From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 23:14:13 +0000 Message-ID: <3E7CF23D-CE62-4581-80D6-E6266CEE4DF5@traductaire-libre.org> References: <8A22A273-11F5-449C-A2A4-2E8C68CCF1FE@traductaire-libre.org> <83ttnvzwlw.fsf@gnu.org> <5D3D13BC-E621-4C40-88D7-3E5805F631AB@traductaire-libre.org> <83sf3fzvk4.fsf@gnu.org> <835y0azhvo.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmsqy14p.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19077"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 04 07:00:50 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rLGme-0004mQ-NH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 07:00:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLGlr-0003Vj-P9; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 00:59:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLARf-0002gN-GA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 18:14:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-4323.proton.ch ([185.70.43.23]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLARc-0007VE-KJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 18:14:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=traductaire-libre.org; s=protonmail; t=1704323675; x=1704582875; bh=GNWNdmhjC10o0bXiRZcSswjHiqt6lMB0ZNlyS0MLBpM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=JVYZYb0WDuEApE8y3FGrpWK9LUvReO8GUumwLAeK8PLALeMUdd3E82jLQUeIqdLuq 01KvIpfmgeC63O226Yj5V9X6zpMeNlOUclOlNo0lCrPLWMJU7lwz6BlGgTrfi/lDOb iv+JhqlECPWNOAhuPsmgM3v/OZ2FD4oazOuvioFhFBuRWOAlHLFSW1Aj3hpEdAU7Xt v6s88xu8tIGVrkwgB/NS6JCvARfLbWD2E85INdZwWYWazVMVZq/uBUiM5JJb4ck4ZC WsJpNHoz9dN0vwVWXJQjWfLwwcjpmy1Kc/sLvIOK0c7Cvs3qwPZVSvwNFNhswac3Qb U/wyEYzEWisTg== In-Reply-To: <83wmsqy14p.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 92162971:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.23; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org; helo=mail-4323.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 00:59:57 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314520 Archived-At: > On Jan 3, 2024, at 22:53, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 > If context is important when translating technical documentation (and > it is IME), then any change in a paragraph will in many cases affect > more than the sentence corresponding to the one modified in English. >=20 > Moreover, a good translation of a paragraph will in many cases produce > a translated paragraph without 1:1 correspondence between sentences. > So changes in the original will need to consider much more than a > single sentence anyway. I=E2=80=99m not sure this is the place to discuss translation theory and as= a=20 practitioner who pays my bills mostly with translation I can say with=20 confidence that over the millions of words I=E2=80=99ve translated in more = than=20 20 years (including published translations), there are only few cases=20 where I needed to fundamentally alter the structure of a paragraph. Working both from Japanese and English to French on contracts varying=20 for poetry to electronic circuitry, I think my experience is wide=20 enough that I can assert this: in a time of dehumanization of whatever=20 technology touches, it=E2=80=99s OK for translators to say that a good=20 translation often requires changing a lot of things. In practice,=20 though, paragraph structure is rarely where change happens. Simply=20 because it is easier to make a good translation by respecting paragraph=20 structure. Now experience may vary, and different language pairs may=20 require different arrangements. >> I=E2=80=99m not sure I understand what kind of marks you envision. Parag= raphs >> are already marked by surrounding empty lines. >=20 > I mean, for example, give each paragraph a number, like so: Ok, so the markers are IDs. > @node Display Margins > @subsection Displaying in the Margins > @cindex display margins > @cindex margins, display As long as the above strings are to be translated, they need an ID too. > @c para 1234 >=20 > @c para 1235 >=20 > @c para 1236 Is the numbering automatic? What if you add paragraphs in the middle, like Vincent did? Will the=20 author have to check the IDs and add a number that=E2=80=99s not used alrea= dy? There are plenty of issues with static IDing parts of a document. Here is the way po4a "transforms" the paragraphs that you used as an exampl= e: #. type: Plain text #: /Users/suzume/Documents/Repositories/Projet OmegaT de Documentation Emac= s - #: Sources/doc/lispref/display.texi:5613 msgid "" "A buffer can have blank areas called @dfn{display margins} on the left and= " "on the right. Ordinary text never appears in these areas, but you can put= " "things into the display margins using the @code{display} property. There = is " "currently no way to make text or images in the margin mouse-sensitive." msgstr "" #. type: Plain text #: /Users/suzume/Documents/Repositories/Projet OmegaT de Documentation Emac= s - #: Sources/doc/lispref/display.texi:5619 msgid "" "The way to display something in the margins is to specify it in a margin " "display specification in the @code{display} property of some text. This i= s " "a replacing display specification, meaning that the text you put it on doe= s " "not get displayed; the margin display appears, but that text does not." msgstr "" #. type: Plain text #: /Users/suzume/Documents/Repositories/Projet OmegaT de Documentation Emac= s - #: Sources/doc/lispref/display.texi:5625 msgid "" "A margin display specification looks like @code{((margin right-margin) " "@var{spec})} or @code{((margin left-margin) @var{spec})}. Here, @var{spec= } " "is another display specification that says what to display in the margin. = " "Typically it is a string of text to display, or an image descriptor." msgstr "" The ID is the paragraph. Which makes sense, because translators can=20 know that a paragraph has not been translated because its ID is not=20 associated with contents. > When paragraph #1234 in the English original was modified, translators > will know that they need to update the translation of the > corresponding paragraph(s) (could be more than one) in their > translations, and nothing else. It should be easy to analyze the > diffs, look for the "@c para NNNN" marks, and present the translator > with the corresponding paragraph(s) from the translation. I think po-mode already does that and all the "out of emacs" tools do=20 too. --=20 Jean-Christophe Helary @jchelary@emacs.ch https://traductaire-libre.org https://mac4translators.blogspot.com https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/