From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:24:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3a96aa32-0f21-4ede-97a0-f57b0bc21661@default> References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> <87eh4hkq6c.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389306270 4604 80.91.229.3 (9 Jan 2014 22:24:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:24:30 +0000 (UTC) To: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 09 23:24:34 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1O1g-0005MA-Nw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:24:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54460 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1O1g-0001jt-AK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:24:32 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54492) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1O1U-0001aW-HL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:24:29 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1O1L-0005jb-VQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:24:20 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:22190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1O1L-0005jR-Oa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 17:24:11 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s09MO9o5008281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:24:10 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s09MO9eN029307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:24:09 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s09MO9Wj028678; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:24:09 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167985 Archived-At: > Arbitrary roadblocks can be removed, though. I said as much: Gratuitous differences in terminology for identical things are something else. But (a) that is rare (the Emacs thingies are not really the same), and (b) even then it is not important to toe the line. Especially if the things are identical, it is easy to learn new terms for them. IOW, the truly arbitrary differences are rare and not a problem. Learning Emacs is hard, but not because of them. =20 > For example, yank is not a superior term to paste, so paste could be > used instead. One unnecessary difference less. And it is only one > example, there are others. >=20 > Emacs provides enough material to learn without these arbitrary > (legacy) differences, so these should be eliminated where possible. To repeat (you might want to read the thread): Examples of exceptional things that are identical in Emacs, or nearly so, are "cut" and "paste" operations. And as others have already said, it is enough to point out the Emacs terminology and the correspondences (when there are close correspondences and not just faux amis) - which we already do, AFAIK. We already make clear in the menus and doc that "yank" means something very similar to "paste". And (to repeat, again) far more importantly: this is NOT a point of "confusion" for newbies. Initial ignorance, yes. But the slightest contact with the Emacs docs or google or a quick Q & A has always been enough to let newbies know what "yank" means. I have never seen anyone become "confused" after they were introduced to the term "yank". This is simply a non-problem. But it gets rehashed here every so often. NOT because newbies say they are confused and don't get it. But only because some well meaning soles here get the bright idea that this must be confusing to new arrivals and that if this important obstacle were removed then Emacs would have a brighter future. This essentially short-sells newbies, and touches on demagogy. _You_ learned "yank". Did you stay up at night in turmoil, trying to grasp its meaning? No. Don't you think that other newbies are just as bright as you were? Please, think about it.