From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:14:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1325805318 30690 80.91.229.12 (5 Jan 2012 23:15:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:15:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 06 00:15:14 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWe-0006wW-N7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:15:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58954 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWe-0005F2-4u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51059) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWa-0005ES-PK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:09 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWZ-0008VN-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:08 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:41679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwWZ-0008V8-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:15:07 -0500 Original-Received: by qcsd17 with SMTP id d17so715058qcs.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=Houv83IGLI+Z7Xm7jiVvrQSWIutE9iCZqoEk3dl+JYA=; b=edGcRv2mv6MV434pby2A4roO8zyS2TOwIuUC1E68Y8a7hV14522LTODABiUN9QfNOJ T8sXv9maNZ04NngvSqec1q4VKA0vLsiDCPf8HbJHf7sAkx9HHUy7dtwICl6QtU2GWN5q ieGOO/OwxIOKfTXD4/UlocRNzjBQ26QW2IVLA= Original-Received: by 10.229.76.202 with SMTP id d10mr1481931qck.21.1325805306810; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.0.0.120] ([12.198.236.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dk2sm49780497qab.12.2012.01.05.15.15.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:15:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.216.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147365 Archived-At: On Jan 5, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 17:19, chad wrote: >=20 >> Out of curiosity, do you assemble the pieces of your operating system = by hand >=20 > No, because I'm not offered that alternative in the system I use. >=20 >> and manually check for updates yourself? >=20 > I disable automatic checking and do manual checks every now and then, = yes. When you do manual checks, do you run a program that checks for updates, = downloads them, and then installs them; or do you load up a web browser, = visit some project pages from memory/bookmarks/etc, and start = downloading and unpacking zip files? I certainly don't think that everyone should be *required* to run an = automatic critical-update-checker, but we're not talking about that - = we're talking about the default setting. That might involve you being = asked a question once ever (something that's been built into emacs at = least since I started using in in the 18.43 days), or adding a tiny bit = of elisp to your set-up before being asked. >> Do you think that most GNU/Linux distributions are too much like = `software as a service' for the same reasons? >=20 > Certainly I don't like much the way GNU/Linux distributions are going. Ok, I sympathize (I tend to disable auto-updaters on windows systems = myself), but wasn't the question. I assume that you mention SoaS because = you think that such systems are opposed to the FSF's and/or GNU = project's goals, not just because you don't like them. You asked, ``if your vote counts'', and - to me, at least - your vote = definitely counts. I'm trying to understand your reasoning for = objecting to a default setting that would notify the user about critical = issues. Either I'm not understanding what you're saying, or you're = saying that the default users shouldn't have a feature that many (I'd = say `vast majority', but `many' is enough) because it might cause you to = have to type `n' a few times, and that doesn't match what I expect from = seeing your efforts on emacs-devel. >> If you believe that the default user is opposed to this, I'll suggest = that you might not have noticed them all voting with their feet in favor = of this at least a decade ago. This isn't even the old `Windows = Majority', even - I can't think of a computing system today that meets = the criteria ``might run Emacs 24.2'' and ``does NOT somehow check the = network for critical updates in the default installation''. >=20 > There are plenty of applications, many of them quite new, with no = automatic checking and/or upgrading. I don't want to start a flame-war, but I really don't think this = statement is true of user software. Basically everything not = hand-hacked on modern GNU/Linux, Mac OS X, or Windows system has an = automatic checking (or checking and upgrading) system in place, built in = to the application (web browsers, office suites, document/imaging = systems, and games, for example) or the operating system. To my = knowledge, emacs is the *only* software I use under windows that doesn't = do this, but I don't use windows very often, and mostly just for playing = certain computer games. Can you suggest a few `user' applications that = don't? Perhaps this is a matter of nomenclature, but in my opinion, if the = operating system's default-run package manager performs such a function, = I believe that it counts. Is that's the distinction you're drawing? *Chad