From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:14:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10243"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 18:21:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpaUD-0002XH-QJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:21:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35124 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpaUC-0007gj-PM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:21:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44786) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpaNP-0007jE-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:14:12 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::333]:51116) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpaNN-0006uM-Pc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:14:11 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id 190so3090994wmz.0 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:14:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VVFyvUAX/c5C3snWD5CDPIs2WSASekSoJBllm86E17s=; b=MTV5yoxJ/4hrtmPOn64yFN9DQUt10t6l/WIsfWZXqsSZgJwol3xOWePFGH5zd4sAey QcxXEjCPQd1uJsVs88oGgmgvvuSqdbXYxin4zVlOHF5jewOZpFCEfTa90EybIJJblvaI j4ZCZVgARKEPci2byMyE3SMUUMKK+evo0HqQOpS5gJ/f7UfJQCpFr+Bd3PghTw7SAXUw QoHTgX/nElZrtCNSwPfBVN8jWjDsgDPYCMKFc72OnKlx7ibGHC0TORtX3GRS2TuZddT0 x6pRQ1TFM/QQMEq67OJncWdpEGEBeavC9UWxOHdK8WueSUXA+2GL+MNw6paBRE/+znPe csxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VVFyvUAX/c5C3snWD5CDPIs2WSASekSoJBllm86E17s=; b=p5d/Q9FU9jcLsLT0wbhuDiNiZN75tCbMxtOGYKDSlas3I9jfuQc5ALVxV73hMmWMIK O6hS7kKpb1k9HD9H7f+4O6qsE4DnJgmTE9bO1zk8v82TZ+5KFgnN4iw18qdanrwb1Sq7 LJggVBLKFrfT5JdNLThhTpSBjBahKdHsAMqgvbED5WcKpeAVck524q5upzrJjZXD6Teu kn1V+sqcNAg9f4/YKWWhH2ClWO4nJUWLmZ4KhtqKPeMpy/OpBWuoyrr570KD6BFIDjT4 PLXlNxYHKgbWEp7CZv92XA/ij9uZOgMJdjzyVBawx5epIMjPgziDNJwJqF86i/4XM8BE sRuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531AEUXl0VJSkI67MG92hJnoCtk6z8W108m1tjfDdtAq+1daOFWX H8CwaOpp+/9ErHSurkB4xkq0MORDR/FELQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTeizY8Htk8VJRgYk7Ppge5TQvCsyAzFiMIyr1PkPU95kpprYT5395lLbzbtQV7dNz6zqTTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:e0d4:: with SMTP id x203mr4462793wmg.68.1608138847908; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:14:07 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z13sm7116896wmz.3.2020.12.16.09.14.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:14:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::333; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x333.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261019 Archived-At: On 16.12.2020 11:24, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> I also think the poll is heavily biased in favor of either Reddit >> users (who are largely either power-users, or those who inspire to >> be), or experienced Emacs users in general. > > My impression is that that's not accurate -- there's certainly > experienced people who hang out on the Emacs Reddit group, but there's > also a lot of new users. (And my guess is that the latter group is > larger, based on the questions I see asked there.) New users ask questions more often than the more experienced ones. There are 50K subscribers to r/emacs and 300 people online just now. Clearly, people asking questions are a minority. > In the mega-thread about modernising Emacs, the common refrain was that > we needed actual data on what users do. We now have some data, and I > don't think we should just dismiss that data because of statistical > quibbles. The question is how to contextualize the data and what to do about it. I agree that the toolbars we have are probably less useful than they could be. > I mean, look at the toolbar that happens when you "emacs -Q": You get an > Emacs with a scratch buffer... with a "Save" icon. In a buffer that > can't be saved. That's how much attention we've spent on toolbars in > two decades. Well, it actually can be saved, as soon as you type something (C-x C-s works), and it's one of the real usage patterns. The button doesn't indicate that, though. But OTOH we have other buttons (New file, Open, Undo, Cut and Paste) that a lot of users expect from a text editor. > All the items in the *scratch* buffer toolbar are more natural for a > menu, and they're already present there. Maybe you're right. I checked back, and most contemporary text editors don't have a toolbar like we do. Atom/Sublime/VS Code don't have this kind of editor toolbar. IDEA only has specialized toolbars for, like, debugging. The recent versions of Kate (KDE editor) also seem to have removed it. GNOME Builder only has a small number of buttons, and they are on the title bar. Geany still has a toolbar, though. Even MS Word, while it has a toolbar for certain features, has moved the basic edit buttons to the window titlebar and made them pretty small.