From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 16:44:44 +0300 Message-ID: <3b9259d8-4121-531e-5dd9-4eef9ef4a69a@gmail.com> References: <42c93165-2d85-8501-9cc8-99830b7b3646@gmail.com> <37bdcd8e-2bb4-fd21-d833-838bd26f5e56@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503582308 10310 195.159.176.226 (24 Aug 2017 13:45:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 13:45:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Radon Rosborough Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 24 15:45:00 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dksRP-0002AZ-Dh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 15:44:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48728 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dksRU-0006nK-LC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 09:45:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46348) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dksRJ-0006e0-Bs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 09:44:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dksRG-0003Xy-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 09:44:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf0-x229.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c07::229]:38629) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dksRF-0003Xm-TN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 09:44:50 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id b70so2961939lfe.5 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 06:44:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Lg1nQCTlsH6sKq5tHRuEoi2NNoeVlTojaVUCaoWk90c=; b=O5WylTYE3C3avKHOevbLWC29iVudxtB+ugCODwtOcnXibwDrRnvWtDw7QQTMbYYNiH egBZjsQrt7eHajGVr1nNxhwz7fjf1Bzupngu1c3Y1LkrKUZU6CVDUj3vP5ycLZJWur2R jJbur3tyx9tbq3YV0NB8UWSnH2bvmlP5258eC9ezUnAV8eT9v2oBgM3h75HRZhT27rWf qx2WtQLPDYldZKl9OYzr2ZZgmnsCNnYaA29oESc57c/QIJCxkUjO1iZxXxin/0Dz29vJ hSFdKiBpuhxhc/rAcALV39kvT2fj6cyLSqWrolEuNdyLBmtJm2TPysUiTJjPDH+YfYAk hmGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=Lg1nQCTlsH6sKq5tHRuEoi2NNoeVlTojaVUCaoWk90c=; b=TQprdsGdNlGbaY2Q9E3xWqjA6t1DrpF3Kd8j2iFUlpYxY0UFndGOvQzCgOYfVVEEyj SlQboIqGdFCIL56sT+G8eVTs1L2/kifAmAkY/j0nJR6Loz+ktY/EQrH93qzZb/Hu4tsZ /nAwaSFv46ybrXGm+iwvi7OosvzpynznHroR7zPCRwFnez1GVGzcrR8z1892d4UsOmYK 65VljhZavJnQqbx+hQYVf5i/96wEtoXDTkvjnCikqgspxCkWr6kDnfw5+QMPwsQlLoSZ mAhIlY5zINXuI1b6XPVieRVc2aUYIQb9CJN9Xd7o/xxpA7pNiOJJ3aK1CfEkCWZm2rDX MCfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gihaZ1c4g4lj1jeJwqt9fkI/n2nFsrQOFYuWw/a5YxBPw8FMfg mLBFHG9uvRkfONmVW8k= X-Received: by 10.46.1.3 with SMTP id 3mr2484067ljb.85.1503582288177; Thu, 24 Aug 2017 06:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.199.6] (broadband-95-84-209-126.moscow.rt.ru. [95.84.209.126]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t23sm628017ljd.40.2017.08.24.06.44.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Aug 2017 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c07::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217761 Archived-At: > It's not clear that there is any shortcoming in Emacs internals. The whole discussion is a proof that there is. All the practical solutions here are bad. Including mine. > But you still haven't addressed the real problem, which is that when > Emacs inserts `package-initialize' into the init-file, it usually does > so incorrectly. I have addressed this before - "in case you a)don't use package.el and b)don't use any other package manager and c)don't suppress the proposed message manually, it's pretty safe to assume that you don't have much of init anyway and you're our intended target". We can add: d)you choose to do that insertion. When we combine abcd, such insertion would almost always improve users init. Won't fix other possible problems, but would still be an improvement. Also, please note that such optional insertion is quite secondary to my proposal, just warning user without any interactive options is fine with me too. P. S. I think that instead of using the phrase "second init-file" you should use "separate package.el config". Talking about a second init creates more confusion and resistance from other people, than necessary. Though I still feel that having a separate package.el config would not have been warranted even if it was the only alternative to the current dumb (package-initialize) insertion. -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev