From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: ken Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:31:46 -0500 Message-ID: <423DA572.8030602@speakeasy.net> References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> Reply-To: gebser@speakeasy.net NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111337096 30574 80.91.229.2 (20 Mar 2005 16:44:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:44:56 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 20 17:44:54 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD3X7-0008WU-H7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:44:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD3o2-0002vR-TC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:01:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DD3mZ-0002gz-AN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:00:07 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DD3mV-0002eW-8M for Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:00:03 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD3mS-0002aQ-Vp for Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:00:01 -0500 Original-Received: from [69.17.117.29] (helo=mail27.sea5.speakeasy.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1DD3NM-0006C2-1m for Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:34:04 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 17926 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2005 16:34:02 -0000 Original-Received: from dsl093-011-017.cle1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO [192.168.0.100]) (cousin@[66.93.11.17]) (envelope-sender ) by mail27.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 20 Mar 2005 16:34:01 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040831 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, ru, fr-fr Original-To: PT , Help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:25039 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:25039 PT wrote: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:47:54 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> From: PT >>> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:40:54 +0100 >>> >>> > C-h t >>> >>> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial are >>> leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards. >> As a touch-typist, I avoid the arrow keys, as well as the PageUp, PageDown, and all the other keys in that section of the keyboard. And I avoid applications which force me to use them. What I like about emacs is that I don't have to use these keys. They really get in the way of productivity. >> >> [....] > > > > By arrow keys I also mean text selection with shift+arrow keys, etc. > It is pretty standard in modern systems, so it should be turned on by > default. Same applies here as above. If you like using these kinds of keybindings, why don't you simply use an editor that uses them. It sounds like learning something new is too advanced for you. > >>> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn new >>> keybindings for cursor movement. >> >> >> [....] > It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for someone who doesn't want to spend a half hour learning the basics of a new application. You don't sound at all like a heretic; rather, it sounds like you're just really lazy. Emacs is a great editor (and a lot more). But, yeah, you have to learn a few new things in order to use it. Rather than wasting time and bandwidth whining about how *hard* it is (because it really isn't all that hard), why not just spend some time learning? > > > [....] > I think the most frequent features should be reachable with a single > key binding or with a multikey binding which involves at most two keys. > > For example, F2 which is a single-key binding controls two column mode > if I'm not mistaken while save-buffer which is frequent operation is > on C-x C-s. Dees it make sense from a newbie's point of view? Which > feature will he use more frequently? > > C-o would be nice for opening a file, but C-x C-f? Now that's a bit > strange if I'm new to Emacs. > > I know these are traditional bindings, but they are strange > nevertheless. At least that's what the newbies tell me. ("Emacs? You > have to know a lot of long key combinations to use it. Too > complicated.") I'm guessing that there's millions of people using emacs and doing so quite happily. Do you seriously think it's a good idea to change keybindings that millions of people are accustomed to simply because you don't want to spend a half hour to learn them? Sorry to sound harsh, but your suggestions need to be put in perspective. -- A lot of us are working harder than we want, at things we dont like to do. Why? ...In order to afford the sort of existence we don't care to live. -- Bradford Angier