From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:45:36 +0200 Message-ID: <33937d90-66f1-4fb0-9c96-03b713bbb93a@app.fastmail.com> References: <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5u56atj.fsf@gmail.com> <87r0nhhgb5.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87y1hp3pjm.fsf@gmail.com> <9b605d5a-3186-4764-b43d-854a68d04d0e@app.fastmail.com> <87jzt745uo.fsf@gmail.com> <83bkej6xmc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=4e708ed164554c65845b2be063bbad93 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8783"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= , "Alan Mackenzie" , "Danny Freeman" , "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , "Emacs Devel" To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 03 22:46:57 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qctzk-00021K-CY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Sun, 3 Sep 2023 16:45:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <83bkej6xmc.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310025 Archived-At: --4e708ed164554c65845b2be063bbad93 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > And even if his behavior were problematic, calling your opponent a > "jerk" is far from being kind. Discussions are a two-way street, and > if you are opposed to unkind words, you should try very hard not to > use them yourself. I take matters of comm etiquette quite seriously, but when someone start= s to take personal swipes at me that's where I draw the line. Hostile be= havior should not go unnoticed and I think you, as one of the leaders of= the project should try to ensure we have a non-hostile environment. ema= cs-devel is kind of infamous for the harsh language that's tolerated her= e and if we want to have a bit more inclusive community some efforts sho= uld be invested in curbing hostilities.=20 It's really hard to have a meaningful conversation when someone is makin= g weird (and wrong) claims about me, my motives and so on. That's someth= ing which I really dislike and I'd like us to avoid. In general there sh= ouldn't be "opponents" here, given that supposedly we're on fighting for= the same cause.=20 On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:16 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:55:13 +0200 > > From: "Bozhidar Batsov" > > Cc: "Danny Freeman" , "Eli Zaretskii" , > > "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , > > "Emacs Devel" > >=20 > > All I did was to follow up on a suggested path and study technical = ways > > to getting Clojure editing support in Emacs, better than what we ha= ve > > now, which is 0. I think is a pretty reasonable thing to do on > > emacs-devel. It's not an immoral thing to do and I'm not coming fo= r His > > Highness The Great Clojure Authority Life's Work. > >=20 > > Joao, I've tried to be polite, but you behave like a total jerk righ= t now. That's really disappointing as > > you used to be one of my Emacs heroes for a very long time. That mak= es me very sad. Such attitude > > alienates a lot of people from emacs-devel IMO.=20 > >=20 > > Eli, I hope you'll agree that such attitude is really counter-produc= tive.=20 >=20 > The sarcasm was uncalled for, but other than that, I don't see Jo=C3=A3= o's > conduct in this thread as a problem, no. He proposed a lightweight > alternative to a full-blown clojure-mode, which is a legitimate > proposal. If nothing else, people could take his code into their init > files and use it locally, if they want. >=20 > And even if his behavior were problematic, calling your opponent a > "jerk" is far from being kind. Discussions are a two-way street, and > if you are opposed to unkind words, you should try very hard not to > use them yourself. >=20 >=20 --4e708ed164554c65845b2be063bbad93 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And even if his behavior were problemati= c, calling your opponent a
"jerk" is far from being kind.&= nbsp; Discussions are a two-way street, and
if you are opp= osed to unkind words, you should try very hard not to
use = them yourself.

I take matters = of comm etiquette quite seriously, but when someone starts to take perso= nal swipes at me that's where I draw the line. Hostile behavior should n= ot go unnoticed and I think you, as one of the leaders of the project sh= ould try to ensure we have a non-hostile environment. emacs-devel is kin= d of infamous for the harsh language that's tolerated here and if we wan= t to have a bit more inclusive community some efforts should be invested= in curbing hostilities.

It's really hard = to have a meaningful conversation when someone is making weird (and wron= g) claims about me, my motives and so on. That's something which I reall= y dislike and I'd like us to avoid. In general there shouldn't be "oppon= ents" here, given that supposedly we're on fighting for the same cause. =

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:16 PM, Eli Zaret= skii wrote:
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 17:55:13 +0200
> From: "Bo= zhidar Batsov" <bozhidar@batso= v.dev>
> Cc: "Danny Freeman" <danny@dfreeman.email>, "Eli Zaretskii" &= lt;eliz@gnu.org>,
&= gt;  "Dmitry Gutov" <dmitry@= gutov.dev>, "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>,
>  "Emacs Devel" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
>  All I did was to follow up on a su= ggested path and study technical ways
>  to gettin= g Clojure editing support in Emacs, better than what we have
>  now, which is 0.  I think is a pretty reasonable thin= g to do on
>  emacs-devel.  It's not an immor= al thing to do and I'm not coming for His
>  Highn= ess The Great Clojure Authority Life's Work.
> 
> Joao, I've tried to be polite, but you behave like a to= tal jerk right now. That's really disappointing as
> yo= u used to be one of my Emacs heroes for a very long time. That makes me = very sad. Such attitude
> alienates a lot of people fro= m emacs-devel IMO. 
> 
> Eli= , I hope you'll agree that such attitude is really counter-productive.&n= bsp;

The sarcasm was uncalled for, but othe= r than that, I don't see Jo=C3=A3o's
conduct in this threa= d as a problem, no.  He proposed a lightweight
altern= ative to a full-blown clojure-mode, which is a legitimate
= proposal.  If nothing else, people could take his code into their i= nit
files and use it locally, if they want.
=
And even if his behavior were problematic, calling your o= pponent a
"jerk" is far from being kind.  Discussions= are a two-way street, and
if you are opposed to unkind wo= rds, you should try very hard not to
use them yourself.



= --4e708ed164554c65845b2be063bbad93--