From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:25:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3BA42BAC-B6D2-4531-BDC2-D8037E7038F7@traductaire-libre.org> References: <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5piu1y3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5250"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , =?utf-8?Q?Vincent_Bela=C3=AFche?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 06 13:56:47 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6EI-000195-SG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 13:56:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6Dn-0004IO-Pj; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 07:56:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM5kh-00060x-MQ; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 07:26:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-4323.proton.ch ([185.70.43.23]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM5kf-0002Wg-Cz; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 07:26:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=traductaire-libre.org; s=protonmail; t=1704543965; x=1704803165; bh=TGpaLvXV5TZxyEW+JSGr22MDVS0DdEsZ6rRcR8anDbw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=aife2N3Meg+xpG/G8jHU5pvHFRgoctx/4eWs9emgvE92sS/UfOH34YZkvcxNnwsge BBxyKLlXy57jzVhMhPWAwjmhvjoqIhmo6yCPoN291I46rpiJo+xFPLFLYbzVFmwEzv 4BIY34mpjEEOr2ROr20ygqEpQ5j+yT6JX1sPur7mLb0Zle8cSVAYOgn/Yoot1u9hpx +QEMHu5Mqf8KkvuO1mVZBXt0Ao8xfUChaVEUDvp8h1kliNv6+Bz/Xl/InT8P/UyQUj gcSHMX5AmjO5Ee5np89Q88lP8Cfc++DfuCmNFgQ/PVoiqCGg8DcdKyFSxuE2MG6BOT W4vpplhc3qm8A== In-Reply-To: <83a5piu1y3.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 92162971:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.23; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org; helo=mail-4323.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 07:56:12 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314615 gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3374 Archived-At: > On Jan 6, 2024, at 20:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> 1. I read a manual in English, there is a link with a node in English, >> it directs to the other English manual. >>=20 >> It=E2=80=99s the expected behaviour. >>=20 >> 2. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in English, >> it directs to the other English manual. >>=20 >> If the other manual exists in French, it is not the proper behaviour. I forgot. If I understand texinfo properly, if the manual name is=20 translated (and if the manual is translated) it is enough that the node=20 name is the same as in the target manual, so either both untranslated,=20 or both translated. So here, the node name only being left in English=20 is not so relevant. What matters most is whether the manual name is=20 translated or not. Am I correct? >> 3. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in French, it >> directs to the other French manual. >>=20 >> If the other manual exists in French, it is the proper behaviour. >>=20 >> If it does not, we should have an error message that informs the reader >> that the manual is not translated. >=20 > I think case 3 should fall back to the English manual instead of > erroring out. Having a manual without translation to an arbitrary > language will be the usual case for quite some time, so an error > message sounds like a harsh punishment to me. Sure, but the situation where that would happen is indeed when there=20 are too few translated manuals to create a =E2=80=9Cmonolingual ecosystem= =E2=80=9D=20 where manuals all link to each other. Supposedly, the user has installed the manual independently and knows=20 that there will be limitations. Just like all web sites have default 404=20 pages and some have redirection, the error does not have to read like=20 a punishment. And that can be a first solution before something more elaborate is=20 implemented. But indeed, that depends on how the TexInfo project wants=20 to solve the issue. Regarding the translation process, it seems like there are 2 steps here. - The first is the translator who is conscious of the external nodes=20 limitations and keeps all the external nodes in English. - The second is preparing the ground to link to her translation by=20 modifying external nodes in manuals that direct to it. Little by little, the discrepancy will disappear and the translated=20 manuals are all properly linked to each other. Btw, does your comment indicate that you are currently not strongly=20 opposed to translating the node names?