From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Konstantin Kharlamov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: contributing to Emacs Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:53:09 +0300 Message-ID: <3c64fe534fee45ff75c9e2c3cece8e2ee146091e.camel@yandex.ru> References: <83v8fnslfz.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8fnh1h2.fsf@web.de> <83mt0zs9rc.fsf@gnu.org> <0a968a4e1b267c0f15dd237e6ea12a709fc06d5e.camel@yandex.ru> <838rcisj7o.fsf@gnu.org> <6537fa5fa5c1fe8437ed99ee0988e35895f5a54b.camel@yandex.ru> <8423a35750d8d8e0437c7708f6b4d0bbdfdb7fe0.camel@yandex.ru> <6981052a75913ea435ae2adaccdaa1c66252a6df.camel@yandex.ru> <6a22f3608f37e238ffbd20d6dead86d3aa76d01e.camel@yandex.ru> <96766e99bf2618cc4290498933c6e32bc2a0f98a.camel@yandex.ru> <83o7ldpcs8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19410"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.2 Cc: ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 10:53:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoAR-0004wI-VS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 10:53:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAoA0-0006Rd-JG; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 04:53:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAo9y-0006RQ-Uq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 04:53:22 -0400 Original-Received: from forward502c.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:c03:500:1:45:d181:d502]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAo9u-0003ai-Ut; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 04:53:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-78.myt.yp-c.yandex.net (mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-78.myt.yp-c.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c12:3922:0:640:7af7:0]) by forward502c.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id B30A85E954; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:53:10 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: by mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-78.myt.yp-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id 9raDT4VWwSw0-zQuTDWbA; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:53:10 +0300 X-Yandex-Fwd: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1687078390; bh=oTCjm7+RDPn2nMB8mm4JkhZClJDlFY0RJX0UPTdPtrE=; h=References:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID; b=mbdVYCMTtUfCaeLQu/v2TlTYDl2T83vP+VFwnkg+Di7+Gi2MBFDVjj/ez+e/iT+qD xza+MKgzOKSxCNja8vvOdeIrrqZZ/bz2scxtkeFwkn+q3Uxl0CG2Ki4/kMNK4/RIY6 EDZIUwHJH/DRoc6p9SB0+nAQ7tqKUaRmaKoGHk/k= Authentication-Results: mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-78.myt.yp-c.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru In-Reply-To: <83o7ldpcs8.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:6b8:c03:500:1:45:d181:d502; envelope-from=hi-angel@yandex.ru; helo=forward502c.mail.yandex.net X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306922 Archived-At: On Sun, 2023-06-18 at 08:20 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Konstantin Kharlamov > > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, arne_bab@web.de, luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.= org > > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 01:39:17 +0300 > >=20 > > No. I measured specifically for you: "Sending Patches" alone is 5884 > > characters > > not counting bullets, and my email was 3491 characters. >=20 > When someone posts a patch, he or she is not requested to read that > section, let alone pass some kind of exam on being familiar with it. > I'm quite sure 99% of contributors don't even know that section exists > in the manual, and have never read it.=C2=A0 So the size of that node is > utterly irrelevant to how hard it is to contribute to Emacs. You can't send a patch if you don't know how and where to send it =F0=9F=98= =8A So you can't avoid reading that section. > If you are keen on studying how this is done and whether and how it > can be improved (as opposed to reiterating that "Cartage shall be > destroyed"), I invite you to read the typical discussions of such > submissions on our issue tracker.=C2=A0 There, you will see what we > _really_ require from the contributors and how the process goes. > Here's one recent example: >=20 > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64126 >=20 > Here's another: >=20 > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64045 >=20 > And one more: >=20 > =C2=A0 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D63913 I looked through these links but I'm not sure what they supposed to show me= . I've been contributing patches from time to time and back when I had my fir= st ones I've been multiple times pointed to CONTRIBUTE file due to getting eit= her formatting or something else wrong. Which is why I'm saying there's an expectation to read that file as well. > Yes, many other projects do it differently.=C2=A0 By and large, they are > toy projects whose median life time is about 1/10th that of Emacs, and > the size is accordingly small.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mesa isn't small. Neither is systemd, docker, podman. These are very active projects and they are in very active use today. If you go up the stack: Gno= me, KDE, they also are big active projects in use, and they use workflow simila= r to Mesa and systemd. There's also WINE as another example. > These quantitative differences call > for qualitatively different procedures.=C2=A0 Look at other large project= s, > like GCC and GDB, and you will see very similar procedures.=C2=A0 As a > matter of fact, GDB even tried several times to move to PR-like > patch-review workflow based on several available frameworks, and each > time went back, concluding that those frameworks are lacking some > important features.=C2=A0 I didn't know. Do you have a link at hand? I'd be curious to read what was = the problem. Apparently there wasn't an article on Phoronix about it, kind of s= ad. > So the issue is not as clear-cut and simple as > you seem to present it, and the Emacs maintainers perhaps know what > they are doing when they stick to what we have, and not just out of > obstinance.