From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:05:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAADE5F87844453B4BF62D81A8C5DEB@us.oracle.com> References: <20100318185435.GB1522@muc.de><20100319092300.GA1580@muc.de> <87iq8ssarm.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269025808 19636 80.91.229.12 (19 Mar 2010 19:10:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:10:08 +0000 (UTC) To: "'David Kastrup'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 19 20:10:04 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nsha7-0005k1-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:10:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35928 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsha7-0001N3-45 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:10:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NshZ4-0000Fw-Vj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:08:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48327 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NshZ3-0000D6-1U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:08:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NshYz-0008Tu-Gl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:08:56 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:24272) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NshYz-0008TZ-BZ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:08:53 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o2JJ8pJj023631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:08:52 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o2JIiAmn032478; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:05:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 96122851269025533; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:05:33 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.179.75) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:05:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87iq8ssarm.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Thread-Index: AcrHZ+t+AQtjqa85Q4GgkoU8ht48vAAIfmkA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4BA3CB05.00F6:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122307 Archived-At: > So can we please return to the discussion how > delete-selection-mode can be made to better fit with > Emacs' handling of the mark? That is not the question. That was not the question raised by Juri for this thread. Nor is the question for this thread whether we should disable t-m-mode as the default (your proposal) or any of the other garden paths you've wanted to send us down. The question Juri raised is a simple one: Given that many new users are in fact looking for d-s-mode (without knowing it), should we simply enable d-s-mode by default? Put affirmatively, it is a proposal. In Juri's own words (yes, it's worth rereading them): > I agree with Richard that the primary concern is doing what is useful > for newcomers. One of the most frequent questions they ask > is how to do what most other editors do - to replace selected > text with a typed character or with yanked text, and to delete > the region by typing without copying it to the kill-ring. > > What they are asking for is delete-selection-mode, > but they can't find it in the documentation because > the feature name says nothing to beginners, and > they expect to take this functionality for granted. > Some recent examples of such problems:... > > Is that reason enough to enable delete-selection-mode by default? Note: He makes the claim that this problem for newcomers is one of the most frequent they have trouble with. That's the "Whereas" or "Given" part of the proposal - you are free to disagree that this is a fact. And he jumps from the purported problem of discovering d-s-mode to a proposal to make it the default. You've made your vote clear against Juri's proposal. Now let's move on to getting more votes for/against and hopefully taking a user poll. And if people want more time to experiment with d-s-mode, as Richard suggests, that's a good idea too. But d-s-mode, as it is, deserves a decision about its becoming the default. That's the proposal this thread is about. (Personally, I'm OK with leaving the default as it is, though I think it would help more people if we implemented Juri's proposal.) But let's not divert this thread into either "Let's disable t-m-mode" or "How can we modify d-s-mode 'to better fit with Emacs's handling of the mark'?". Start another thread or two for such things, if you like. I'll gladly answer you there that d-s-mode itself does not need to be so modified, but you are welcome to come up with a new mode that provides any chimera or glorious solution you like. Please do not try to use the proposal of this thread, which is to enable d-s-mode by default, as cover for trying to modify d-s-mode. It's OK for us not to use d-s-mode by default. It's not OK to hijack the thread about that proposal. And IMO it's not OK to mess up d-s-mode.