From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#36478: Perhaps rearrange *Help* buffer a bit? Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3c3e15e3-ab92-430a-ba21-adb6224cbb55@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="198205"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: bug#36478 <36478@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 09 01:27:38 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hkd2l-000pH9-Mm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 01:27:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45600 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hkcyx-0005mQ-7R for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Mon, 08 Jul 2019 23:21:58 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x68NIGD0086501; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:21:58 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2tjhpcrfc6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 23:21:58 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x68NLrVg016751; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:21:54 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4861.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9312 signatures=668688 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1907080286 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9312 signatures=668688 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1907080287 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:162400 Archived-At: > > Here's my favorite color: > > - don't move it to the end, because it's much too far. > > - hide it by default, with some obvious-enough button-like thingy to > > expand it on demand. > > - maybe the first line could also be moved into this "metadata" block. >=20 > A button that says "Technical details..." or something? Or... a > text-less button would perhaps be better. FWIW, I think I disagree with handling all such "metadata" equally, e.g. hiding it all by default. To me, it makes sense to show, without fishing, that a function is autoloaded (e.g. not yet loaded), compiled, etc.; and to show its definition location, with a link to it; and to show a link to its advice - especially if the advice changes the doc (which is what the help is mainly for); and to show a variable's value. Such things are helpful for most users, I think, and they're not in the way. Such things are not so concerned with "our" implementation details as they are with the definition - what the thing is/does. This is a bit like using `C-u C-x =3D'. Both kinds of help can and do show lots of information. And it's not good to overwhelm users at the outset with too much info, especially in a not-very-organized way. But I think that for `*Help*' the info we've long shown is pretty much user-oriented. It's more a question of organization. I objected, in bug #36478, to sticking the following kind of info near the top, before even the first line of the doc string: This function has a compiler macro 'zerop--anon-cmacro'. Dunno how useful that info is, but a priori that's not the place to stick it, IMO. =20 Many users (I'm one) have no clue what a "compiler macro" is or why they should care. (And it's not explained in the manual, which is a big part of what bug bu#36478g is about.) But if that info is actually useful for users (I'm ignorant, so can't judge that) and if it were put at or near the end of `*Help*' (and if "compiler macro" got documented, and especially if those words linked to the place in the manual where that's documented), then I'd have no problem with it.