From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17362: 24.4.50; inconsistent key notation: `ESC' vs `' Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 08:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4294927c-08b3-4c65-83e4-1582e8d0d859@default> References: <<47b1a857-a5d6-4e5a-b8f6-f96f9e201c89@default>> <> <> <<83fvkwmagn.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1398786157 15329 80.91.229.3 (29 Apr 2014 15:42:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:42:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 29 17:42:29 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAq-0000kE-V0 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:42:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50750 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAq-00021f-JI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:42:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49597) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAe-0001nZ-0Q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:42:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAV-0000t8-60 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:42:11 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:56120) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAV-0000t2-3F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:42:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfAAU-0006S7-Ib for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:42:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17362 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D17362.139878606824715 (code D ref 17362); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:42:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17362-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 15:41:08 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45238 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfA9b-0006QY-Is for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:41:07 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41155) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfA9Y-0006Pl-L9 for 17362-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:41:05 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s3TFewBU025980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:40:58 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s3TFevkI029334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:40:57 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s3TFerDx028049; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:40:57 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83fvkwmagn.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:88435 Archived-At: > - If a key does not have a label, its name should be in all caps, > as in @key{TAB} or @key{META}. >=20 > - There are 2 exceptions to the last 2 rules, both for historical > reasons: >=20 > * @key{BACKSPACE}, although many keyboards have a "Backspace" > label on it. >=20 > * @key{ESC}, which is labeled "Esc". Eli, are you saying that you have replaced , , etc. everywhere with , , etc., or that you think it is appropriate to do so? Seems like that would be a big change from the past and a change from how Emacs itself communicates with users. AFAIK, Emacs writes for the Delete key etc. The rule for function keys and pseudo function keys has always been to use lowercase (in angle brackets), no? I thought that we used uppercase only for the ASCII control chars: TAB, RET, ESC, and DEL, and not for key sequences involving pseudo function keys and . (I also thought that we specifically did NOT enclose the former in angle brackets, but I guess that's another story.) You will perhaps say that refers only to the keyboard key, and not to an Emacs key sequence. In that case, it should not appear as part of a key sequence notation, IMO. And I would have thought that the keyboard keys would anyway be written the same as they are on the keyboard: Tab, Backspace, Delete, Esc, not , , , . It seems to me that: 1. The way Emacs talks to users, via `kbd', `edmacro-parse-keys', and help output in general should not be changed. 2. The doc (manual) should follow the same conventions as `kbd', `edmacro-parse-keys' and help output in general. I am more concerned about #1 than #2. I don't actually see you proposing any change wrt #1 so far, which is good. I do not, however, see a good reason why Emacs doc (manuals) should represent key sequences differently than Emacs help does. That kind of goes against Occam's razor, multiplying things unnecessarily. Let me know if I am misunderstanding something. I admit to feeling a bit confused now by the various notations. I thought it was pretty straightforward: just ASCII control char names (uppercase), function keys and pseudo function keys (lowercase, in angle brackets). It no longer seems so straightforward and simple.