bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Drew Adams]

The fonts used (on MS Windows, at least) by default, for Info, are
these:

* For text in general:

  uniscribe:-outline-Courier
  New-normal-normal-normal-mono-17-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x52)

* For text enclosed in ‘...’:

   gdi:-outline-Courier-normal-normal-normal-mono-17-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1
   (#x65)

The latter comes from the default value of face `Info-quoted', which
specifies only the family (as courier).

Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They are
not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
same.  What's the point of this choice?


In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2016-09-17 built on LAPHROAIG
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 'configure --without-dbus --without-compress-install CFLAGS=-static'

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> 
> Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They are
> not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
> same.  What's the point of this choice?

The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Drew Adams]

> > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They are
> > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
> > same.  What's the point of this choice?
> 
> The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.

I don't disagree with that point.

What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
the other?  That's the question.  Doesn't seem like a great choice.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They are
> > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
> > > same.  What's the point of this choice?
> > 
> > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
> 
> I don't disagree with that point.
> 
> What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
> the other?  That's the question.  Doesn't seem like a great choice.

I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font.  See
the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Drew Adams]

> > > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They
> are
> > > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
> > > > same.  What's the point of this choice?
> > >
> > > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
> >
> > I don't disagree with that point.
> >
> > What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
> > the other?  That's the question.  Doesn't seem like a great choice.
> 
> I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font.  See
> the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.

Hm. What I see is that we specify the "courier" family, not that we ask
for a "Monospace Serif" font:

(defface Info-quoted '((t :family "courier"))
  "Face used for quoted elements.")

I know nothing about such things, but it seems odd that MS Windows
creates font Courier New, and seems to use it by default quite a bit,
and yet we tell it to use family "courier", and it ends up using
font Courier (if available), not Courier New.

I think maybe you are saying that there is no good way to make
the two use the same font by default.  So be it, if so.

[I'd suggest using two fonts that are more different, by default.
For one thing, that would make clear to users that a face is involved.
Or if there is no policy to avoid color, I would use the same font
but a foreground color different from the default (black).]

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> > typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font.  See
> > the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.
> 
> Hm. What I see is that we specify the "courier" family, not that we ask
> for a "Monospace Serif" font:
> 
> (defface Info-quoted '((t :family "courier"))
>   "Face used for quoted elements.")

That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
the released Emacs 25.1.

Nicolas, can you shed some light on this?

> I know nothing about such things, but it seems odd that MS Windows
> creates font Courier New, and seems to use it by default quite a bit,
> and yet we tell it to use family "courier", and it ends up using
> font Courier (if available), not Courier New.

It chooses the first font that satisfies the request.

> [I'd suggest using two fonts that are more different, by default.
> For one thing, that would make clear to users that a face is involved.

That's what we do, except that this somehow didn't get into Emacs
25.1.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Andreas Schwab]

On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
> fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
> the released Emacs 25.1.

It was installed after the release.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>,  Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>,  24597@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 20:44:27 +0200
> 
> On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
> > fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
> > the released Emacs 25.1.
> 
> It was installed after the release.

Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.

Thanks.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Andreas Schwab]

On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
>> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>,  Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>,  24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 20:44:27 +0200
>> 
>> On Okt 03 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > That's strange: it's "courier" in 25.1, but the release branch says
>> > fixed-pitch-serif, and the change was in May, so should have been in
>> > the released Emacs 25.1.
>> 
>> It was installed after the release.
>
> Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
> cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.

It shows the author date.  If you want to see the commit date use
--pretty=fuller.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>
> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org,  nicolas@petton.fr
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 23:11:47 +0200
> 
> > Oh, "git show" surprisingly shows the original commit date for
> > cherry-picked commits, so I became confused.
> 
> It shows the author date.

Yes, but it never says that, nor attempts to display both dates when
they are different.  How unhelpful.

> If you want to see the commit date use --pretty=fuller.

Thanks, the moment I understood the issue I did that in my
~/.gitconfig, so I won't ever need to remember this quirk.

bug#24597: 25.1; Fonts used by default in Info

[Stefan Kangas]

fixed 24597 26.1
close 24597
quit

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> Cc: 24597@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> > > Why use, by default, two **slightly** different looking fonts?  They are
>> > > not different enough to make ‘...’ very noticeable.  Nor are they the
>> > > same.  What's the point of this choice?
>> >
>> > The point is exactly to have a different face for symbols.
>>
>> I don't disagree with that point.
>>
>> What's the point of using family Courier for one and Courier New for
>> the other?  That's the question.  Doesn't seem like a great choice.
>
> I believe we don't specify Courier, it's just what Emacs picks up on a
> typical Windows machine when we ask for a "Monospace Serif" font.  See
> the definition of the Info-quoted face in info.el.

I believe that this was fixed in:

commit 36906806ccfc0e53f1d8c365ab0d7151288b7833
Author: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date:   Fri May 13 13:30:33 2016 -0700

    Improve display of tex-verbatim and Info quoted

Which was part of Emacs 26.1.  I'm therefore closing this bug as such.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas