From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Docs for &optional and &rest arguments together Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:27:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35995ba0-22de-4b81-b309-918ac8a733b6@default> References: <87o8icq958.fsf@gnus.org> <877doyoa9g.fsf@gnus.org> <20201231112634.GA5158@tuxteam.de>> < > < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__160944646664258481abhmp0002.oracle.com" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36153"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: arthur miller , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 31 21:29:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4ZN-00092N-J8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 21:29:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56492 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4ZM-0002SH-LV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:29:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52480) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4Y8-00021m-80 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:27:56 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:52762) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4Y5-0006od-QK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:27:55 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BVKPVR7118719; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:27:49 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=CBjVLFH1baKebmTqiwYzfq0WUS/Dsr7ghUWisn7kDAE=; b=VEAGS//uH8HykmjMOVoscBaAxdW99ATyPNoUbd9fZ4UEjJfmc2JoNF7rUqUGOOFmEKi3 HsLyf+h//KhvPhdYyy+4XKXgdcV/cGdnw/tig5AMJEP2WkXmgilEYtkRhA/FvHPPn8pl j2M2cdDsH7JoprhGR3KI4Ddyqe+E44VXq/87faRCvKUHh2a6Mhx1dH/GRKsBg6wfDQJ/ Uz+rCrHWpbJ4P33a/HAIeTWYCmmqJmAY2ACuQy0lHrMTWMGf9YxFGccGULikSbL1M9E1 NRMEfUHbk6kLQE+JRzni41nJ4QKgwxnMJs7xQ8b9h8vipP+rngVV7ew5DzfNS4IsgHlB pQ== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35phm1jpky-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:27:49 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BVKQ7YC011026; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:27:48 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35perpjwk5-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:27:48 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0BVKRlQC000969; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:27:47 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5095.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9851 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012310122 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9851 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012310122 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262204 Archived-At: --__160944646664258481abhmp0002.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not reflecting on who said anything. Just trying to help, as are others. Happy New Year to you, too. =20 It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of all best ladies deserves attentio= n, and I certainly have no need to read references to CL standards and hist= orical mailings etc.=20 =20 Whatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want and document what t= hey want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation which can be bett= er. =20 But it's not lack of attention, if you actually reflect over what I said, i= nstead of who said it, maybe you will see it too.=20 =20 Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next year! =20 > I have glanced through though, maybe I am missing it. =20 Don't just glance. Give it the attention that it and your understanding bot= h deserve. If that CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit dow= n, take it slowly, and reread carefully. =20 Both the Elisp doc and the CL doc about this are clear and complete, I thin= k. I suggest with respect that you're maybe just not paying enough attentio= n. =20 Don't be in a hurry. The info is there; just give it a chance - and another= read. =20 The CL link is not documentation, it is an essay, entire novel :-). But int= erestingly, that do not touch on that case either . I have glanced through = though, maybe I am missing it.=20 =20 > > I don't read it says both c and d are required > > when &rest is also used. >=20 > You just have to squint the other way .-) > They are not "required". They are provided -- in the call. It's just > that c is served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e: If someone finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists, I recommend consulting the Common Lisp doc (CLTL2) about it. Common Lisp lambda lists allow more stuff (&keys, &aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp has (&optional, &rest) the behavior is the same. The language in CLTL2 is quite precise. It too merits being read carefully, but I think it spells things out quite clearly. This is the section about lambda lists, which covers &optional and &rest: HYPERLINK "https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html= /cltl/clm/node64.html*SECTION00922000000000000000__;Iw!!GqivPVa7Brio!PxyUBv= Vt3a4Eze6ZtyLlEC6A236XgfttZKnn-7gkT1H6p1FBymyit-C_eQf2-wZH$"https://www.cs.= cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION00922000000000000000 With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread, I think things will become more clear. HTH. --__160944646664258481abhmp0002.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm no= t reflecting on who said anything. Just trying to help,

as are others. Happy New Year to you, too.=

 

It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of= all best ladies deserves attention, and I certainly have no need to read r= eferences to CL standards and historical mailings etc.

=

 

W= hatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want and document what th= ey want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation which can be bette= r.

 

But it's not lack of attention, if you actually = reflect over what I said, instead of who said it, maybe you will see it too= . 

 

=

Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next= year!

 

<= /div>

> I have glanced through though, may= be I am missing it.

 

Don't just glance. = Give it the attention that it and your understanding both deserve. If that = CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit down, take it slowly, = and reread carefully.

&= nbsp;

Both the Elisp do= c and the CL doc about this are clear and complete, I think. I suggest with= respect that you're maybe just not paying enough attention.

 

Don't be in a hurry. The info is there; just give it= a chance - and another read.

 

The CL = link is not documentation, it is an essay, entire novel :-). But interestin= gly, that do not touch on that case either . I have glanced through though,= maybe I am missing it.

 

> > I don't read it says both c= and d are required
> > when &rest is also used.
>
&= gt; You just have to squint the other way .-)
> They are not "re= quired". They are provided -- in the call. It's just
> that c is= served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e:

If someo= ne finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists,
I recommend consulting the Co= mmon Lisp doc (CLTL2)
about it.  Common Lisp lambda lists allow mor= e stuff
(&keys, &aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp
has= (&optional, &rest) the behavior is the same.

The language i= n CLTL2 is quite precise.  It too
merits being read carefully, but = I think it spells
things out quite clearly.

This is the section a= bout lambda lists, which covers
&optional and &rest:

https://www.cs.cmu= .edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION00922000000000000000
With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread,
I think things wil= l become more clear.  HTH.

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