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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel
Subject: RE: Docs for &optional and &rest arguments together
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:27:45 -0800 (PST)
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I'm not reflecting on who said anything. Just trying to help,

as are others. Happy New Year to you, too.

=20

It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of all best ladies deserves attentio=
n, and I certainly have no need to read references to CL standards and hist=
orical mailings etc.=20

=20

Whatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want and document what t=
hey want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation which can be bett=
er.

=20

But it's not lack of attention, if you actually reflect over what I said, i=
nstead of who said it, maybe you will see it too.=20

=20

Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next year!

=20

> I have glanced through though, maybe I am missing it.

=20

Don't just glance. Give it the attention that it and your understanding bot=
h deserve. If that CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit dow=
n, take it slowly, and reread carefully.

=20

Both the Elisp doc and the CL doc about this are clear and complete, I thin=
k. I suggest with respect that you're maybe just not paying enough attentio=
n.

=20

Don't be in a hurry. The info is there; just give it a chance - and another=
 read.

=20

The CL link is not documentation, it is an essay, entire novel :-). But int=
erestingly, that do not touch on that case either . I have glanced through =
though, maybe I am missing it.=20

=20

> > I don't read it says both c and d are required
> > when &rest is also used.
>=20
> You just have to squint the other way .-)
> They are not "required". They are provided -- in the call. It's just
> that c is served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e:

If someone finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists,
I recommend consulting the Common Lisp doc (CLTL2)
about it.  Common Lisp lambda lists allow more stuff
(&keys, &aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp
has (&optional, &rest) the behavior is the same.

The language in CLTL2 is quite precise.  It too
merits being read carefully, but I think it spells
things out quite clearly.

This is the section about lambda lists, which covers
&optional and &rest:

HYPERLINK "https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html=
/cltl/clm/node64.html*SECTION00922000000000000000__;Iw!!GqivPVa7Brio!PxyUBv=
Vt3a4Eze6ZtyLlEC6A236XgfttZKnn-7gkT1H6p1FBymyit-C_eQf2-wZH$"https://www.cs.=
cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION00922000000000000000

With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread,
I think things will become more clear.  HTH.

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>I'm no=
t reflecting on who said anything. Just trying to help,<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuch=
et MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>as are others. Happy New Year to you, too.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0i=
n 0in 4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of=
 all best ladies deserves attention, and I certainly have no need to read r=
eferences to CL standards and historical mailings etc. <o:p></o:p></p><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>W=
hatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want and document what th=
ey want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation which can be bette=
r.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>But it's not lack of attention, if you actually =
reflect over what I said, instead of who said it, maybe you will see it too=
.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next=
 year!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><=
/div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; I have glanced through though, may=
be I am missing it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>Don't just <i>glance</i>. =
Give it the attention that it and your understanding both deserve. If that =
CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit down, take it slowly, =
and reread carefully.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>Both the Elisp do=
c and the CL doc about this are clear and complete, I think. I suggest with=
 respect that you're maybe just not paying enough attention.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tr=
ebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",san=
s-serif;color:#1F4E79'>Don't be in a hurry. The info is there; just give it=
 a chance - and another read.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1=
F4E79'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:so=
lid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The CL =
link is not documentation, it is an essay, entire novel :-). But interestin=
gly, that do not touch on that case either . I have glanced through though,=
 maybe I am missing it. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.=
0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt; &gt; I don't read it says both c=
 and d are required<br>&gt; &gt; when &amp;rest is also used.<br>&gt; <br>&=
gt; You just have to squint the other way .-)<br>&gt; They are not &quot;re=
quired&quot;. They are provided -- in the call. It's just<br>&gt; that c is=
 served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e:<br><br>If someo=
ne finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists,<br>I recommend consulting the Co=
mmon Lisp doc (CLTL2)<br>about it.&nbsp; Common Lisp lambda lists allow mor=
e stuff<br>(&amp;keys, &amp;aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp<br>has=
 (&amp;optional, &amp;rest) the behavior is the same.<br><br>The language i=
n CLTL2 is quite precise.&nbsp; It too<br>merits being read carefully, but =
I think it spells<br>things out quite clearly.<br><br>This is the section a=
bout lambda lists, which covers<br>&amp;optional and &amp;rest:<br><br><a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/clt=
l/clm/node64.html*SECTION00922000000000000000__;Iw!!GqivPVa7Brio!PxyUBvVt3a=
4Eze6ZtyLlEC6A236XgfttZKnn-7gkT1H6p1FBymyit-C_eQf2-wZH$">https://www.cs.cmu=
.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION00922000000000000000</a><br=
><br>With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread,<br>I think things wil=
l become more clear.&nbsp; HTH.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></body></html>
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