From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#13571: 24.3.50; doc of `interactive' Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34ce18af-ab24-46ed-b6e9-911a58ed0e33@default> References: <6B1C0A2C1FE74926A90E8BEFA7562DF4@us.oracle.com> <871t5p4blg.fsf@gnus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1461945770 9110 80.91.229.3 (29 Apr 2016 16:02:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:02:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 13571@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 29 18:02:35 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1awAsE-0001RH-Dy for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:02:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55328 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awAs7-0006N2-Eh for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:02:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57288) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awAry-00069l-79 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:02:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awArm-0005gF-53 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:02:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:43213) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awArm-0005f7-20 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awAri-0002Sn-Fe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:02:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 13571 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: fixed Original-Received: via spool by 13571-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B13571.14619456726939 (code B ref 13571); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:02:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 13571) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 16:01:12 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55550 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awAqu-0001ne-2A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:01:12 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:45819) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awAqs-0001iD-BL for 13571@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:01:10 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u3TG143i032089 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:01:04 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TG13CE011435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:01:04 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TG10vi028940; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:01:01 GMT In-Reply-To: <871t5p4blg.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117202 Archived-At: > > 1. For `v' it should not say "Variable name", even if it also mentions > > `custom-variable-p'. It should speak of "option", not "variable". > > E.g.: > > > > Option: a symbol that is `custom-variable-p'. The name is read. > > > > A user should not need to click `custom-variable-p', or be already > > familiar with that Lisp predicate, to understand that this reads > > an option name, not the name of an arbitrary variable. >=20 > I disagree. Saying that it's a variable helps with understanding here. No. There are several kinds of variable in Emacs Lisp. This is a very particular kind of variable. And what is particularly special about it (besides being global and dynamic) is that it is (1) specifically intended for user modification and, in particular, (2) modification using the Customize UI. > > 2. There is confusion in the doc string and in (elisp) > > `Interactive Codes' regarding (a) what a given interactive > > code reads and (b) what value it returns/provides for the argument. > > > > In particular, we misleadingly see mention of "name" here and there. > > > > A name is read in such cases, but a name, i.e., a string, is not > > always what is returned. In many cases, a symbol is returned. > > A symbol is a special Lisp object, and definitely not a name. > > It has a name, as well as other properties. > > > > Some of the entries, such as `b', are correct: they read and return a > > name, not the object named (e.g. a buffer). > > > > The following entries incorrectly speak of "name". They read names, bu= t > > they return symbols, and the doc is not clear about this. > > > > a > > C > > v > > z > > Z >=20 > All these say that are symbols, and I think that's clear enough. 1. Wrong. z and Z say no such thing (in the doc string). 2. You miss the point, which is made extra clear in the part of the report that you elided: See the entry for `S' in the manual (not the doc string), for proper distinction between what is read (a symbol name) and what is returned (a symbol). See also #1 above, for another example of possible wording. If you consult that entry you see this: `S' An interned symbol whose name is read in the minibuffer. Terminate the input with either `C-j' or . Other characters that normally terminate a symbol (e.g., whitespace, parentheses and brackets) do not do so here. Prompt. Very clear. It reads a name and returns a symbol. The same behavior is true for the other codes mentioned in this bug report, but their descriptions do NOT make this clear. That's the bug. A symbol is an object that has a name. A name is not a symbol. A symbol name is read with these codes. A symbol is not read, but a symbol is returned.