clicks" the button.

>Perhaps info mode was made to mimic less :-).
>  
>
I did use less for a long time until I found a good editor...

> 
>Must we always go the windows gui route?  Being able to use the left
>mouse to push buttons is a good change, but I prefer to retain the unixy
>less-like behaviour for scrolling around in read only buffers.
>  
>
Firefox decided do as less for SPC but not for BSPC as far as I 
understand. I like the ability to be able to scroll forward with SPC. 
The only thing I am suggesting is that this behaviour should perhaps be 
changed when point is on a button. However this is by no means a big thing.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Peter Whaite]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
>
> I just tested Firefox. SPC scrolls forward and S-SPC backward - unless you are
> on a button (like a normal button, checkbox or radiobutton). In that case SPC
> "clicks" the button.

Details, details :-), but you're right -- thats what it does.

I guess that means on pages where there are no links, and in which there
is nothing but controls, you can't use SPC to scroll.

> I like the ability to be able to scroll forward with SPC. The only
> thing I am suggesting is that this behaviour should perhaps be changed
> when point is on a button. However this is by no means a big thing.

I dont think it should be changed.  Custom buffers are essentially a
long form containing only buttons.  In order to SPC scroll you would
have to move point off the button, and that sounds very inconvenient.

Why not just keep it simple.  SPC scrolls.  ENTER activates.

-- 
Peter Whaite

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Lennart Borgman]

Peter Whaite wrote:

>Why not just keep it simple.  SPC scrolls.  ENTER activates.
>  
>
Because I have several times pressed SPC instead of ENTER. I guess I 
will not be the only one - or I hope I will not be the only one. It is 
quite confusing and unexpected that the buffer scrolls in this situation.

But there are more important things to consider at the moment of course.

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Mathias Dahl]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

>>Why not just keep it simple.  SPC scrolls.  ENTER activates.
>>  
>>
> Because I have several times pressed SPC instead of ENTER. I guess I
> will not be the only one - or I hope I will not be the only one. It is
> quite confusing and unexpected that the buffer scrolls in this
> situation.

I have been using Windows in different forms since back in 1990 and I
probably know more about all keyboard shortcuts in Windows than most
people do. I too use SPC to activate raised/marked buttons but also
RET sometimes.

I would say that if I had to choose which of SPC and RET (or ENTER if
you want, although those are different keys in Emacs) that would
activate a button, RET would be the most probable one.

Maybe I have just been using Emacs for too long now...

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Joakim Verona]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:

> Peter Whaite wrote:
>
>>Why not just keep it simple.  SPC scrolls.  ENTER activates.
>>  

I think its much more important that Emacs is consistent within itself
than that Emacs is consistent with some random gui.

So I think:

- Custom and Info should be more alike than they are today.
- Eshell and Shell mode should be more alike as well.

And other random things:

- comment-region should always be bound to the same key

And so on. There are many such discrepancies in Emacs.


If some windows users want emacs to be more windows-gui consistent on
their plattform, cant these changes go into Cua mode or something?

One of the bad things with Windows is that MS changes the GUI now and
then, for no apparent benefit. Key-bindings, for instance, change with
the language you have installed A Windows app with.

On the other hand, C-x C-f will always find a file in emacs, which is
a great benefit.



> Because I have several times pressed SPC instead of ENTER. I guess I 
> will not be the only one - or I hope I will not be the only one. It is 
> quite confusing and unexpected that the buffer scrolls in this situation.
>
> But there are more important things to consider at the moment of course.

-- 
Joakim Verona
www.verona.se

Re: SPC in custom-mode

[Richard M. Stallman]

    Must we always go the windows gui route?  Being able to use the left
    mouse to push buttons is a good change, but I prefer to retain the unixy
    less-like behaviour for scrolling around in read only buffers.

I agree with you.  There is no reason to make SPC "push buttons" in Emacs.
People, let's please drop that idea.

The amount of discussion going on now is distracting.  Even ignoring
the Windows-specific and Mac-specific issues, I can't read it all.
Please don't raise any more issues now.