From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Adrian Robert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:10:36 +0545 Message-ID: <38FE7C75-06D5-4680-A7EB-0D8F4F810C95@gmail.com> References: <2047928B-CCE1-4A20-9280-B671282A819F@Freenet.DE> <1B5766A7-D82A-4E71-807B-532A2DA38E2E@gmail.com> Reply-To: Adrian Robert , 1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1238993053 30764 80.91.229.12 (6 Apr 2009 04:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 04:44:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 1993@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, Peter Dyballa To: David Reitter Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 06 06:45:31 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LqgiA-0005uu-OG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:45:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54121 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lqggm-0005pQ-8D for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:44:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Lqggg-0005om-AD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:43:58 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LqggZ-0005lh-AV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:43:55 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54848 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LqggZ-0005lN-0H for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:43:51 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:53248) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LqggY-0001Jn-ES for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:43:50 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n364hmUO023449; Sun, 5 Apr 2009 21:43:48 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n364U3si019707; Sun, 5 Apr 2009 21:30:03 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: Adrian Robert Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs , owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 04:30:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1993 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs,ns X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 1993-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1993.123899187618239 (code B ref 1993); Mon, 06 Apr 2009 04:30:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1993) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Apr 2009 04:24:36 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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(gprs-prx.spicenepal.com [116.68.208.84]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9sm58100tid.13.2009.04.05.21.24.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 05 Apr 2009 21:24:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1B5766A7-D82A-4E71-807B-532A2DA38E2E@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 00:43:55 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:26931 Archived-At: On Apr 4, 2009, at 9:45 PM, David Reitter wrote: >> >> I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be >> command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key >> (additional to esc+) if he/she desires. > > Well, that would be another alternative - maybe a good one. It's > my second-preferred variant. > > The reason why I support Command=Meta for Emacs 23 is experience > from working with Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs users. It seems to me > that there is a division between Emacs traditionalists, who would > like an Emacs with maximum compatibility across platforms. These > people don't need/want Mac keybindings. On the other end, you find > people with the need for cross-application integration. > Unsurprisingly, that's the typical Aquamacs user, while the > traditionalists compile Emacs from scratch or use a distribution > like Carbon Emacs Package. Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the same role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones? Can we follow Emacs on W32 in that case? IMHO Command is too heavily used on the Mac to simply throw under the bus by default -- the very user who will like emacs or uses it on other platforms is exactly the one already using cmd-shortcuts in other apps on the Mac. Further, "traditionalists" are most prepared to get their hands dirty and set up a command=meta mapping if they want it. Whereas a less savvy, single-platform user coming to Emacs.app from Text Edit, XCode, etc. will be most at home with command=super and alt=alt. As they learn emacs more, they can make their own decision about which key to give up for meta if they dislike esc+. In any case the information about these key settings should be easily accessible to users and the method of changing them should be easy. This could be done with a customization buffer hyperlinked from either the splash screen or a help menu item. This could be reconciled with the desire to keep the interface uniform across all platforms by allowing a sentence on splash or a single menu item under Help for platform-specific information. -Adrian