[ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Neven]

Hi,

Sorry if considered spammish, but since it has been mentioned yesterday
and it might interest some Android users out there...

*NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
reading right about now...

Anyway -- it is an outliner, todo-managing, notes-taking,
agenda-showing, org-mode-wannabe app, which uses .org files for encoding
the notebooks in when syncing.

Currently, only syncing to Dropbox is supported, but more methods will
follow after the first production release (starting from SSH, Git,
WebDAV probably).

As mentioned, it is not an open source project, but some parts of the
code will be released in the future.  Java reader/writer for org files
is written from scratch (imaginatively named jorgmode) and is a good
candidate for that.  Perhaps some Android-specific parts as well.

You can find more (read: less) info on:

  http://www.orgzly.com/
  
App is available on Google Play as Beta -- which means you have to join
Google group https://groups.google.com/d/forum/orgzly-android-beta
first, to get a link to it.

It has a limited set of features, but it should be already useful enough
-- you can create, edit, delete, move, promote, demote, cut, paste,
schedule, tag, prioritize and search notes.

And sync notebooks.  You might want to *copy* some of your org files to
a new directory (or directories) you'll use for syncing and make sure
you're happy with generated files.  Files should be identical *except*
for some white space.  Let me know if it doesn't work for you or you
notice anything else strange.

Not too many different org files were used for testing -- worg, personal
and some random ones found on the net were used.  If you know where to
find some more, do tell.  Never enough for this kind of testing.

Anyway -- hope you find the app useful (young as it is).

Any questions, suggestions, ideas, issues, etc. are very welcome -- you
can use the group mentioned above (posting by email is enabled), reply
to me, or use support@orgzly.com.


Thanks,

Neven

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Xebar Saram]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2340 bytes --]

thx!

i am excited about any org android app :)

will try it when i get home

Z

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Neven <neven@orgzly.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry if considered spammish, but since it has been mentioned yesterday
> and it might interest some Android users out there...
>
> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
> will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
> reading right about now...
>
> Anyway -- it is an outliner, todo-managing, notes-taking,
> agenda-showing, org-mode-wannabe app, which uses .org files for encoding
> the notebooks in when syncing.
>
> Currently, only syncing to Dropbox is supported, but more methods will
> follow after the first production release (starting from SSH, Git,
> WebDAV probably).
>
> As mentioned, it is not an open source project, but some parts of the
> code will be released in the future.  Java reader/writer for org files
> is written from scratch (imaginatively named jorgmode) and is a good
> candidate for that.  Perhaps some Android-specific parts as well.
>
> You can find more (read: less) info on:
>
>   http://www.orgzly.com/
>
> App is available on Google Play as Beta -- which means you have to join
> Google group https://groups.google.com/d/forum/orgzly-android-beta
> first, to get a link to it.
>
> It has a limited set of features, but it should be already useful enough
> -- you can create, edit, delete, move, promote, demote, cut, paste,
> schedule, tag, prioritize and search notes.
>
> And sync notebooks.  You might want to *copy* some of your org files to
> a new directory (or directories) you'll use for syncing and make sure
> you're happy with generated files.  Files should be identical *except*
> for some white space.  Let me know if it doesn't work for you or you
> notice anything else strange.
>
> Not too many different org files were used for testing -- worg, personal
> and some random ones found on the net were used.  If you know where to
> find some more, do tell.  Never enough for this kind of testing.
>
> Anyway -- hope you find the app useful (young as it is).
>
> Any questions, suggestions, ideas, issues, etc. are very welcome -- you
> can use the group mentioned above (posting by email is enabled), reply
> to me, or use support@orgzly.com.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neven
>
>

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Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Rasmus]

Hi Neven,

Thanks for explaining your program here.  The screenshots/animations on
your website look pretty.

Neven <neven@orgzly.com> writes:

> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
> will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
> reading right about now...

I must admit that I feel uncomfortable because you use the name org-mode
to promote a product that does not respect the "4 freedoms" as put forth
by the FSF.  E.g. if you make mistakes, it may reflect poorly on us, and
we won't even be able to fix it or distribute a version that is not broken
if we so desired.  That's just /my/ personal opinion, though.

> Not too many different org files were used for testing -- worg, personal
> and some random ones found on the net were used.  If you know where to
> find some more, do tell.  Never enough for this kind of testing.

On the other hand, I'm happy that you (also) find joy in the Org format!

Cheers,
Rasmus

-- 
. . . It begins of course with The Internet.  A Net of Peers

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Jose E. Marchesi]

    
    *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
    will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
    reading right about now...

Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Scott Randby]

+1 for not using this list for cost free promotion of proprietary software.

Scott Randby

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jose E. Marchesi <jemarch@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>     *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>     will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>     reading right about now...
>
> Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.
>

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Neven]

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:
>> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>> will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>> reading right about now...

Sorry if this sounded a bit arrogant and if the whole email sounded as
an ad.  It wasn't my intention, as the app if free (although only as a
beer currently).

I use org-mode for everything and this app was created from my need to
do some work on the phone.  Setting up MobileOrg and apps at the time
didn't work for me.

Maybe I should have gone the route of contributing to the existing
implementation, but the second reason for this app was learning Android
-- it literally grew from my first Hello World app.

> I must admit that I feel uncomfortable because you use the name org-mode
> to promote a product that does not respect the "4 freedoms" as put forth
> by the FSF.  E.g. if you make mistakes, it may reflect poorly on us, and
> we won't even be able to fix it or distribute a version that is not broken
> if we so desired.  That's just /my/ personal opinion, though.

OK, that makes sense.

I was planning to add support for multiple file formats in the future --
maybe todo.txt, taskwarrior's JSON etc.

But for start, I will remove any references to org-mode as such.  (it's
gone from the website now).  I'll refer only to .org files where needed.
That is -- org as a file format, not emacs's mode.

I hope that would be an improvement, if someone doesn't think so, please
let me know.  The parser will be open sourced which I hope will help
too.

Anyway, I'm still deciding what to do with the app.  I might just go
ahead and open source it in the end.  I'd much rather see people finding
it useful, then trying to make money from it.


Neven

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Melleus]

MobileOrg for Android was abandoned finally, was it?

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Neven]

Melleus <melleus@openmailbox.org> writes:
> MobileOrg for Android was abandoned finally, was it?

There is a new open source project:

  https://github.com/hdweiss/mOrgAnd

announced here:

  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mobileorg-android/I9qTE5G56Gg/ltYXvulYs9QJ


Neven

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Subhan Michael Tindall]

OK, I love this! 
I installed it, setup was easy as I already sync some relevant .org files  through dropbox.
The interface is pretty smooth, there's a few significant things that need handled(checkboxes and #+TODO per-file configuration tripped me up already), but mostly everything works.
I will happily be contributing testing and feedback. I've been looking for a decent way to include my phone in my org workflow,  and this likes very promising!
Kepp up the good work!
Subhan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org
> [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+subhant=familycareinc.org@gnu.org] On
> Behalf Of Neven
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 3:33 AM
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: [O] [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Sorry if considered spammish, but since it has been mentioned yesterday
> and it might interest some Android users out there...
> 
> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
> will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
> reading right about now...
> 
> Anyway -- it is an outliner, todo-managing, notes-taking, agenda-showing,
> org-mode-wannabe app, which uses .org files for encoding the notebooks in
> when syncing.
> 
> Currently, only syncing to Dropbox is supported, but more methods will
> follow after the first production release (starting from SSH, Git, WebDAV
> probably).
> 
> As mentioned, it is not an open source project, but some parts of the code
> will be released in the future.  Java reader/writer for org files is written from
> scratch (imaginatively named jorgmode) and is a good candidate for that.
> Perhaps some Android-specific parts as well.
> 
> You can find more (read: less) info on:
> 
>   http://www.orgzly.com/
> 
> App is available on Google Play as Beta -- which means you have to join
> Google group https://groups.google.com/d/forum/orgzly-android-beta
> first, to get a link to it.
> 
> It has a limited set of features, but it should be already useful enough
> -- you can create, edit, delete, move, promote, demote, cut, paste,
> schedule, tag, prioritize and search notes.
> 
> And sync notebooks.  You might want to *copy* some of your org files to a
> new directory (or directories) you'll use for syncing and make sure you're
> happy with generated files.  Files should be identical *except* for some
> white space.  Let me know if it doesn't work for you or you notice anything
> else strange.
> 
> Not too many different org files were used for testing -- worg, personal and
> some random ones found on the net were used.  If you know where to find
> some more, do tell.  Never enough for this kind of testing.
> 
> Anyway -- hope you find the app useful (young as it is).
> 
> Any questions, suggestions, ideas, issues, etc. are very welcome -- you can
> use the group mentioned above (posting by email is enabled), reply to me,
> or use support@orgzly.com.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neven


This message is intended for the sole use of the individual and entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended addressee, nor authorized to receive for the intended addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete the message.  Thank you.

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2015-01-22, at 17:41, Jose E. Marchesi <jemarch@gnu.org> wrote:

>     *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>     will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>     reading right about now...
>
> Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.

It might be the case that I do not understand something.

AFAIR, there was a recent discussion on another GNU mailing list about
usability of Emacs under Windows.  (Maybe it was somewhere else, I'm not
sure, then my question is theoretical.)  A few people claimed that Emacs
under Windows is fully functional and works well.  Would this also be
considered "promoting proprietary software"?

Also, I see the situation this way.  The guy decided that he liked
Org-mode, and spent his time and effort to build something that makes it
even more useful.  He might (or might not) want to make money on it.  He
might (or might not) release the code for everyone to inspect.  Both are
his decisions and his rights.  What he needs (e.g., for testing) is some
userbase.  OTOH, I presume that there are people who would be willing to
try this app and maybe use it on a regular basis.

He began very apologetically (even too much, imho), saying:

> Sorry if considered spammish, but since it has been mentioned
> yesterday and it might interest some Android users out there...
>
> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of
> code will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you
> can stop reading right about now...

I admit that I'm not a native speaker of English, but I can't fathom how
this might be considered "promoting".  Informing, yes.  Promoting?  Come
on.  He explicitly warned about the situation at the very beginning.  (I
assume that the posts to this mailing lists are only received by people
who had voluntarily opted for it, and that FSF does not send unsolicited
email - then I could understand using a word like "promotion".)

Now the question is: what is the most appropriate place to *inform*
about his project.  If not the Org-mode discussion list, I really don't
know.  (I assume that nobody denies his *right* to license his work
according to his wishes, of course, for if not, another explanation
would be that this project doesn't have any right to *exist* in the
first place.)

Now Rasmus comes and says:

> I must admit that I feel uncomfortable because you use the name
> org-mode to promote a product that does not respect the "4 freedoms"
> as put forth by the FSF.  E.g. if you make mistakes, it may reflect
> poorly on us, and we won't even be able to fix it or distribute
> a version that is not broken if we so desired.  That's just /my/
> personal opinion, though.

which is a very well-thought, delicate way of saying that he doesn't
like the situation.  (Personally, I do not 100% agree with Rasmus'
opinion, but I can see the rationale behind it.)

Then others come and say some, ekhm, not-extremely-nice things to
someone who was definitely not trolling or anything like this.

And all that not taking into consideration that the project might gain
some publicity for Org-mode and Emacs, which seems a good thing.

I.  Don't.  Understand.  This.

Another (a bit theoretical) example.  Mickey Petersen the Great (of
Mastering Emacs fame) has recently announced a book on Emacs.  Assume
that he writes it in LaTeX, so his book is basically a product of
a *computer program* (even if in a weird programming language).  Let us
further assume that he will sell his book in bookstores (it might be in
ebook form, with or without DRM, or in paper form - never mind, I do not
know the exact details).  Would he be prohibited from mentioning his
project (which clearly involves a non-free piece of *software*, i.e.,
the LaTeX source file, and promotes the *result* of executing this piece
of code) on Emacs mailing list?  I am very interested in a serious
answer, and (if it happens to be "no") in explanation how and why the
situation would be different.


Disclaimer: while I consider Emacs a brilliant piece of software and an
(almost) indispensable tool, I do not buy (and oppose) things like the
GNU Manifesto, RMS's philosophy and some FSF actions (like being
secretive about things that should be public imo).  I also use
proprietary software (although not an a daily basis, and if I have
choice, I usually prefer free/open-source software).  OTOH, I also
happen to use software with licenses much less restrictive than GPL.
I also licenced some of my (very humble) contributions to the world's
pool of code with GPL, although seeing some FSF actions and discussions
like this I will definitely seriously reconsider this.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Rasmus]

Hi,

Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes:

> Now Rasmus comes and says:
>
>> I must admit that I feel uncomfortable because you use the name
>> org-mode to promote a product that does not respect the "4 freedoms"
>> as put forth by the FSF.  E.g. if you make mistakes, it may reflect
>> poorly on us, and we won't even be able to fix it or distribute
>> a version that is not broken if we so desired.  That's just /my/
>> personal opinion, though.
>
> which is a very well-thought, delicate way of saying that he doesn't
> like the situation.

> (Personally, I do not 100% agree with Rasmus' opinion, but I can see the
> rationale behind it.)

Fine with me!

Neven, whom I have exchange a couple of private emails with, is free to
distribute his software as he see fit.  What I explicitly quoted as being
uncomfortable was the association between his product with *org-mode*.
Note, the tag-line on Neven's site was something like "org-mode for
Android" up until this discussion.

I'm sure everybody is excited that his program is working with the *org
format*!

> Then others come and say some, ekhm, not-extremely-nice things to
> someone who was definitely not trolling or anything like this.

We should strive to keep the org-list friendly and civilized.

> Let us further assume that he will sell his book in bookstores (it might
> be in ebook form, with or without DRM, or in paper form - never mind, I
> do not know the exact details).  Would he be prohibited from mentioning
> his project (which clearly involves a non-free piece of *software*,
> i.e., the LaTeX source file, and promotes the *result* of executing this
> piece of code) on Emacs mailing list?  I am very interested in a serious
> answer, and (if it happens to be "no") in explanation how and why the
> situation would be different.

First, I don't have strong opinions on this.  However, as I recall there's
a passage on articles vs software in Free as in Freedom 2.0:

    http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-as-in-freedom-2/

Second, there's /nothing/ wrong with charging for e.g. binaries.  A few
Android programs that I use come to mind: Conversations, DAVDroid, OSMAnd,
OwnCloud News (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these; I don't have
iGoogles).

—Rasmus
 
-- 
Together we will make the possible totalllly impossible!

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Mike McLean]

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Orgzly is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest
installing it, or even tell people it exists.

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Subhan Michael Tindall <
SubhanT@familycareinc.org> wrote:

> OK, I love this!
>

Orgzly is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest
installing it, or even tell people it exists.

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Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Scott Randby]

On 01/22/2015 05:02 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> Now the question is: what is the most appropriate place to *inform*
> about his project.  If not the Org-mode discussion list, I really don't
> know.  (I assume that nobody denies his *right* to license his work
> according to his wishes, of course, for if not, another explanation
> would be that this project doesn't have any right to *exist* in the
> first place.)

Since we cannot view the code of this software, then we have no way of 
determining before we use it if it has any purpose other than its stated 
purpose. For all we know, it contains some nasty code that takes over 
your system and deletes all of your files or worse.

To trust this software because the developer seems to have good 
intentions is foolish. When I saw the announcement, I interpreted it as 
saying this: "Gee, here is some neat software I wrote. You can't see the 
code, but trust me, I'm good. I'll open up part of the code maybe 
sometime, but for now you can try it out for free. I'm not going to cut 
you off later and make you pay to continue using this wonderful thing. 
And no, it doesn't do anything bad like steal information or trash 
systems. Trust me." No thanks, I say. Promote this somewhere else.

Scott Randby

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Samuel Wales]

On 1/22/15, Neven <neven@orgzly.com> wrote:
> If you have a problem with that, you can stop
> reading right about now...

opt-out?

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[e.fraga]

On Thursday, 22 Jan 2015 at 23:05, Melleus wrote:
> MobileOrg for Android was abandoned finally, was it?

I have no idea.  However, I use it daily and I hope it continues to work
until I no longer use an Android phone...

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.4.1, Org release_8.3beta-717-gd36bd8

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Rainer M Krug]

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Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com> writes:

> On 01/22/2015 05:02 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>> Now the question is: what is the most appropriate place to *inform*
>> about his project.  If not the Org-mode discussion list, I really don't
>> know.  (I assume that nobody denies his *right* to license his work
>> according to his wishes, of course, for if not, another explanation
>> would be that this project doesn't have any right to *exist* in the
>> first place.)
>
> Since we cannot view the code of this software, then we have no way of
> determining before we use it if it has any purpose other than its
> stated purpose. For all we know, it contains some nasty code that
> takes over your system and deletes all of your files or worse.
>
> To trust this software because the developer seems to have good
> intentions is foolish. When I saw the announcement, I interpreted it
> as saying this: "Gee, here is some neat software I wrote. You can't
> see the code, but trust me, I'm good. I'll open up part of the code
> maybe sometime, but for now you can try it out for free. I'm not going
> to cut you off later and make you pay to continue using this wonderful
> thing. And no, it doesn't do anything bad like steal information or
> trash systems. Trust me." No thanks, I say. Promote this somewhere
> else.

I just want to state here that not everybody feels the same as you.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
> Scott Randby
>
>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Karl Voit]

* Jose E. Marchesi <jemarch@gnu.org> wrote:
>     
>     *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>     will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>     reading right about now...
>
> Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.

I don't like proprietary software. I promote open solutions wherever
I can and accept a more painful living by ignoring comfy proprietary
solutions.

However, I do like to see (maintained) alternatives of MobileOrg and
I do like to see third party tools using the Org syntax for storing
and managing information.

So: Jose, I like what I see on your web page and please do carry on.
Thanks you for making it clear that your software is not open source
and please keep on doing this.

I will probably never use Orgzly by myself because I like open
solutions. I accept that other people might want to have an
easy-to-use closed alternative solution to use Org on their phone.
It's so much better than using Evernote or other cloud-based
solutions.

Thanks for promoting Org!

-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
       > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Scott Randby]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 3:53 AM, Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> wrote:
> Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 01/22/2015 05:02 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>>
>>> Now the question is: what is the most appropriate place to *inform*
>>> about his project.  If not the Org-mode discussion list, I really don't
>>> know.  (I assume that nobody denies his *right* to license his work
>>> according to his wishes, of course, for if not, another explanation
>>> would be that this project doesn't have any right to *exist* in the
>>> first place.)
>>
>> Since we cannot view the code of this software, then we have no way of
>> determining before we use it if it has any purpose other than its
>> stated purpose. For all we know, it contains some nasty code that
>> takes over your system and deletes all of your files or worse.
>>
>> To trust this software because the developer seems to have good
>> intentions is foolish. When I saw the announcement, I interpreted it
>> as saying this: "Gee, here is some neat software I wrote. You can't
>> see the code, but trust me, I'm good. I'll open up part of the code
>> maybe sometime, but for now you can try it out for free. I'm not going
>> to cut you off later and make you pay to continue using this wonderful
>> thing. And no, it doesn't do anything bad like steal information or
>> trash systems. Trust me." No thanks, I say. Promote this somewhere
>> else.
>
> I just want to state here that not everybody feels the same as you.

I wasn't expecting that everybody would feel the way I feel about the
matter. It is clear from the discussion that some feel fine with this
software because it is alleged to do something desireable. I don't
feel fine with it because it is closed, and I have the same distrust
of the other pieces of proprietary software that have been promoted on
this list through the years.

Scott

>
> Cheers,
>
> Rainer
>
>>
>> Scott Randby
>>
>>
>
> --
> Rainer M. Krug
> email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
> PGP: 0x0F52F982

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Greg Troxel]

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Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes:

> On 2015-01-22, at 17:41, Jose E. Marchesi <jemarch@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>>     *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>>     will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>>     reading right about now...
>>
>> Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.
>
> It might be the case that I do not understand something.
>
> AFAIR, there was a recent discussion on another GNU mailing list about
> usability of Emacs under Windows.  (Maybe it was somewhere else, I'm not
> sure, then my question is theoretical.)  A few people claimed that Emacs
> under Windows is fully functional and works well.  Would this also be
> considered "promoting proprietary software"?

The point here is that the FSF is a charitable nonprofit which promotes
free software.  Their servers have usage guidelines:

  https://savannah.gnu.org/register/requirements.php

Basically, helping Free software to work on non-Free operating systems
is ok, as long as the non-Free OS is not the proprietary target and the
software works best (or equal) on Free systems.    Supporting or
advertising non-Free software is not ok.

So the opinions of our hosts are pretty clear.


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Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Greg Troxel]

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Greg Troxel <gdt@ir.bbn.com> writes:

> The point here is that the FSF is a charitable nonprofit which promotes
> free software.  Their servers have usage guidelines:
>
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/register/requirements.php
>
> Basically, helping Free software to work on non-Free operating systems
> is ok, as long as the non-Free OS is not the proprietary target and the

sorry, primary target.  excess ranting leads to word errors :-)

> software works best (or equal) on Free systems.    Supporting or
> advertising non-Free software is not ok.
>
> So the opinions of our hosts are pretty clear.


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Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[John Hendy]

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On Jan 22, 2015 10:13 PM, "Scott Randby" <srandby@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 01/22/2015 05:02 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
>
>> Now the question is: what is the most appropriate place to *inform*
>> about his project.  If not the Org-mode discussion list, I really don't
>> know.  (I assume that nobody denies his *right* to license his work
>> according to his wishes, of course, for if not, another explanation
>> would be that this project doesn't have any right to *exist* in the
>> first place.)
>
>
> Since we cannot view the code of this software, then we have no way of
determining before we use it if it has any purpose other than its stated
purpose. For all we know, it contains some nasty code that takes over your
system and deletes all of your files or worse.
>
> To trust this software because the developer seems to have good
intentions is foolish. When I saw the announcement, I interpreted it as
saying this: "Gee, here is some neat software I wrote. You can't see the
code, but trust me, I'm good. I'll open up part of the code maybe sometime,
but for now you can try it out for free. I'm not going to cut you off later
and make you pay to continue using this wonderful thing. And no, it doesn't
do anything bad like steal information or trash systems. Trust me." No
thanks, I say. Promote this somewhere else.
>

I somewhat get the sentiment, but it *is* on Google Play (granted, beta).
How is that different from other [android closed source] apps? I see the
announcement as relevant: i.e. "I have an app relevant to org mode and
thought I'd let the list devoted to org mode know about it."

Just wanted to express a counter-view. I'm a list member without a 100% no
closed source policy on my phone (and computer for that matter).

John

> Scott Randby
>

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Discussion of non-free-as-defined-by-FSF software (was: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly))

[Marcin Borkowski]

*NOTE* This email contains a strong opinion about a certain three-letter
organization.  If you have a problem with that, you can stop reading
right about now.  ;-)



On 2015-01-23, at 20:18, Greg Troxel <gdt@ir.bbn.com> wrote:

> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes:
>
>> On 2015-01-22, at 17:41, Jose E. Marchesi <jemarch@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>>>     *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
>>>     will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
>>>     reading right about now...
>>>
>>> Please stop using the GNU mailing lists to promote proprietary software.
>>
>> It might be the case that I do not understand something.
>>
>> AFAIR, there was a recent discussion on another GNU mailing list about
>> usability of Emacs under Windows.  (Maybe it was somewhere else, I'm not
>> sure, then my question is theoretical.)  A few people claimed that Emacs
>> under Windows is fully functional and works well.  Would this also be
>> considered "promoting proprietary software"?
>
> The point here is that the FSF is a charitable nonprofit which promotes
> free software.  Their servers have usage guidelines:
>
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/register/requirements.php
>
> Basically, helping Free software to work on non-Free operating systems
> is ok, as long as the non-Free OS is not the proprietary target and the
> software works best (or equal) on Free systems.    Supporting or
> advertising non-Free software is not ok.
>
> So the opinions of our hosts are pretty clear.

1. I see, it is indeed pretty clear.  I did not know that, and I am
thankful that you pointed it out.  (In particular, this seems to more or
less answer my questions.)  Incidentally, it makes me satisfied that
I decided not to sign the FSF copyright papers: I do not want to be
formally involved in any way with this organization (for instance, I do
not want them to have any piece of paper with my personal signature, nor
would I buy any book from them knowing that this way I would support
them with my money).

2. I would also prefer people here to express information about the
rules which might not be known to e.g. anybody who learned about list
from the Org-mode site and did not want to spend time on the FSF website
with similarly factual way as you (and let me make this very clear:
I again thank you for that, even if we do disagree), not with hostility
toward a person who (like me, and apparently other people) does not
treat software as religion and does not consider non-free (as defined by
RMS) software necessary immoral.  (And that's good for me, personally:
if I were to treat software as religion, I might consider switching to
Vim at this very moment, and it would be a nuisance, since I both am not
accustomed to it and consider it technically inferior to Emacs.  The
current situation also makes me uncomfortable: I did recommend Emacs to
many people, sometimes successfully, and from now on I'm going to
consider it my moral obligation to state clearly that when advertising
Emacs, I do not endorse any opinions of RMS or FSF – indeed, I would
rather warn people not to listen to them, or rather: to listen to them
while carefully judging what they hear.)

3. I would like to know where on the Internet I could discuss
Org-related topics in a free (“free as in freedom”, to quote RMS once
again) way, since clearly (and ironically, I'm inclined to add) this is
not possible on any mailing list hosted by the FSF.  Please note: I do
not consider freedom of speech an absolute value, and I do not consider
censorship necessarily immoral.  My criticism of the FSF is not that
they effectively endorse censorship of some kind; I'm fine with that, it
is their servers after all, they are the hosts and they write the rules.
(Although I find it a bit hypocritical that at the same time they
apparently deny programmers the somehow analogous right to license the
code they wrote using some non-FSF-approved license.)  My problem with
the FSF is that they represent and spread false moral views, and this is
something harmful.  (Even though I *do* agree with the FSF about many
things, e.g., many of the remarks on their "words to avoid" page are
definitely worth spreading.  OTOH, I am not convinced that free software
is necessarily the right answer to the problem they fight).

Regards,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2015-01-22, at 23:46, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Fine with me!
>
> Neven, whom I have exchange a couple of private emails with, is free to
> distribute his software as he see fit.  What I explicitly quoted as being
> uncomfortable was the association between his product with *org-mode*.
> Note, the tag-line on Neven's site was something like "org-mode for
> Android" up until this discussion.

Did not know that; sorry for not doing my homework.  Of course, calling
this "org-mode for Android" or similarly *is* unacceptable, for obvious
reasons.

> I'm sure everybody is excited that his program is working with the *org
> format*!

Apparently, not everybody.  But not everybody has to, of course.

>> Then others come and say some, ekhm, not-extremely-nice things to
>> someone who was definitely not trolling or anything like this.
>
> We should strive to keep the org-list friendly and civilized.

That's what I'm saying (see also my response to the Greg's email).

>> Let us further assume that he will sell his book in bookstores (it might
>> be in ebook form, with or without DRM, or in paper form - never mind, I
>> do not know the exact details).  Would he be prohibited from mentioning
>> his project (which clearly involves a non-free piece of *software*,
>> i.e., the LaTeX source file, and promotes the *result* of executing this
>> piece of code) on Emacs mailing list?  I am very interested in a serious
>> answer, and (if it happens to be "no") in explanation how and why the
>> situation would be different.
>
> First, I don't have strong opinions on this.  However, as I recall there's
> a passage on articles vs software in Free as in Freedom 2.0:
>
>     http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-as-in-freedom-2/

TL;DR, sorry - it is several hundred pages long, and I have a huge
backlog of books (technical, non-fiction and fiction).  I might add this
to the list.

> —Rasmus

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2015-01-23, at 10:56, Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> wrote:

> I don't like proprietary software. I promote open solutions wherever
> I can and accept a more painful living by ignoring comfy proprietary
> solutions.

+1, the same with me.  Although I do use some non-free-as-defined-by-FSF
software.  (Apparently, to be fully FSF-compliant you shouldn't say
"open".  Assuming that you *want* to be FSF-compliant, that is;-).  BTW:
from now on I'm going to use the terms: "free-as-defined-by-FSF" and its
negation, because I do not want to borrow terms from an entity whose
philosophy I do oppose.)

> However, I do like to see (maintained) alternatives of MobileOrg and
> I do like to see third party tools using the Org syntax for storing
> and managing information.

+1

> So: Jose, I like what I see on your web page and please do carry on.
      ^^^^ Neven, not Jose!
> Thanks you for making it clear that your software is not open source
> and please keep on doing this.

+1 again.

> I will probably never use Orgzly by myself because I like open
> solutions. I accept that other people might want to have an
> easy-to-use closed alternative solution to use Org on their phone.
> It's so much better than using Evernote or other cloud-based
> solutions.

I might want to use Orgzly.  (I do use Evernote occasionally, btw; yes,
it is terrible.)

BTW, one more question: what about all the emails about dropbox-based
syncing of Emacs config or Org files?  Why didn't they get banned?  All
are equal, but some are more equal than others?

> Thanks for promoting Org!

+1!

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2015-01-23, at 03:59, Mike McLean <mike.mclean@pobox.com> wrote:

> Orgzly is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest
> installing it, or even tell people it exists.

I appreciate you telling me what I should not install on my, as they
call it, "personal computer", or what I should not tell other people
about.

(I *would* agree with you, btw, if (a) you added "on this mailing list",
as I explained in an earlier email, *or* if (b) installing or using
non-free-as-defined-by-FSF software would be something immoral.)

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Thomas Koch]

On Thursday 22 January 2015 12:33:12 Neven wrote:
> *NOTE* It's about an app which is *not* open source (some parts of code
> will opened, see below).  If you have a problem with that, you can stop
> reading right about now...
 
>   http://www.orgzly.com/

Hi Neven,

I tried Orgzly today on my work phone (which is 100% proprietary anyways). I 
love it.

It is just not really an option for trusting important data to it if it is 
closed source.

Back in December 2015 you planned to release Orgzly as free software in "Q2 
2016":
https://plus.google.com/112212983680346701286/posts/hGnkkxDsUjT

I would be happy to help you work out any blockers that hinders you from 
releasing the source code. Several people told you that they would be happy to 
sponsor your ongoing work on Orgzly and I would so too. If you think your code 
is not ready yet to be seen by others, don't think so. It will never be ready.

It would be a shame if all your great work could not be appreciated by a 
larger audience.

We might want to continue this conversation in the google group, but maybe 
some other orgmode users want to express their ongoing interest in a free 
software version of Orgzly.

Regards,

Thomas

Re: [ANN] [OT] New Android app (Orgzly)

[Stefan Huchler]

Thomas Koch <thomas@koch.ro> writes:

> I would be happy to help you work out any blockers that hinders you from 
> releasing the source code. Several people told you that they would be happy to 
> sponsor your ongoing work on Orgzly and I would so too. If you think your code 
> is not ready yet to be seen by others, don't think so. It will never be ready.
>
> It would be a shame if all your great work could not be appreciated by a 
> larger audience.

Really people use proprietary lisenses to hide their code quality? I
find that hard to belive. Software is never done (at least thats true
for free software) if nobody enhances/refactors it anymore there is just
no real need for it anymore.

So of course you should release early (in a bad state) and often. As
long it dont makes the pc of others explode or eats their fs.

You get then feedback as return and in this case even some money, at
least you get more users for shure.

But we did see in the past that some companies used the statement that
they wanna open it up as trick to make some people buy it and use it and
vendor lockin into it.

I dont wanna be a dick or be not constructive, but it becomes harder
to belive that you meant what you said about your intentions to release
it less day by day.

Well I dont care much anymore, had some owncloud / simpletask cloudness
solution setup, which was at least good enough to see todo lists on
android, but at the moment thats not so much of a priority of me to have
at all.

But sorry there might be other reasons like no time or something, but
hiding bad code is no real reason at best a excuse to not release source
code. Sorry I dont buy that.

Its just a bit funny people that use emacs will be 90% very sensitive
about the lisense/code question. So I cant even imagine that it makes
much sense moneywise to make it impossible for 90% of your users to use
that software.

I get that argument by other software targeted to the avarage user, but
in this case its just a loose-loose situation.