From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs i18n Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:31:53 +0200 Message-ID: <3329188.T0m1InA4o2@galex-713.eu> References: <21691570.QVqMGgByyo@galex-713.eu> <878s20dwmf.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1464"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 21 09:32:26 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m66iP-0000HV-3r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:32:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59322 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66iO-0004UA-5s for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:32:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51152) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hz-0004Tr-VU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:31:59 -0400 Original-Received: from portable.galex-713.eu ([2a00:5884:8305::1]:33754 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m66hw-00054J-Ji for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 03:31:59 -0400 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m66ht-00057S-Kj for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:31:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <878s20dwmf.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131925 Archived-At: Le mercredi 21 juillet 2021, 08:11:36 CEST Emanuel Berg via Users list for= =20 the GNU Emacs text editor a =C3=A9crit : > Alexandre Garreau wrote: > >> Anglo-American beat French to world dominance, accept it. > >=20 > > Nobody told in this thread French had any world dominance. > > Although you may note that the concern about english is > > often raised by french people >=20 > They are the ONLY people who EVER brings this up. ok so what? that a french says something does not make it automatically=20 wrong. and if you already contradicted other frenches in the same way=20 well we are not all connected through a shared mind so you cannot expect=20 us to learn that once for all. > > and maybe for some sort of inconscious nationalism or > > rempent national aversion toward english due to that > > previous context, the concern stays valid, and you cannot > > cancel an argument validity due to the people who raise it. >=20 > We WANT the French-speaking people, and they are here already > as we clearly see, but this isn't the 70s anymore where there > were one "expert" on the same subject in every god damned > country who had read a couple of 12 books on the subject and > wrote a nice summary on in, resembling pretty much exactly > what some other dude did in some other country reading his 12 > books! The langauge of science and technology IS English, it > if had been French I would have written the same thing, only > in defense of French - but it _isn't_ French, and everyone > understands that - even the French, as we clearly see - but > unlike everyone else, the French pretends or do not accept > this in some places of their minds, so they bring this up over > and over, #$&%@! indeed, so nobody is arguing about that, so why bring it on? > >> There is no miniature world of computers where everyone > >> speaks French or any other language who badly needs > >> translations, drop it. > >=20 > > There is >=20 > THERE IS NOT, and whatever fraction there is is getting > smaller by the day, it isn't a place were you yourself would > like to be restricted to, so why ever would you like that for > your compatriots that are, BTW, fully capable of learning > English just like everyone else? some people don=E2=80=99t, sometimes by inability (yet I can concede that a= bility=20 is usually very connected with the needed abilities to be competent in CS= =E2=80=A6=20 yet there is (unfortunately?) a strong pressure to put more people inside=20 CS than the quantity of people that may be competent in it), sometimes=20 hindered by some psychological issue (btw that same kind of issues is what= =20 drives many people away from CS, especially womyns=E2=80=A6 yet these are=20 unrelated). > In fact, the French language > is much closer to English than a lot of other languages, there > is no disadvantage at all in any sense or in anyway, and we > see this every day when we speak English to people from the > French-speaking world! our languages are equally unspokable with unneededly complex phonology,=20 unlike most languages on the earth, also > > not only in france, but any non-germanic place I have been > > through. English, just like french, is a difficult language >=20 > No, because of popular culture, technology, and proximity of > languages it is very easy for anyone these days to learn > English, if the have any ambitions whatsoever with science and > technology they already know English before they even enter > the university? I guess according that viewpoint of yours many people entering university=20 just do without =E2=80=9Cambitions=E2=80=9D, so we should bar that from the= m. english may be, because of its dominance, a lot facilitated, but in=20 comparison with many languages it is difficult, mostly because of its=20 phonology and imprecision. but french is equally bad about that. if it=20 had been mandarin or russian I=E2=80=99d find it better (but if you start t= alking=20 about tones or number of verb forms and how that would make that=20 impossible, you would get the point the same issue arise with english=20 making it somehow impossible for some people). > > with lot of vocabulary. You=E2=80=99re living is a small-world > > utopia that=E2=80=99s nowhere near even realistic. >=20 > We live in the same world of science and technology where the > language is English, maybe it made sense in the 70-80s to > translate the man pages or whatever (the French were the only > ones who got close BTW, that said French programmers today are > typically _not_ using that old, incomplete, un-updated stuff > were you have to wonder - I swear they do > even if it was perfect, which it is > not and cannot be, so no disrespect to the translators you are doing the very opposite from respect telling their work is=20 negative :') but well everybody should be allowed to tell a whole=20 discipline is useless or even negative, who knows that may be right (I=20 usually think that way about english teachers (I mean, people speaking=20 english for real never do that because of teachers, that=E2=80=99s so much = money=20 wasted)). > - even it > if was perfect they'd still have to wonder about what > everything is, what is interface, interface > hash algorithm,=20 algorithme de hachage > API, the english term is just used (but pronounced in french), but it seems to=20 be used only in modern context or by younger people, in other cases=20 =E2=80=9Cinterface=E2=80=9D (or the translation of library, by metonymy) > proxy, used as is > client-server, those words are from french > raster, used as is > shading langauge, same > checksum, often same, otherwise =E2=80=9Csomme de contr=C3=B4le=E2=80=9D when you wan= t to sound formal > compression with the > use > of tagged chunks, Alice and Bob in French? why aren't the > English-language software options congruent with ... wait, > what terms are we using, even? The French or the English? > (Oh, I know Alice and Bob - Abelard et H=C3=A9lo=C3=AFse, n'est-ce pas?) Alice is commonly used in France, but not Bob (yet it is known), so we use= =20 them as well when explaining cryptography (same for Eve (though most=20 frenchs aren=E2=80=99t aware about the pun with =E2=80=9Cevesdropping=E2=80= =9D), etc.), the last=20 two french names sound from the past century. I mean most languages, especially with technology, just do that: copy=20 words. That=E2=80=99s precisely why 75% of english vocabulary comes from f= rench,=20 whose a great part comes straight from latin, whose a great part comes=20 straight from greek, whose some part comes from egyptian (or other semitic= =20 language at some other point of time)=E2=80=A6 I mean, when two people in a country speaking the same language need to=20 talk about their discipline, do you really believe they use english?=20 orally? that would be extremely painful, even if both often are fluent, and= =20 write most of their stuff in english, and publish only in english. the fact technology globalize (and it always have) doesn=E2=80=99t makes la= nguages=20 disappear capitalism added to imperialism and nationalism eventually makes languages= =20 disappear, but france has purposedly made disappear enough languages so=20 for it to be obvious. > > Even those who *fluently* speak english are commonly *tired* > > with it. >=20 > No, that is true only in the initial, beginner phase, I=E2=80=99m speak english fluently since a decade, you pretend I speak it w= ell, and=20 yet it makes me tired, for real. some languages are less tiring than others, spanish and russian are kinda=20 okay, but english is really tiring because I *all the time* try to=20 pronounce stuff correctly, which is of course impossible, and a huge=20 distraction, and I could just try to make up some weird pseudo-italian=20 accent that would look russian and I would be less distracted but it=20 sounds weird enough that I quickly resume back to trying to fake original=20 english accent and here we go=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not the only one, I mean you are trying to counterargument very= very=20 very obvious stuff and wasting most of your credit to any english-non- native reader u.u > then on > the contrary one gets tired of reading it in a language that > is _foreign_ to it, to what? > the _native_ language is always the best > and the native language in the science and technology world is > English, US English in particular. native in this context does not mean anything. in linguistics, sociology,=20 demography, history, etc. native has a very specific meaning, and you are=20 trying to borrow a weird meaning, most likely from a metaphor inside CS,=20 except it is conflicting with some other science so it=E2=80=99s not unders= tandable=20 anymore > > Even I, and actually anybody because that=E2=80=99s natural, would > > choose to read something in their native(s) language(s) > > rather than a foreign one >=20 > English isn't foreign here, it is the native language of > the field. and yet I can=E2=80=99t be sure you=E2=80=99re right or trolling me about t= he meaning of=20 foreign=E2=80=A6 understand =E2=80=9Cnon-native to said person=E2=80=9D if you prefer=E2=80= =A6 my point still=20 holds. > > Just to be sure, you=E2=80=99re a native speaker of english right? >=20 > Hahaha :) Are you kidding, I'm Swedish! well at least that=E2=80=99s still a germanic language u.u and english is a= lot=20 more common in your countries than in latin ones (and in these it is still= =20 more than anywhere else) > That said, these > rantings are to be put on my account solely, I'm sure many of > my countrymen who reads this thinks I'm insane or something... > ha :) well it is reassuring that you=E2=80=99re aware of the level of the point y= ou=E2=80=99re=20 trying to make, at least I won=E2=80=99t generalize anything and keep in mi= nd that=20 it=E2=80=99s only you saying that, because otherwise it would have been ver= y=20 desperating u.u (I mean for instance lately I=E2=80=99ve had a =E2=80=9Ccha= nce=E2=80=9D to speak=20 to a lot more extreme-right-wing ppl, and I wouldn=E2=80=99t wanted another= such=20 novelty=E2=80=A6) > > or have you tried to work in mandarin >=20 > This instant, in another buffer I have a friend on IRC from > ROC wait what=E2=80=99s roc? > and he speaks better English than me (he thinks that at > least :)) and I was a CS student when Sweden offered courses > free of charge (now they do that only to EU contrives) so every > course, taught in English, was like 50% people from China! > I lived in a student house for 7 years with a configuration of > Chinese people ALWAYS present at one time or the other, > EVERYONE spoke English, all the books were in English, exams > were in English, the Chinese guys were sometimes a weird bunch > to deal with on an everyday basis but the problem was _never_ > their or mine or anyone else's (certainly not the French who > were also there, but in much smaller numbers) NO ONE had any > problem whatsoever with the English, trust me! you realize you (a) did not answer about mandarin, (b) that this cannot be= =20 representative in any way, because china already holds more than a eigth=20 of current humankind right? > > on the ground that its syntax is said to be simple and > > flexionless, to say it=E2=80=99s as easy as in your native language? >=20 > I'm not saying I or anyone else is as good with English as we > are with our own languages, it sometimes really looked like it. I guess you must admit some =E2=80=9Cs= mall=20 areas of exception=E2=80=9D, but not acknowledging the tire of speaking a=20 different-from-native language really looks like it=E2=80=A6 > except for when speaking of one > thing - technology. The language is of course not perfect, how > could it ever be, but it is "good enough for government work", > good enough for the intended purpose. (I don't think my > English as in English in general is that good actually, maybe > my ROC friend is right.) >=20 > > otherwise, do you have studies showing the opposite? >=20 > We don't need studies, we have something stronger, reality. oh ok it=E2=80=99s a joke, haha ^^ > > There are everywhere teachings of CS in english *as > > a special matter*, that=E2=80=99s a way to *train* for english > > because that training is *needed* because it is nonnatural, > > and it is a difficulty and people try lowering it by > > confronting to it... yet most of courses are in the national > > language, not english. >=20 > Not here. But that's OK, I'm not saying all universities that > teach technology must necessarily do everything in English > this very instant. can=E2=80=99t wait all germanic languages extinguish into english so at lea= st that=20 kind of argument won=E2=80=99t be held anymore. maybe one or two generatio= ns=20 would be sufficient=E2=80=A6 > But that's were we are heading anyway. > In the 70s everyone wrote their PhDs in their own languages. I bet ukrainians unfortunately didn=E2=80=99t do that in ukrainian=E2=80=A6 > Now people even write their BSc in English. There will only be > more and more of this and that's a good thing. Those who don't > will be at a disadvantage. even doing it, not having english as a native language puts you at a=20 disadvantage. just look at the native language of most current=20 billionaires=E2=80=A6 actually the best thing would be =E2=80=9Cjust get born into an english-spe= aking=20 country=E2=80=9D, tbh. but this has been said a lot of times. > Those who do not know _any_ English > will be at such a disadvantage they won't be able to > contribute or acquire information in a way that make them even > belong, sorry. belong to what? I=E2=80=99m sure there are people in korea and china doing very relevant wo= rk in=20 technology, that is only afterwards translated into english. > > Some vocabulary obviously comes from english, and > > englishisms are present more often than not, but the > > grammar, phonology, orthography, syntax, and most of > > vocabulary we use stay our national (or even sometimes, with > > luck (that means not in france) the local one) language. >=20 > Yes, of course, but it isn't about that, it is about English > as a tool to communicate about technology, it isn't about the > beauty of the language, I didn=E2=80=99t bring that on in this paragraph > I'm sure some of the things I write > would make a Grammar School teacher blush, but that's OK, it > is at this point unavoidable and perhaps that will always be > like that, even, but even now and long before I write this > people have collaborated on zillion projects speaking English - > and French and Russian also, and Swedish even - only these > languages didn't make it to the #1 position that English has, > right here and right now - so instead of translating, if you > want to help "your" people (not necessary IMO, but OK) what > you should do is became English _teachers_, this is a despiceable job. you learn a language by using it, not by=20 studying it. writing interesting material in the said language is more=20 productive than teaching it. also language teaching is extremely bad in=20 this country, and nobody exactly understands why (but possibly because of=20 french and how french people relate to it (that may explain why many=20 french people bring that on)) =20 > > emacs is only for programmers and CS-ists >=20 > Yes, but it is much, much broader than that, you don't have to > be a programmer, it is enough to have a smartphone and > smart-TV and god damn computer, this has already contributed > A LOT to how people speak English, Germans at 20 for example > speak much better English than I did, when I was 20 (and then > I thought Germans couldn't speak English at all, maybe), so > NO, it is not necessary for you to be an Emacs user or > programmer, everyone that uses technology is benefited > tremendously for knowing English and it works both ways, > technology makes you better at English (ordinary English, > between humans) as well, because English is not the langauge > of just nations like the US, England <3, Australia <3 and so > on the term you are searching for is =E2=80=9CUS + commonwealth=E2=80=9D. > it is also the language of TECHNOLOGY, so make people > COME, don't work on things that will make them NOT COME @%&#$! actually I don=E2=80=99t care, to me anything of value will be translated i= n the=20 needed language (be it english) eventually, and the disadvantages is small= =20 and not worth the effort. I would think differently if languages weren=E2=80=99t disappearing at a fa= ster=20 pace than we are registering them (and understanding them, as linguistics=20 as a human science is still incomplete and unable to fully restore=20 languages features), and/or if the dominant language was less horrible=20 than english or french (russian, esperanto, quechua, or korean would be=20 enough), so that=E2=80=99s partly esthetics indeed, *here* But that=E2=80=99s happening anyway! and translation is a hard and difficul= t and=20 tiresome work, so=E2=80=A6 your discourse is pretty useless I think=E2=80= =A6 given the=20 direction in which we are heading, I think you would be a lot more=20 productive and useful if you spent all that time arguing about how we can=20 totally get rid of biodiversity with that being a great thing. > > That would be the kind of "user-friendliness", btw, that may > > have an effective impact on making more women or minorities > > join CS, and moreover less occidental, as that concern has > > come more into fashion recently. >=20 > Women are already almost 100% binary wdym? > and they are better at > communicating than men some would say so they would have no > problem because of the English language to join the tech world that reasoning is unconvincing > As for minorities that have historically had a position of > disadvantage the more technology and the more English to them > the better! this looks like =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s get the rich richers and the poorer = people will=20 naturally get some more money so the inequality problem will be solved=E2= =80=9D,=20 this reasoning is broken. > PS. ha :) stop it... that could count both ways=E2=80=A6 PS: that trolling is becoming amusing, the caricature you are building=20 could be a very efficient strawman, I=E2=80=99m thinking about conserving a= nd=20 pointing at that discussion later (but carefully, I don=E2=80=99t want to t= arnish=20 emacs=E2=80=99 reputation)