From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jari Aalto Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:52:33 +0200 Organization: Private Message-ID: <3aq93li6.fsf@blue.sea.net> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <874pavg45t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206784394 8557 80.91.229.12 (29 Mar 2008 09:53:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:53:14 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 29 10:53:44 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JfXks-00041O-Jn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:53:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JfXkH-0006Uz-5F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:53:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JfXkD-0006TC-AP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:53:01 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JfXkC-0006Sa-LX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:53:00 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JfXkC-0006SX-IN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:53:00 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JfXkB-0000HT-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:53:00 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JfXk5-0000ta-Iz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:52:53 +0000 Original-Received: from a91-155-187-119.elisa-laajakaista.fi ([91.155.187.119]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:52:53 +0000 Original-Received: from jari.aalto by a91-155-187-119.elisa-laajakaista.fi with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:52:53 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 21 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: a91-155-187-119.elisa-laajakaista.fi User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:UZ1uF0Id3HRhCPM0MN9JGvv55DM= X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93769 Archived-At: * Tue 2008-03-25 Stephen J. Turnbull gmane.emacs.devel * Message-Id: 874pavg45t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp > The only reason not to make Windows/Mac-like behavior the default that > makes sense to me is if we think that traditional Emacs behavior is > *clearly* superior for *most* beginners, enough to make it worth a > short period of confusion and annoyance while they learn to use the > Emacs behaviors. The principle "make them learn" isn't a productive starting point. This old thinking a is sure way to degrade Emacs to a niche for only the very enduring people. As Paul said, we should nor neglect to consider new users as a valuable new resource. They should be approached with care and with listening ear. If they don't get hooked, they will not (and don't want to) spend time in learning. This is reality today; things might have been a little different 10-20 years ago in C/C++ era. We're no longer there. Jari