From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:04:40 +0200 Message-ID: <40fec2bb-b9d3-5b19-749e-7b1480560188@yandex.ru> References: <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> <8735wnjsum.fsf@gnus.org> <83sg4n9jei.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2efhx3e.fsf@gnus.org> <838s6f9g5d.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2efgg3w.fsf@gnus.org> <878s6fgdzu.fsf@gnus.org> <19c1ec9e-a97f-a8ab-b966-edadbc299c39@yandex.ru> <83mtuu8gdz.fsf@gnu.org> <87tup26om4.fsf@posteo.net> <831rc682js.fsf@gnu.org> <1bfef8b5-aa26-f64f-1e3b-06aabc9e9939@yandex.ru> <83y2ee6kmx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30514"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, bugs@gnu.support, emacs-devel@gnu.org, gregory@heytings.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 23 19:21:34 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lOleo-0007oE-3R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:21:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40326 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOlem-0001Of-UO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:21:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33582) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOkSV-0005qG-Pn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:04:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]:44641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOkST-0000eR-C3; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:04:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id j4-20020a05600c4104b029010c62bc1e20so11260058wmi.3; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:04:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YdDNmBdoljwUJ9smkLUC4ynmDNLDqaaAUjxw+tvMDPs=; b=ltX7UARSyacDZg0fzANcUMOIPVe7FwcTxtiECmz9bRk3RiaD/DIFcXcjdl8qmJM+Dd aBjdAGkphHb1i+gJ8Sx9/HwbgaK1vNgV58iByzEJ2BnYXjFhB4j+Zgn38r7x6g55Fkkn pj4Lh4FLC6PNF/nR2B7yagaufSgqU/5KR6UAQaeJYwlDXpSlXhW9mXNWhx4TPC2FMuGT ND/1wULj8/9ucPKRIgZuakKUT9tf/XA6hm2LLL+lvQrkGeatnSFJNGtaUCV1Zb7oXG26 Z197smZimb6FhwdFOv378ZZb7dARQN8DkeyFJrVIfKTW4nUuSUuiWm0ZkPtvkJ4Sf9jU xsSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YdDNmBdoljwUJ9smkLUC4ynmDNLDqaaAUjxw+tvMDPs=; b=lWShHgw+2UTwXbseAdh5X54oOmyxAzhhpJs4PgW3Vrq6kKNOO73ckUYqiJL3qzc7KU WAC8lZJDxabwcG8VEhp9rxWB/Ez6OrARdeFvg2tr7LBmQ/TY8I/2JWAfZq6JdgqzCdok KOHQuku4nhgIMDaDjt3Lqgn/a7vFybQG2UsfWQnWeifgiKURNlisSrXqoIsRjSRCV5TF 4CdslRb5hd9SCVEAAMBr6Gy1mODC8MQmZYrYfadiwoV7KXFOsuZwi1qBZGUWj812gtXw 8b2GclilI6QkPiULpdMe9rAx9cVZxToaF5D2J3JKV0iBPX/mK54/40akYqgRBJpZMQl8 OjWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532K9h7LD067y5wWej1SR3GGkxv0Vu4NeL+uOk+MOCqN1JJNgaOK d0LdlvIhZv08b3uDw1Iepsc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJya54XGiaRQvOVz38HqxyXXje6wi4YmIN/PZ8ffBO1nfADwL+VPkN1X1m5z5KmMka2P/x6uBA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7ed4:: with SMTP id z203mr4086005wmc.89.1616519083470; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q17sm23766554wrv.25.2021.03.23.10.04.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:04:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83y2ee6kmx.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32a; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266882 Archived-At: On 23.03.2021 15:54, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Cc: bugs@gnu.support, larsi@gnus.org, gregory@heytings.org, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:09:50 +0200 >> >> Having an alternative, well-considered set of bindings which new user >> can just toggle on and get comfortable should be valuable. > > I doubt that, because we already tried that in CUA mode. That one > actually was better posed to succeed, since its key bindings weren't > invented "out of thin air", but use widely accepted conventions. CUA mode is only halfway there (if that). It doesn't reach the other common bindings, such as C-o for 'open file', C-n for 'new file', C-s for 'save file', C-f for 'search forward', C-y for 'redo', C-a for 'select all'. And its dispatch is timer-based, as Yuri reminds us. Which is a constant source of subtle annoyance which makes its use untenable long-term, IMHO. Only as a set of training wheels for new users, but I wonder if even that is a good role for it, given that those annoyances create a worse impression of the editor for users who enabled it. > That said, I have no objection to having non-default sets of key > bindings that users can turn on at will. I was only responding to > what I thought was a proposal for conducting such experiments with the > eventual goal of making the bindings the default. You said "having a non-default theme that makes a bunch of such rebindings makes little sense to me". I have hopefully addressed that. And as for making such a theme a default, that's far off enough in the future not to worry about it much. But OTOH if we manage to make this "keybinding theme" approach work, even a switch to a different theme by default won't have to be too painful for the many existing users, since they would be able to turn on the "Emacs classic" keybinding theme, which we will surely create by then.