Re: Feeling lost without tabs

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Dan Espen]

Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs.
>
> I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show
> tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things,
> but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that
> remind me which project I was last working on.
>
> I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also
> takes a a lot of screen real estate.
>
> I'm wondering how others overcame this.

The multiple keys part is easy:

(define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list)

Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often?

For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance.
I've got the WM set to no title bar for emacs.
I've got emacs customized for no toolbar and no menubar.
So, all I've got in Emacs windows is text.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Bob Proulx]

Dan Espen wrote:
> The multiple keys part is easy:
> (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list)
> Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often?

Since we are both using electric-buffer-list I know we are in the same
group on that.  It is great.  :-)

But as for binding to a function key to avoid C-x C-b being two keys I
will respond that F9 isn't in the home row of keys.  On the standard
IBM PC style keyboard one must move the hands from the home row and
find and hit that single key.  I touch type but I would need to look
to hit that one accurately.  That is a much higher finger workload
than simply typing two control keys from the normal finger typing
position that can be done by touch typing.

Although I expected that some people will raise the case that chorded
keys are multiple keys.  But at least in my brain chorded control keys
"feel" like one keystroke and not two.  Like many old Unix keyboard
users I bind the capslock key to be control so that it is where it
"should" be again.  Then I type control keys just about as quickly and
as effortlessly as any other non-control-chorded key.

I live by C-x C-b C-n ... SPACE all of the time to change buffers.
And to toggle back and forth between two buffers C-x b to select the
previously selected buffer.  It really goes very fast.

> For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance.
> I've got the WM set to no title bar for emacs.
> I've got emacs customized for no toolbar and no menubar.
> So, all I've got in Emacs windows is text.

Me too to all of the above.  Remove the extra fluff.  Maximumize the
amount of edit buffer for what I am editing.

Bob

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs.
>
> I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show tabs.

You are not the first to experience this. A lot of
people got used to tabs from Firefox (or if it was
called Mozilla back then) and then it suddenly was a
common feature everywhere. (It would be interesting who
came up with it first though.)

In the Emacs world, I only have tabs in w3m
(screenshot: [1]), though in function names, commands,
etc. sometimes what I intuitively think of as tabs,
they refer to as buffers...

> I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by
> various things, but when I come back to the seat it
> is the tabs that remind me which project I was last
> working on.

`buffer-menu' would help you with that, as the most
recently used buffers are topmost.

> I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys

You can define your own shortcut. For example, I have
<caps> bring up the `buffer-menu'.

Specifically, I use this defun:

(defun buffer-menu-files-only ()
  (interactive)
  (buffer-menu (not Buffer-menu-files-only)) )

It means, if I hit it again while the buffer menu is
shown, I get a new buffer menu, this time not only
showing "file buffers" but also buffers of w3m, Gnus,
and so on.
  
> and it also takes a a lot of screen real estate.

Yes, for this, `buffer-menu' is even worse than
`list-buffers' (the one you get with `C-x C-b') because
`buffer-menu' uses the whole window. On the other hand,
that makes it impossible to use as a poor-man's
substitute for tabs, so you just go there to switch
buffer.

If you really like tabs, neither of these methods are
good. You need to find a tab package for Emacs.

The `buffer-menu' solution is good for simple switches,
but for more ambitious projects, and files that occur
regularly, I have a system that is based on keystrokes
and prefixes. `C-j e' is my "Emacs prefix", so `C-j e
e' is ~/.emacs, `C-j e f' is a file where I keep all
everything related to reaching files (f) from Emacs,
`C-j g g' is configurations/extentions for Gnus groups,
`C-j t' is ~/todo.txt, and so on. For a programming
project, I employ the same system, but with different
prefixes and/or keys, of course. Every single file I
setup this way. It is time consuming in the early phase
but then it is so fast it is not a loss of time, on the
contrary. But the main advantage isn't speed, but
workflow. When you have achieved a high degree of focus
then it really sucks to jump back and forth between
files writing long paths or searching for them in
nested files trees. With is system, I'm one keystroke
away from any other file, wherever I am in Emacs. [2]

Earlier, I used registers, like this:

(set-register ?l (cons 'file "/sudo::/etc/rc.local"))

And then I setup a shortcut to `jump-to-register'
(`C-j' actually, short, and doesn't require you to move
you hands from typing positions). That was a good idea
but there aren't enough registers, which is why I
thought of the prefix solution. (The prefix way is also
mnemonic/intuitive as it can be made to mirror the tree
structure of a filesystem, so you get more
familiar/comfortable with that just by jumping between
files.)

There are also bookmarks, and many, many other attempts
to solve this file problem, which a very important
problem for programmers and all computer people. We all
think the approach of "small, modular files, use the
filesystem to express purpose and association as well
as to encapsulate" is the best. But do that all day
long, and moving between all those soon-to-be zillion
files is a real pest! So to jump between them in the
close-to-speed-of-thought must be solved somehow,
otherwise all that overhead typing paths and navigating
the filesystem will just make for crappy workflow,
frustration and loss of focus, which is (as said) much
more important than the time loss, which is important
in itself.

So the Emacs "pros" should really put their minds to
this problem even more as it is an annoyance to many
veterans as well as an obstacle to many newcomers.

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/dumps/w3m-tabs.png
[2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/global-keys.el

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> The multiple keys part is easy:
>
> (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list)

Well, it is not that easy. Look on the keyboard where
`C-x C-b' is and where F9 is. While I agree `C-x C-b'
isn't good (too long), it is better than F9 because the
function keys - as well as the arrow keys, the numeric
keypad, etc. - require you to move your hand(s) away
from typing position(s). They are difficult to hit so
you need to look down to hit them. Then you need to
reset with the same problem. I never use them. A short
keystroke is not always better that a long.

> Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often?
>
> For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance.  I've got the
> WM set to no title bar for emacs.  I've got emacs
> customized for no toolbar and no menubar.  So, all
> I've got in Emacs windows is text.

Yes, I do the same. The OP isn't all Emacs just
yet... you just wait :)

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Me too to all of the above.  Remove the extra fluff.
> Maximumize the amount of edit buffer for what I am
> editing.

This is even more important if you like me like a
projector with huge letters and not that many letters
per line. Then it is a matter of really making every
line count. Besides it is a principle of mine that only
a minimum information - the information that I need to
do what I want to do - should enter my eyes and
brain. But in this case, I think the OP considers his
tabs to be in that vital category. So regardless of
what we think of tabs for Emacs, we should help him
find a package to get him that. As for me, I don't know
of any tabs in the Emacs world except those I have
already mentioned, in w3m.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Dan Espen]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Dan Espen wrote:
>> The multiple keys part is easy:
>> (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list)
>> Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often?
>
> Since we are both using electric-buffer-list I know we are in the same
> group on that.  It is great.  :-)
>
> But as for binding to a function key to avoid C-x C-b being two keys I
> will respond that F9 isn't in the home row of keys.  On the standard
> IBM PC style keyboard one must move the hands from the home row and
> find and hit that single key.  I touch type but I would need to look
> to hit that one accurately.  That is a much higher finger workload
> than simply typing two control keys from the normal finger typing
> position that can be done by touch typing.

I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys) without looking.
Since they're in groups of 4 it's pretty easy.

Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even though I touch type,
but I do have this in my .emacs too:

;These replace the standard bindings with a better buffer list
(global-set-key "\C-x\C-b" 'electric-buffer-list) ;^x^b better buff list
(global-set-key "\C-xb"    'electric-buffer-list) ;^x b better buff list

(Just in case.)

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Besides it is a principle of mine that only a minimum information -
> the information that I need to do what I want to do - should enter
> my eyes and brain.

Yep.

> But in this case, I think the OP considers his tabs to be in that
> vital category. So regardless of what we think of tabs for Emacs, we
> should help him find a package to get him that. As for me, I don't
> know of any tabs in the Emacs world except those I have already
> mentioned, in w3m.

Oh I completely agree.  I was just adding my reasoning to the
discussion.  Thanks for keeping focused on the original issue.

In that spirit I am surprised that no one has mentioned the emacs
speedbar.  I am not using it and therefore I didn't mention it but
perhaps that would be the right mental model for the OP?

  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Speedbar.html

  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/speedbar/index.html

  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeedBar

  http://cedet.sourceforge.net/speedbar.shtml

Some screenshots:
  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SrSpeedbar

And that is all I know about it since I am not using it.

Bob

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys)
> without looking.  Since they're in groups of 4 it's
> pretty easy.
>
> Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even
> though I touch type

Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you -
why don't you have six keyboard - all in different
colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical
levels - on front, and one on each side?

While I love shortcuts, actually, my dream would be to
never use them but to have a complete 1-1
physical/hardware-functional/software interface. Can
you imagine how cool it would be to never, ever stumble
on a shortcut?

I can actually get that for all the modes that don't
require typing - w3m, Gnus (except for the message
mode, of course), the buffer menu just mentioned, and
so on. But whenever there is typing there must be
shortcuts as there are so few keys left, and, typing -
editing, point movements - this requires so many
shortcuts.

How do fighter pilots do it? Then it must be super-fast,
and no "fumbling" can ever be allowed? I remember a
flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18 Hornet. It took up
almost the entire keyboard. It was considered very
realistic (at the time) but I take it reality is even
more complex. Remember that fighter pilots also cannot
be allowed to "look down", just a us! Anyone knows how
they do it? They say programmers often take to flying
when they get rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the
accursed Apple world.)

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you -
> why don't you have six keyboard - all in different
> colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical
> levels - on front, and one on each side?

If anyone does this please post a photo! :-)

> While I love shortcuts, actually, my dream would be to
> never use them but to have a complete 1-1
> physical/hardware-functional/software interface. Can
> you imagine how cool it would be to never, ever stumble
> on a shortcut?

Yes.  But at some point the brain can become overloaded.  I have some
ham radios that have had feature creep to the point that they are no
longer possible to be operated without the manual open beside them.
That is bad.  Was it left function, right function, then action
button?  Or was it push and hold left function 1s until beep, then
action button?  Or right function hold 1s, left function, then action?
I have truly awful "computerized" radio like that.  Others with less
features are more usable because sometimes you don't have the manual
in front of you.

> How do fighter pilots do it? Then it must be super-fast,
> and no "fumbling" can ever be allowed?

Actually no.  I am a general aviation pilot (not a fighter pilot, I
fly taildragges) but the concept for fighters is HOTAS.  Hands On
Throttle-And-Stick.  Put the switches you need on either the throttle
or stick so they can be reached without removing hands from the flight
controls.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTAS

Mostly when you do need to manipulate a switch not on either throttle
or stick you keep one hand on the control stick, leave the throttle in
the friction lock to hold it in place, and use the throttle hand to
flip switches.  And especially with radios there is always a lot of
fumbling.

> I remember a flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18 Hornet. It took up
> almost the entire keyboard.

Because the keyboard is a general purpose interface for human text it
doesn't really make a good match to an airplane cockpit.  Meaning that
it will be more complicated because there is a mapping from one to
another.  The keys are binary.  Most flight controls are analog.  And
therefore all are a compromise.

Note that many modern airliners have a full keyboard in the cockpit.
It is useful for entering flight plans and other data specific
details.  It folds up out of the way when not in active use.  But in
that role it is dedicated again to the task and not mapped to flight
controls as in the games.

> It was considered very realistic (at the time) but I take it reality
> is even more complex.

More and less.  When you are centered in the cockpit you can turn your
head and look around and everything makes sense around you.  But in a
game display this is difficult to achieve.  Plus the real aircraft
includes feeling the movement in your seat which also gives you
clues.  Perhaps it is more like flying an RC aircraft.

> They say programmers often take to flying when they get
> rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the accursed Apple world.)

When I get rich I will let you know.  Until then flying is one of the
things keeping me poor.  But I wouldn't give up flying for money.  It
is the other way around.

Bob

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Dan Espen]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys)
>> without looking.  Since they're in groups of 4 it's
>> pretty easy.
>>
>> Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even
>> though I touch type
>
> Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you -
> why don't you have six keyboard - all in different
> colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical
> levels - on front, and one on each side?

Just one keyboard for 2 computers.  (I have a KVM.)

I have mechanical keys (blue cherry) and LED lit keys.
The office is dark and the letters on the keyboard glow blue.

(I like it.  Goes well with the XMAS lights I use for low level
lighting.)

I've got delete entire line (like hitting C-a C-k C-k) bound
to the big plus sign on the numeric pad.  I don't navigating over
there either.

I'm not really trying to set any speed records.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> I'm not really trying to set any speed records.

Yeah, me neither for the sake of records. But I always
look for speed and quality: I thought many years ago if
I had those two, I'd be hard to put down in all but all
situation and walks of life. Also, I don't think they
contradict as some people do. I think quantity and
quality are the same. The guy who throws the best
punches is the guy who throws 1000 punches every day...

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> If anyone does this please post a photo! :-)

I got the idea from this music video from the 90's, the
German Eurodisco band Sash. Of course, having the
keyboards hang in chains are optional...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEsMhxDVVOk

> Yes.  But at some point the brain can become
> overloaded.  I have some ham radios that have had
> feature creep to the point that they are no longer
> possible to be operated without the manual open
> beside them.  That is bad.  Was it left function,
> right function, then action button?  Or was it push
> and hold left function 1s until beep, then action
> button?  Or right function hold 1s, left function,
> then action?  I have truly awful "computerized" radio
> like that.  Others with less features are more usable
> because sometimes you don't have the manual in front
> of you.

Fatigue is of course a big source of such
"biomechanical" mistakes. At that point you should
probably have a break. At the same time if you have too
much material in your brain you might think fumbling
and stumbling is OK just so the thing gets done, then
the break will be all the more enjoyable as you can
feel good and let all that dissappear completely.

> Actually no.  I am a general aviation pilot (not a
> fighter pilot, I fly taildragges) but the concept for
> fighters is HOTAS.  Hands On Throttle-And-Stick.  Put
> the switches you need on either the throttle or stick
> so they can be reached without removing hands from
> the flight controls.
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTAS
>
> Mostly when you do need to manipulate a switch not on
> either throttle or stick you keep one hand on the
> control stick, leave the throttle in the friction
> lock to hold it in place, and use the throttle hand
> to flip switches.  And especially with radios there
> is always a lot of fumbling.

So is there something we text-editor users can learn
from the pilots?

>> I remember a flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18
>> Hornet. It took up almost the entire keyboard.
>
> Because the keyboard is a general purpose interface for
> human text it doesn't really make a good match to an
> airplane cockpit.  Meaning that it will be more
> complicated because there is a mapping from one to
> another.  The keys are binary.  Most flight controls
> are analog.

The stick and throttle are, I take it the movements are
recoded digitally at some point?

What about the data that are read by the pilots? Are
they typically analog or spelled out with letters and
digits? I think I would prefer analog, more smooth and
relaxed. In a text editor though I can't think of
anything that could be purposely expressed the "analog"
way?

> More and less.  When you are centered in the cockpit
> you can turn your head and look around and everything
> makes sense around you.  But in a game display this
> is difficult to achieve.  Plus the real aircraft
> includes feeling the movement in your seat which also
> gives you clues.  Perhaps it is more like flying an
> RC aircraft.

Interesting. This reminds my of an article I read in
the magazine "High Score". There was a Formula 1 game,
one of the first games for Windows 95, and for this
reason it got some attention. The game was nothing out
of the ordinary, I think. But anyway there was a
profession race car guy they had testing the game. He
said just like you the biggest difference was you get
zero information from your body. He said he didn't have
an advantage playing the game from being a professional
race car driver.

In another article in that magazine, but I think in
another issue, they did the same with a sailboat
simulator. They showed it to some Captain Haddock old
fart and asked if you could learn anything from it, and
he said absolutely not, you should do that in a real
boat. Well of course... problem is, kids don't sit
around boats all day as they do computers. If two kids
were to learn it I absolutely think the kid with the
experience from the simulator would have an advantage -
he would know the terminology, how to process the
instruments, he would have something to relate
(compare) to, and his brain would just have a head
start. Also, a simulator can run different
scenarios. Don't pilots train in simulators all the
time? Why shouldn't aspiring Haddocks do as well? All
said and done, nothing beats the real deal...

>> They say programmers often take to flying when they
>> get rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the accursed
>> Apple world.)
>
> When I get rich I will let you know.  Until then
> flying is one of the things keeping me poor.  But I
> wouldn't give up flying for money.  It is the other
> way around.

Configuring Emacs all they long and having the shell
tools and everything behave exactly as you like, and
then do the same to the place you are in while doing
it, tweaking everything, I think computing can be
physically and even more so mentally enjoyable - and it
is a huge difference from a busy office with crap
software and stressed out people running all over the
place - still, compared to what is instinctively and
immediately a joy for almost anyone who ever does it -
I'm not an aviator but to some degree I can imagine - I
don't think it will ever come to that... Mission
Impossible.

-- 
underground experts united

OT: User Interfaces (was: Feeling lost without tabs)

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > Yes.  But at some point the brain can become
> > overloaded.  I have some ham radios that have had
> > feature creep to the point that they are no longer
> > possible to be operated without the manual open
> > beside them.  That is bad.  Was it left function,
> > right function, then action button?  Or was it push
> > and hold left function 1s until beep, then action
> > button?  Or right function hold 1s, left function,
> > then action?  I have truly awful "computerized" radio
> > like that.  Others with less features are more usable
> > because sometimes you don't have the manual in front
> > of you.
> 
> Fatigue is of course a big source of such
> "biomechanical" mistakes. At that point you should
> probably have a break. At the same time if you have too
> much material in your brain you might think fumbling
> and stumbling is OK just so the thing gets done, then
> the break will be all the more enjoyable as you can
> feel good and let all that dissappear completely.

Taking a break is all well and good.  But if the interface was your
car and driving it caused that level of fatigue then it would be
counter productive.  Operating a vehicle shouldn't be so stressful as
to be dangerous.  For example we know that to stop you press on the
brake pedal.  Pressing the brake pedal stops the car.  This is easily
learned and doesn't cause fatigue.  And it needs to be easy.

If a childs ball bounces out into the street every driver should be
ready to step on the brake.  Because very frequently a child may soon
be chasing after that ball and running into the street after it.  Be
ready to stop suddenly!

Conversely in a bad user interface example if the brake pedal was
multi functioned and one needed to set the right mode of operation
that would be bad.  Let's say it needed a mode switch.  One mode
caused the pedal to accelerate and another caused it to brake.  And
worse it might not be obvious which is which.  That would be a very
bad thing.  It might require an open user manual to operate.  It would
be dangerous if you could not stop immediately if required.

The Emacs interface is close to this problem.  There is only a limited
number of keys for direct commands.  After that we have all of the C-x
key map.  Then the C-c key map for some modes.  And so forth.
Commands that we execute all of the time are easily remembered.  But
commands that we don't do very often are harder to remember.  But C-g
is always immediately available to interrupt the current action. :-)

> >   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTAS
> 
> So is there something we text-editor users can learn
> from the pilots?

In my mind, yes.  Keep the fingers on the home row of keys.  Make
commands easily executed while keeping the hands in the standard
typing position.  Needing to move the hands from the standard typing
position causes a higher operator workload.

> > Because the keyboard is a general purpose interface for
> > human text it doesn't really make a good match to an
> > airplane cockpit.  Meaning that it will be more
> > complicated because there is a mapping from one to
> > another.  The keys are binary.  Most flight controls
> > are analog.
> 
> The stick and throttle are, I take it the movements are
> recoded digitally at some point?

In the general aviation planes I fly the controls are connected to
steel cables connected to the flight control surfaces directly.  I
push and pull them directly.  It is always analog.

In today's fighters and most new airlines everything is computer
controlled.  Fly by wire.  You provide input and the computer drives
the flight controls.  It will be analog on both ends and digital in
between.

Sometimes this is good because the addition of the computer came make
things more efficient.  Sometimes this is bad because there is no
"feel" to the controls.  No feedback.  For example in Flight 447 crash
the two pilots gave opposite input and the computer averaged their
inputs together which is clearly undesirable.  The two pilots were
opposing each other and did not know it due to lack of feedback.

> What about the data that are read by the pilots? Are
> they typically analog or spelled out with letters and
> digits? I think I would prefer analog, more smooth and
> relaxed. In a text editor though I can't think of
> anything that could be purposely expressed the "analog"
> way?

The traditional instruments are analog.  Usually called "steam
gauges."  Most of the newer instruments are digital.  The analog steam
gauge gives you a pie-chart type of display.  The new digital gauges
with numbers give you a lot of data and require a different type of
learning to deal with what is what.  It is a hotly debated topic as to
which is better.

> Interesting. This reminds my of an article I read in
> the magazine "High Score". There was a Formula 1 game,
> one of the first games for Windows 95, and for this
> reason it got some attention. The game was nothing out
> of the ordinary, I think. But anyway there was a
> profession race car guy they had testing the game. He
> said just like you the biggest difference was you get
> zero information from your body. He said he didn't have
> an advantage playing the game from being a professional
> race car driver.

Exactly.

> In another article in that magazine, but I think in
> another issue, they did the same with a sailboat
> simulator. They showed it to some Captain Haddock old
> fart and asked if you could learn anything from it, and
> he said absolutely not, you should do that in a real
> boat.

Haha.  I both agree and disagree.  To a point you need to learn the
rules first.  Then you need to learn it for real.  The simulator
allows you to learn without causing expensive damage or possibility of
hurting anyone.  But you can reach the end of what you can learn from
the simulator and then you need to move on.

> Well of course... problem is, kids don't sit
> around boats all day as they do computers. If two kids
> were to learn it I absolutely think the kid with the
> experience from the simulator would have an advantage -
> he would know the terminology, how to process the
> instruments, he would have something to relate
> (compare) to, and his brain would just have a head

Simulators are great procedural trainers.  A lot of what is done is
for repetitive learning.  Do the tasks that you need to do again and
again and again so that they become reflex.  Like practicing a musical
score on an instrument.  Practice, practice, practice makes perfect.

For example the new moving map gps systems are quite complex.  The
Garmin G1000 has 101 control inputs!  Burning aviation fuel is
expensive.  It is much better to sit on the ground in a simulator and
learn how to drive the electronics where it is free and you can always
step out and take a break than it is to do so while you are flying and
needing to concentrate on other things like not running into other
airplanes or the ground.

I see people who have a lot of experience flying flight simulators.
They are actually quite good flying under instrument conditions.  For
getting their instrument rating they are definitely ahead.  But the
sim isn't good at recreating a visual approach and landing.  Even on
an instrument approach the GA pilot always lands visually.  (Only the
big guys have zero-zero (visibility-ceiling) landing capability.)  The
sim also isn't good at recreating a crosswind landing environment.
Trying to land a small airplane is just so different that they are
starting from the same starting place as someone who has never flown a
simulator.  Even the new professional sims have enough delay to them
that I don't think they are good enough yet.

> start. Also, a simulator can run different
> scenarios. Don't pilots train in simulators all the
> time? Why shouldn't aspiring Haddocks do as well? All
> said and done, nothing beats the real deal...

Commercial airline pilots are always doing recurrent training.  Much
of that is in really good simulators.  An airline pilot might take a
checkride in a simulator.  It is that real there.  The first time they
fly for real they will have a full load of passengers.  But they will
also have an experienced captain pilot next to them to ensure that
things go safely.  It is the responsibility of the senior captain to
finish the training that was begun in the sim.

General aviation pilots do not have a senior captain.  We only rarely
fly in sims.  We have flight instructors that we fly with to teach and
polish.  Or we might fly with other pilots.  It is only required that
I have three takeoffs and landings in the last 90 days to carry
passengers.  Longer than that and we are required to fly solo and
practice to get re-currant.  And I need a flight review every two
years.  Most pilots I know fly often and do their best to keep their
skills sharp.  There is a saying, "A good pilot is always learning."

> Configuring Emacs all they long and having the shell
> tools and everything behave exactly as you like, and
> then do the same to the place you are in while doing
> it, tweaking everything, I think computing can be
> physically and even more so mentally enjoyable - and it
> is a huge difference from a busy office with crap
> software and stressed out people running all over the
> place - still, compared to what is instinctively and
> immediately a joy for almost anyone who ever does it -
> I'm not an aviator but to some degree I can imagine - I
> don't think it will ever come to that... Mission
> Impossible.

Both computers and flying is fun.  But they are different types of fun.

This is getting really off topic so this will probably be my last
comment on this but...  I just got back from the EAA AirVenture Fly-In
in Oshkosh.  It is aviation heaven.  Search for it if you are
interested.  10,000-15,000 airplanes fly in for the convention.  I
flew in with my taildragger.  Then among other things I volunteered
and helped to park arrivals.  An aweome experience!  It is impossible
to describe to the non-enthusiast.  Fun!  :-)

Bob

Re: OT: User Interfaces (was: Feeling lost without tabs)

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> It is impossible to describe to the non-enthusiast.
> Fun! :-)

Thank you for that post. I don't know if it was that
off topic. I recommend it to anyone on this list who
hasn't read it.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[swe20144]

It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
I've finally gotten used to C-x b
Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.

I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse
to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people.
How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
yet?

I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way)

If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like
to see.
Basically
   C-x b   to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion
               Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions

Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance?
(the repo hasn't been updated since 2012)

Sam









On Saturday, July 19, 2014 at 6:47:47 PM UTC-7, Sampath Weerasinghe wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs.
> 
> I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show
> tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things,
> but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that
> remind me which project I was last working on.
> 
> I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also
> takes a a lot of screen real estate.
> 
> I'm wondering how others overcame this.
> 
> -Sam

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Dan Espen]

swe20144@gmail.com writes:

> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
> I've finally gotten used to C-x b
> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.
>
> I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse
> to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people.
> How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
> yet?
>
> I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way)
>
> If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like
> to see.
> Basically
>    C-x b   to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion
>                Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions
>
> Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance?
> (the repo hasn't been updated since 2012)

Not clear to me what your question is.
But if you like the default buffer list,
I think you'll like electric-buffer-list more:

http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ElectricBufferList

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Yuri Khan]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:07 PM,  <swe20144@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
> I've finally gotten used to C-x b
> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.
[…]
> Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
> yet?

If you are not particularly attached to Chrome, then maybe look at
Conkeror (not to be confused with Konqueror).

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Filipp Gunbin]

On 03/11/2015 06:07 -0800, swe20144@gmail.com wrote:

> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
> I've finally gotten used to C-x b

When I started using Emacs I didn't know that I can use isearch in
minibuffer.  When I found that possibility, things became simpler.  I
frequently think that things like that probably should be mentioned in
manual / tutorial somewhere near the beginning...

> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.
>
> I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse
> to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people.
> How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
> yet?

Maybe there's a chance to change your workflow?  I wonder what may
require more than 5 tabs at the same moment.

I remember trying Conkeror browser (http://conkeror.org) and Firefox
plugins for Emacs keys, it seemed unnatural for me.  So I switched to
emacs-w3m for all text pages (manuals, references - work materials
mostly).  I even switched off tabs in emacs-w3m for the browser
"windows" to act like normal Emacs buffers, which they are (but I use
`w3m-select-buffer' a lot).

Filipp

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Dirk-Jan C. Binnema]

On Tuesday Nov 03 2015, Yuri Khan wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:07 PM,  <swe20144@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
>> I've finally gotten used to C-x b
>> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.
> […]
>> Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
>> yet?
>
> If you are not particularly attached to Chrome, then maybe look at
> Conkeror (not to be confused with Konqueror).

Conkeror is nice, but can be a bit difficult to combine with other
Firefox extensions.

However, there is an extension "Keysnail" for Firefox which gives you a
regular Firefox with some emacs-like behaviors added to that (including
the "C-x b" binding).

Keysnail has its own plugins, and e.g. the "HoK" one is quite nice,
giving you on-screen shortcuts for access links through your keyboard,
just like Conkeror (and ace-jump-mode, eno etc. in emacs) do.

https://github.com/mooz/keysnail/wiki

Cheers,
Dirk.

-- 
Dirk-Jan C. Binnema                  Helsinki, Finland
e:djcb@djcbsoftware.nl           w:www.djcbsoftware.nl
pgp: D09C E664 897D 7D39 5047 A178 E96A C7A1 017D DA3C

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Aziz Yemloul]

swe20144@gmail.com writes:

> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
> I've finally gotten used to C-x b
> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.

Conkeror is awesome, it's my default web browser. M-n and M-p to go to
next and previous tab like i do in tabbar-mode in emacs and
w3m tabs inside emacs. it have the C-x b key-binding to switch to
desired tab, C-x f to find a new url in new buffer.

hope you'll try it

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Charles Philip Chan]

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swe20144@gmail.com writes:

> I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one
> attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way)
>
> If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking
> Emacsome to add the features I like to see.  Basically C-x b to switch
> buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion Inside it, C-n and C-p to
> browse the suggestions

Don't know about Chrome, but for Firefox, one can configure keysnail:

      https://github.com/mooz/keysnail/wiki

to do this.

Charles

-- 
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb.  Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)

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editing, searching minibuffer content [was: Feeling lost without tabs]

[Drew Adams]

> When I started using Emacs I didn't know that I can use isearch in
> minibuffer.  When I found that possibility, things became simpler.  I
> frequently think that things like that probably should be mentioned in
> manual / tutorial somewhere near the beginning...

Yes.  It is not as well known as it could be that you can generally
edit the contents of the minibuffer.  And that includes Isearch.

There are only a few keys that have other than their usual meanings
in the minibuffer keymaps.

Unfortunately some of those few keys are commonly used for editing,
and some of them are even normally self-inserting.  They could be
(and except for `RET' _should_ be, IMO) just self-inserting in the
minibuffer also: `?', `SPC', `C-j' (newline).

(After a few decades Emacs finally allowed `SPC' to self-insert,
but only for file-name completion.)

Add to this the fact that some people use Ido or similar, which
reduces normal editing of minibuffer content even further, and
it is little wonder that many users do not realize that the
minibuffer is an editable buffer - a place where you can edit
text in many of the usual ways.

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Michael Heerdegen]

"Dirk-Jan C. Binnema" <djcb@djcbsoftware.nl> writes:

> However, there is an extension "Keysnail" for Firefox which gives you a
> regular Firefox with some emacs-like behaviors added to that (including
> the "C-x b" binding).

+1 for Keysnail, I'm a user too.  But I don't have such a command here.
What command is bound to C-x b in your setup?


Thanks,

Michael.

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Charles Philip Chan]

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Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> +1 for Keysnail, I'm a user too.  But I don't have such a command
> here.  What command is bound to C-x b in your setup?

You need the "Tanything" plugin for Keysnail. The default keybinding is
"a".

Charles

-- 
"Whip me.  Beat me.  Make me maintain AIX."
(By Stephan Zielinski)

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Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Bob Proulx]

swe20144@gmail.com wrote:
> ... Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a
> lot of time on: my web browser.
> 
> I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse
> to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people.
> How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
> yet?

The best Chrome/Chromium plugin for me is the Vimium plugin.  It is
designed to bring vim keys to the web browser.  But it is
configurable.  And some Emacs keys have always been available in vi
too and are therefore available immediately in Chromium with Vimium.
Check it out as you might like it.

Unfortunately Chrome's architecture means that plugins cannot work
outside of "external" pages.  Therefore nothing can be perfect as a
plugin.  But it is better than not having it there.

Also I customize my X Window System environment and set:

  gtk-key-theme-name = "Emacs" 

With that in my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 file everything that uses GTK widgets
will use Emacs key bindings by default.  That means C-l to get to the
URL location bar and then C-b, C-f, and so forth all work as in Emacs
in Firefox, Chrome, other.  "The way it should be." :-)

Bob

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Michael Heerdegen]

Charles Philip Chan <cpchan@bell.net> writes:

> You need the "Tanything" plugin for Keysnail. The default keybinding
> is "a".

Great, thanks.

For the record: use this to make it work globally with C-x b:

  key.setGlobalKey(['C-x', 'b'], function (ev, arg) {
      ext.exec("tanything", arg);
  }, "View all tabs", true);


Regards,

Michael.

Re: Feeling lost without tabs

[Kendall Shaw]

Doubly different than what you asked for, but vimperator in the "a 
script has become unresponsive" browser, is what I use. g0 goes to first 
tab. g$ goes to last. t creates a new tab.

Kendall

On 11/03/2015 06:07 AM, swe20144@gmail.com wrote:
>
> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode,
> I've finally gotten used to C-x b
> Surprisingly, I like it.  Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser.
>
> I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse
> to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people.
> How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about
> yet?
>
> I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way)
>
> If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like
> to see.
> Basically
>     C-x b   to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion
>                 Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions
>
> Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance?
> (the repo hasn't been updated since 2012)
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 at 6:47:47 PM UTC-7, Sampath Weerasinghe wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs.
>>
>> I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show
>> tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things,
>> but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that
>> remind me which project I was last working on.
>>
>> I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also
>> takes a a lot of screen real estate.
>>
>> I'm wondering how others overcame this.
>>
>> -Sam
>