A new filter-based customization interface

A new filter-based customization interface

[Moakt Temporary Email]

Hi everyone,

I am proposing a new beginner-friendly customization interface, which would make emacs more attractive for newcomers, be it actual developers, future developers to be, and even non-developers (writers, students, professors, teachers, etc.), and any lambda person having interest in using emacs.

I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which is better than words).
https://justpaste.it/fdau4.

The main idea of this customization interface is to help users quickly and easily customize emacs for the actual task(s) they need, by providing familiar filters so they can quickly select and access the relevant customizations.

For example, they can select “irc”, “ide”, “agenda”, “completion”, “version control”, “c++”, etc, to filter the customizations relevant to use emacs as an IRC client, IDE, etc.

Today this not possible, and would require new users days and weeks to configure emacs, which would discourage and thus discard lot of them from using emacs.

Do you think this is something achievable in emacs ?
Do you think the actual customization interface can be enhanced to include these changes ? Or should it be a new separate interface ?

I have added all the details about this idea here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-12/msg00174.html
(It is too long to read, that is why I am sending this separate message).

Thank you

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Philip Kaludercic]

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Moakt Temporary Email <emacs-devel-proposal@drmail.in> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am proposing a new beginner-friendly customization interface, which
> would make emacs more attractive for newcomers, be it actual
> developers, future developers to be, and even non-developers (writers,
> students, professors, teachers, etc.), and any lambda person having
> interest in using emacs.
>
> I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which is better than words).
> https://justpaste.it/fdau4.

As this site is rather slow, here is the same image attached to this
message:


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[-- Type: image/png, Size: 334041 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 1701 bytes --]


> The main idea of this customization interface is to help users quickly
> and easily customize emacs for the actual task(s) they need, by
> providing familiar filters so they can quickly select and access the
> relevant customizations.
>
> For example, they can select “irc”, “ide”, “agenda”, “completion”,
> “version control”, “c++”, etc, to filter the customizations relevant
> to use emacs as an IRC client, IDE, etc.

My question is how this is worse or better than having some kind of
attributes added to user options and then having a
`customise-group'-like command that presents all suggested "irc", "ide",
"agenda", ... options.

But generally speaking, it seems that beginners are not interested in
being overburdened with all the things they can decide on (even if this
is categorised), but rather to have as many thing as possible to DTRT OOTB.

> Today this not possible, and would require new users days and weeks to configure emacs, which would discourage and thus discard lot of them from using emacs.
>
> Do you think this is something achievable in emacs ?
> Do you think the actual customization interface can be enhanced to include these changes ? Or should it be a new separate interface ?

I tend to feel that it would be better to have a separate UI with fewer
choices (beginners are probably not /that/ interested in the differences
between saving something for this session or permanently, I'd think?).

> I have added all the details about this idea here:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-12/msg00174.html
> (It is too long to read, that is why I am sending this separate message).
>
> Thank you

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I looked at the image you sent.  I supposed it is supposed to be
self-explanatory, but as often happens for graphical interfaces, I
can't tell the meaning of what I see.


In order for a graphica interface to be natural and self-evident,
it should to be clear just by looking what each visual item means.
Is it an alternative you can select?
Is it a heading which describes the role of whatever follows?
Is it a command you can click on to control the interface?
These things are not clear to me.

Here are some of the visuak aspects for which the meaning is not clear to me.

* There is a bunch of lines at the top which start with
    Filter by
    1. categoryL 
    interfaceL modeline tookbar,..
    general: startup quit backup...

What do tese names mean?  Are they related to custom group names?
Some of them sare names of custom groups, but some are not.
What does each of these names mean?

* Is that an exhaustive list of all "categories"?
* If so, are you supposed to click on one to select it?
* Or are some categories someho selexted now, and this is a list of the
ones that are selected right now?

* How does the fact that a category is selected
affect what happens in the rest of this display?

The next thing it says is

  Sort by: package

What does that mean?  Is "package" one of several psople choices?  If
so, what are the other possible choices and how do you specify another choice?

Then it says

  Selected Customizations:

What does that expression "selected customizations" mean?  What
determines which customizations are selected?  How do you control
which ones are selected?  And what do you achieve by controlling that?

How does this relate to M-x customize...?
It looks like the names of these things do NOT match names of user options.

Each item and value seem to be followed by some sort of classification,
but what do they mean?  They do not seem to be custom groups.
Where are they defined?  For instance, two say :modeline:,  What does
that indicate?

What does [X] mean?  Does it mean "this is enabled"?
If so, what indicates "this is not enabled"?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Moakt Temporary Email]

Hi Richard,


> I looked at the image you sent.  I supposed it is supposed to be
> self-explanatory, but as often happens for graphical interfaces, I
> can't tell the meaning of what I see.
> 
> 
> In order for a graphica interface to be natural and self-evident,
> it should to be clear just by looking what each visual item means.
> Is it an alternative you can select?
> Is it a heading which describes the role of whatever follows?
> Is it a command you can click on to control the interface?
> These things are not clear to me.
> 
> Here are some of the visuak aspects for which the meaning is not clear to me.
> 
> * There is a bunch of lines at the top which start with
>     Filter by
>     1. categoryL 
>     interfaceL modeline tookbar,..
>     general: startup quit backup...
> 
> What do tese names mean?  Are they related to custom group names?
> Some of them sare names of custom groups, but some are not.
> What does each of these names mean?


Each name is a filter that user can select to filter on the corresponding user options. I tried to classify them using the most beginner-friendly terms, just to show the main idea I want yo communicate.

When the user sees such an interface, he will also have a quick idea of what he can do with emacs, he can also immediately start discovering/trying different options.


> * Is that an exhaustive list of all "categories"?


I added only some, just to show the main idea.

I can also think about other non-”by category” filters, for example:
1. by state: [customized] [non-customized (default)]
2. by version: .. [27] [28] [29] [to be removed in future versions (deprecated)]


> * If so, are you supposed to click on one to select it?
> * Or are some categories someho selexted now, and this is a list of the
> ones that are selected right now?


Yes, user can select a single filter, or combine (AND) multiple filters.
For example user can select “completion”+”auto-save”.

Each time the user select an additional filter, the list of filters should decrease, leaving only the ones that are meaningful to additionally select.

And maybe also making other sub-filters (sub-categories) appear to help further narrowing the list of customizations (under “Selected Customizations:”).
For example “auto-completion” filter can appear if “completion” filter is selected.

With this, user can precisely find what he is exactly looking for, with few easy and understandable clicks, even with a huge number of options.


> * How does the fact that a category is selected
> affect what happens in the rest of this display?


Each time the user select an additional filter, the list of customizations under “Selected Customizations:” will also decrease. The purpose is to quickly find the customizations relevant to a given task/behavior.


> The next thing it says is
> 
>   Sort by: package
> 
> What does that mean?  Is "package" one of several psople choices?  If
> so, what are the other possible choices and how do you specify another choice?


This should sort the list of customizations (under “Selected Customizations:”) by certain criteria. One example is “package”, another can be to list the already customized (non-default) first, etc.

I added it only to keep it in mind when implementing the interface, in case it turned out to be useful to the user later on. But I can’t see it is real added value for the moment.


> Then it says
> 
>   Selected Customizations:
> 
> What does that expression "selected customizations" mean?  What
> determines which customizations are selected?  How do you control
> which ones are selected?  And what do you achieve by controlling that?


The list under "Selected Customizations", are the customizations user selected by applying one or more filter(s) from the above.

Their is no filter selected in this image, but we can image that when user selects the “modeline” filter for example, we can either:
- replace it in-place by a “modeline[X]”.
- or remove it, and add a “modeline” or “modeline[X]” to a separate list of “selected filters” for example.
- or keep it in place, but change its appearance (color, etc…)
- etc.

With this, user can know what filters he already selected, and can unselected them one by one by clicking on them again.

Maybe it can also be implemented it differently.


> How does this relate to M-x customize...?
> It looks like the names of these things do NOT match names of user options.
> 
> Each item and value seem to be followed by some sort of classification,
> but what do they mean?  They do not seem to be custom groups.
> Where are they defined?  For instance, two say :modeline:,  What does
> that indicate?


Each item is a customization/option to show to the user.

The value is only a single choice (I added it for demonstration), but it can be replaced by its corresponding UI element (checkbox, dropdown menu, ...)

The classifications to the right are not part of the interface. I may have hidden them. I used them to “tag”/relate each entry to its corresponding filters/categories. These classifications are also not exhaustive (only some for demonstration).

All the options that are related to the modeline, would be tagged as “modeline”, and will be selected/filtered when user select the “modeline” filter.

Some classifications might (not) match with the actual custom groups, I tried to list them from another POV. they can be modified/adapted as needed.

This interface will require each option to have multiple groups/tags.

And maybe the user could be given the possibility to add his own tags (to each option, and to the interface), so he can categories, and quickly access his favorite options.

> What does [X] mean?  Does it mean "this is enabled"?

Yes, it represents a “checked” checkbox.


> If so, what indicates "this is not enabled"?
An “unchecked” checkbox would be represented by [ ].
But this is not how it might look like in the final interface, it is only for demonstration.
I also explained everything in details in this message https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-12/msg00174.html.

I also proposed a quick “Get Started” introduction to emacs (frame, window, modeline, command, etc.), so user can directly use this interface.
This introduction can be added to emacs independently from the interface, because it already enhances user first experience with emacs, I post it under a different thread https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-12/msg00064.html.

Thank you

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which
  > is better than words).  https://justpaste.it/fdau4.

That site seems to depend on nonfree Javascript code.  Those of us who
block nonfree Javascript. or block Javascript entirely, cannot see
whatever you meant to show us.

Even worse, there are people on the lis who do not block nonfree
Javascript in their browsers.  By referring to that site, you are
promoting the use of nonfree software!  And, in the process,
legitimizing the use and distrbution of nonfree software -- which is
the direct opposite of the goal of GNU.

Would you please describe or present your idea in a way that we can
understand without running nonfree software?  Then we could all think
about adding it to Emacs.

Emacs already has a general configuration interface, which you can
access using M-x configure.  It at least tries to do what you have in
mind.  Your approach, if implemented without nonfree software,
might be better in some ways.

Would you like to familiarize yourself with M-x configure and related
commands, see what it does and what it doesn't do, and describe
your idea in terms of how it differs from what we already have?

Do the differences concern manner of display, or the semantics
of the customization methods?

M-x configure displays through Emacs buffers and Emacs redisplay
because that is the facility that is always avaiable (in Emacs).
Using some other basis could look nicer, but would be a lot more work
to implement and to maintain in various situations.

However, different semantics might not have such an obstacle.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Björn Bidar]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which
>   > is better than words).  https://justpaste.it/fdau4.
>
> That site seems to depend on nonfree Javascript code.  Those of us who
> block nonfree Javascript. or block Javascript entirely, cannot see
> whatever you meant to show us.

The website works entirely without JavaScript.
But there you go:
https://jpcdn.it/img/bde00610157f1ad327d8d066d5bc1744.png

> Even worse, there are people on the lis who do not block nonfree
> Javascript in their browsers.  By referring to that site, you are
> promoting the use of nonfree software!  And, in the process,
> legitimizing the use and distrbution of nonfree software -- which is
> the direct opposite of the goal of GNU.

People promote non-free software all the on this list e.g. with
@gmail in their addresses or talk about non-free operating systems.
There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.

> Would you please describe or present your idea in a way that we can
> understand without running nonfree software?  Then we could all think
> about adding it to Emacs.

Emails allow for attachments.

> Emacs already has a general configuration interface, which you can
> access using M-x configure.  It at least tries to do what you have in
> mind.  Your approach, if implemented without nonfree software,
> might be better in some ways.

> Would you like to familiarize yourself with M-x configure and related
> commands, see what it does and what it doesn't do, and describe
> your idea in terms of how it differs from what we already have?
>
> Do the differences concern manner of display, or the semantics
> of the customization methods?


The configure interface looks at times very old. I.e. in context of the
search it is very hard to see what the results actually are yes it does
show categories and settings items but it doesn't not show where they
are from e.g. as in which catergory a item is from or what tags it could
have.
I'm aware that Custom doesn't track tags but it is expected that most
system do use them or at least understand them for searching.

> M-x configure displays through Emacs buffers and Emacs redisplay
> because that is the facility that is always avaiable (in Emacs).
> Using some other basis could look nicer, but would be a lot more work
> to implement and to maintain in various situations.

The problem isn't eye-candy, functionality is the problem, e.g. in
discoverability. Improvements would help mostly beginner level users but
also long term users could benefit.
It does not help either that Emacs is not responding while searching.

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which
  > >   > is better than words).  https://justpaste.it/fdau4.
  > >
  > > That site seems to depend on nonfree Javascript code.  Those of us who
  > > block nonfree Javascript. or block Javascript entirely, cannot see
  > > whatever you meant to show us.

  > The website works entirely without JavaScript.

I just tried it again and verified that LibreJS reported blocked scripts.
(They are blocked for not being labeled with a free liecense.

  > But there you go:
  > https://jpcdn.it/img/bde00610157f1ad327d8d066d5bc1744.png

Thank you, I will now look at that...

[viewed it]

This image looks similar to an image that I saw a few days ago in
another email.  I found its meaning unclear, and reported how so.

  > The configure interface looks at times very old. I.e. in context of the
  > search it is very hard to see what the results actually are

I agree.  It could definitely use improvement, and your idea may have
potential for that -- if you explain it more concretely.

                                                              yes it does
  > show categories and settings items but it doesn't not show where they
  > are from e.g. as in which catergory a item is from

Could you show one example of that deficiency, and point out precisely
where it is and say what is missing?  With that help, I would understand
what you mean.

Since the customization buffer contains ordinary text, you can copy it
into an email -- avoiding the inconvenience of image files.

                                                       or what tags it could
  > have.

Could you explain what you mean my "tags"?  I am mot sure.

If you use the same example, pick one option, and say what
the missing tags would say, I might understand your idea.

  > It does not help either that Emacs is not responding while searching.

Could yoi explain more concretely what operation you mean here?
What is the command for searching which fails to respond?

If you use the same example, and say (as in the Emacs manua) exectly
what you type to do the sort of search that is nonresponsive,
it will be completely clear.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Even worse, there are people on the lis who do not block nonfree
  > > Javascript in their browsers.  By referring to that site, you are
  > > promoting the use of nonfree software!  And, in the process,
  > > legitimizing the use and distrbution of nonfree software -- which is
  > > the direct opposite of the goal of GNU.

  > People promote non-free software all the on this list e.g. with
  > @gmail in their addresses or talk about non-free operating systems.
  > There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.

I think we are miscommunicating.  Promoting nonfree software, in the
GNU Project, is much more specific than you envision.  It means urging
users to do something (now, or later) in a way that involves _their_
running nonfree software.  If you tell people to look at that page on
https://justpaste.it/, you're directing _them_ to run its nonfree
Javascript code.

Just talking about some nonfree software is not promoting it unless
you encourage or direct people to use it.  For instance, mentioning
Windows or MacOS as part of making GNU Emacs run on them, or saying
that it does, is not promoting those systems.  Sending mail that says
it is from gmail doesn't direct other people to use gmail -- they can
receive that message using any email facility.

Please read the node References in the GNU Coding Standards for
explanation of this concept.  With that explanation you'll understand
what this issue is about.

  > There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.

That _might_ be promoting nonfree software, or might not, depending on
details of what that package does.  Perhaos it mainly encourages
people who use that nonfree software to use Emacs with it.  That is a
good thing to do.

I would like to take a look at it and see what it does.
What is its name?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Madhu]

* Richard Stallman <E1tQfWS-0001AV-O9@fencepost.gnu.org> :
Wrote on Wed, 25 Dec 2024 23:30:56 -0500:

[??? wrote]
>   > People promote non-free software all the on this list e.g. with
>   > @gmail in their addresses or talk about non-free operating systems.
>   > There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.
>
> I think we are miscommunicating.  Promoting nonfree software, in the
> GNU Project, is much more specific than you envision.  It means urging
> users to do something (now, or later) in a way that involves _their_
> running nonfree software.  If you tell people to look at that page on
> https://justpaste.it/, you're directing _them_ to run its nonfree
> Javascript code.
>
> Just talking about some nonfree software is not promoting it unless
> you encourage or direct people to use it.  For instance, mentioning
> Windows or MacOS as part of making GNU Emacs run on them, or saying
> that it does, is not promoting those systems.  Sending mail that says
> it is from gmail doesn't direct other people to use gmail -- they can
> receive that message using any email facility.

On the other hand sending mail to any gmail user compels that user to
use non-free software and entrench them in non-free bondage.  This may
not not be an issue for GNU as an organization it should prick the
conscience of any one who is actually in communication with gmail users,
and promoting their stumbling.



---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Jean Louis]

* Madhu <enometh@meer.net> [2024-12-27 09:12]:
> On the other hand sending mail to any gmail user compels that user to
> use non-free software and entrench them in non-free bondage.  This may
> not not be an issue for GNU as an organization it should prick the
> conscience of any one who is actually in communication with gmail users,
> and promoting their stumbling.

I am aware of it. That is why:

- in our team we use our XMPP network;

- in our team, we use our e-mail addresses and domains; running on
  fully free software;

- we enlighten each staff member to understand what is free software;

For friends and family, clients, I can always send them link how to
get their own free email address.

Sure! Here's the text with an emoji:

Remember, you can always do something about it! 😊

Jean Louis

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[dick.r.chiang]

Madhu,

Your sentiments are well received.  We must always strive to uphold
software freedom while being mindful of hidden but insidious pitfalls.
Merry Christmas to one and all, and may the light of freedom shine on
all who seek its embrace.

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Joel Reicher]

Madhu <enometh@meer.net> writes:

> * Richard Stallman <E1tQfWS-0001AV-O9@fencepost.gnu.org> :

[...]

>> Just talking about some nonfree software is not promoting it 
>> unless you encourage or direct people to use it.  For instance, 
>> mentioning Windows or MacOS as part of making GNU Emacs run on 
>> them, or saying that it does, is not promoting those systems. 
>> Sending mail that says it is from gmail doesn't direct other 
>> people to use gmail -- they can receive that message using any 
>> email facility.
>
> On the other hand sending mail to any gmail user compels that 
> user to use non-free software and entrench them in non-free 
> bondage.  This may not not be an issue for GNU as an 
> organization it should prick the conscience of any one who is 
> actually in communication with gmail users, and promoting their 
> stumbling.

The user you're sending to is *already* a gmail user. By all means 
you can take it upon yourself to make sure they understand the 
consequences of the choice they have already made, but the mere 
act of sending to that existing address does not make things 
better or worse (although the contents of the email might).

Regards,

        - Joel

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Björn Bidar]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > >   > I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which
>   > >   > is better than words).  https://justpaste.it/fdau4.
>   > >
>   > > That site seems to depend on nonfree Javascript code.  Those of us who
>   > > block nonfree Javascript. or block Javascript entirely, cannot see
>   > > whatever you meant to show us.
>
>   > The website works entirely without JavaScript.
>
> I just tried it again and verified that LibreJS reported blocked scripts.
> (They are blocked for not being labeled with a free liecense.
>

The website loads without JS if you encounter such an issue try loading
without JS. Why do you keep talking about the JavaScript which you don't
like to load?

>   > But there you go:
>   > https://jpcdn.it/img/bde00610157f1ad327d8d066d5bc1744.png
>
> Thank you, I will now look at that...
>
> [viewed it]
>
> This image looks similar to an image that I saw a few days ago in
> another email.  I found its meaning unclear, and reported how so.
>
>   > The configure interface looks at times very old. I.e. in context of the
>   > search it is very hard to see what the results actually are
>
> I agree.  It could definitely use improvement, and your idea may have
> potential for that -- if you explain it more concretely.
>
>                                                               yes it does
>   > show categories and settings items but it doesn't not show where they
>   > are from e.g. as in which catergory a item is from
>
> Could you show one example of that deficiency, and point out precisely
> where it is and say what is missing?  With that help, I would understand
> what you mean.
>

As stated item i.e. customization options don't contain context from
where .i.e which group they are from. Just compare the mockup posted by
the op and the output of customizes search function.

> Since the customization buffer contains ordinary text, you can copy it
> into an email -- avoiding the inconvenience of image files.

The does not preserve the exact output of the person reporting an issue.
For issues which are partially or mostly visual in nature ordinary text
is not an option that's why markup or image files exist.


>                                                       or what tags it could
>   > have.
>
> Could you explain what you mean my "tags"?  I am mot sure.

Tags are just plain the meaning of the word English word tag, not
confused with Tag the German word for day. E.g. The group Gnus
could have the tag news, mail or rss.

> If you use the same example, pick one option, and say what
> the missing tags would say, I might understand your idea.

Customs search doesn't use tags which is what I wated to point out.

>   > It does not help either that Emacs is not responding while searching.
>
> Could yoi explain more concretely what operation you mean here?
> What is the command for searching which fails to respond?
>
> If you use the same example, and say (as in the Emacs manua) exectly
> what you type to do the sort of search that is nonresponsive,
> it will be completely clear.

Emacs does not respond to user input while searching.
So for example the user opens custom, enters a word and presses search.

RE: [External] : Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Drew Adams]

(Caveat: I'm not following this thread.)

> As stated item i.e. customization options don't contain context from
> where .i.e which group they are from. Just compare the mockup posted by
> the op and the output of customizes search function.

Not sure what you mean.

A `customize-option' buffer does have, as its
last line, a list of its custom `Groups:', and
the group names are links to `customize-group'.

OTOT, it's true that `C-h v' for an option
doesn't say which custom groups the option
belongs to.  Perhaps that info should be
provided there.
 
> Customs search doesn't use tags which is what I wated to point out.

True.  And Emacs itself doesn't provide tags as
a _general_ feature, AFAIK.  IIUC, you can use
tags with Org and with Gnus, but those tags are
Org- and Gnus-specific.  (I don't use Gnus, and
I don't use Org much, so I can't speak with any
authority about their tags.)

The most generally usable tags, AFAIK, are the
bookmark tags you can create with Bookmark+.
Very general and flexible.  Since you can, in
effect, bookmark pretty much anything, you can
pretty much tag anything.

You can of course search for things using their
tags.  In particular, you can search for complex
combinations of tags (Boolean combinations of
tag-name or tag-value matches for patterns,
including regexps, etc.)

But yeah, you need to bookmark something to tag
it, and you use bookmark commands etc. to make
use of the tags.  So this too is not a completely
generally tag facility.

Bookmark tags define bookmark sets. A bookmark
can have any number of tags, and multiple bookmarks
can have the same tag.  You can sort, show/hide,
or mark bookmarks based on their tags.

Bookmark tags can be more than just names. They
can be full-fledged user-defined attributes, with
EmacsLisp objects as their values.

It would be possible to bookmark, and thus tag,
*Customize* buffers or *Help* buffers for user
options.
___


If interested, see here:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#BookmarkTags

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#BookmarkTagSets

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#TaggingFiles

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#BookmarkFilesForBookmarkswithSpecificTags

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#TagCommandsAndKeys


https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BookmarkPlus#TagsAsAttributes


> 
> >   > It does not help either that Emacs is not responding while
> searching.
> >
> > Could yoi explain more concretely what operation you mean here?
> > What is the command for searching which fails to respond?
> >
> > If you use the same example, and say (as in the Emacs manua) exectly
> > what you type to do the sort of search that is nonresponsive,
> > it will be completely clear.
> 
> Emacs does not respond to user input while searching.
> So for example the user opens custom, enters a word and presses search.

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Björn Bidar]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > Even worse, there are people on the lis who do not block nonfree
>   > > Javascript in their browsers.  By referring to that site, you are
>   > > promoting the use of nonfree software!  And, in the process,
>   > > legitimizing the use and distrbution of nonfree software -- which is
>   > > the direct opposite of the goal of GNU.
>
>   > People promote non-free software all the on this list e.g. with
>   > @gmail in their addresses or talk about non-free operating systems.
>   > There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.
>
> I think we are miscommunicating.  Promoting nonfree software, in the
> GNU Project, is much more specific than you envision.  It means urging
> users to do something (now, or later) in a way that involves _their_
> running nonfree software.  If you tell people to look at that page on
> https://justpaste.it/, you're directing _them_ to run its nonfree
> Javascript code.

You don't have to load the nono-free JavaScript if you open such a
website.
Disabling JavaScript when opening a website containing non-free is the
best option I think.
I get it's a however If a user sends mail from a non-free service such
as Gmail it makes most users send data to these kinds of companies.
But is something we can't avoid, the comparison doesn't exactly hold up
I get that now.

> Just talking about some nonfree software is not promoting it unless
> you encourage or direct people to use it.  For instance, mentioning
> Windows or MacOS as part of making GNU Emacs run on them, or saying
> that it does, is not promoting those systems.  Sending mail that says
> it is from gmail doesn't direct other people to use gmail -- they can
> receive that message using any email facility.
>
> Please read the node References in the GNU Coding Standards for
> explanation of this concept.  With that explanation you'll understand
> what this issue is about.
>
>   > There's even a package solely to support non-free software in Elpa.
>
> That _might_ be promoting nonfree software, or might not, depending on
> details of what that package does.  Perhaos it mainly encourages
> people who use that nonfree software to use Emacs with it.  That is a
> good thing to do.

At time the limit of inclusion of such software or specific vendor
dialect of existing standards such as OAuth2 was frowned upon.
To me what you describe sounds similar to support i.e. Microsoft
specific dialects of OAuth2.

> I would like to take a look at it and see what it does.
> What is its name?

The name is excorporate.

Re: [External] : Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Björn Bidar]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> (Caveat: I'm not following this thread.)
>
>> As stated item i.e. customization options don't contain context from
>> where .i.e which group they are from. Just compare the mockup posted by
>> the op and the output of customizes search function.
>
> Not sure what you mean.
>
> A `customize-option' buffer does have, as its
> last line, a list of its custom `Groups:', and
> the group names are links to `customize-group'.

If you search something that could match a word in multiple customize
options such as name or address their is now indicator where each option
(what I called item before) comes from.

E.g. for example you search for -name

Currently the result looks like this:

<option>
<option description>

<option>
<option description>

<option>
<option description>

Basically just listing all the customs options matching the term you
entered which you can change here and there but there's no grouping
after where each option is from.

E.g. something like this:

<group option belongs to>

<option belonging to group>
<option description>


<another option belonging to group>
<option description>

Then repeat and repeat depending how many options have been returned and
to how many different customize groups they belong to.

>
> OTOT, it's true that `C-h v' for an option
> doesn't say which custom groups the option
> belongs to.  Perhaps that info should be
> provided there.

I wasn't talking about that one but it could help of too to add the
group there.

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

You made a real effort to explain your idea, but I don't
understand the basic concepts that it takes for granted.
You've said some things about details of how categories and filters work,
but I have no idea what they mean.

Although I understand some of what you said, I still don't understand
the idea of what this feature would do.  For instance,

  > Each name is a filter that user can select to filter on the
  > corresponding user options. I tried to classify them using the most
  > beginner-friendly terms, just to show the main idea I want yo
  > communicate.

makes abstract sense, but I still don't understand what these
filters would be good for in practice.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > >   > I added a screenshot of what such an interface might look like (which
  > >   > >   > is better than words).  https://justpaste.it/fdau4.
  > >   > >
  > >   > > That site seems to depend on nonfree Javascript code.  Those of us who
  > >   > > block nonfree Javascript. or block Javascript entirely, cannot see
  > >   > > whatever you meant to show us.
  > >
  > >   > The website works entirely without JavaScript.
  > >
  > > I just tried it again and verified that LibreJS reported blocked scripts.
  > > (They are blocked for not being labeled with a free liecense.
  > >

  > The website loads without JS if you encounter such an issue try loading
  > without JS.

I am not sure what that concretely means.

What exactly do you man by "loading without JS">

I _normally_ disable nonfree JS, by using LibreJS.  Are you trying to
say that the site fails with LibreJS but would work properly if I were
to disable JavaScrpt 100% instead?

If the site works that way, it is a pain in the neck, but it can
be fixed.

                Why do you keep talking about the JavaScript which you don't
  > like to load?

That sentence seems to stretch words which are not contradictory so as
to accuse them of being contradictory.

Please don't do that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I would like to take a look at it and see what it does.
  > > What is its name?

  > The name is excorporate.

Thanks.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: A new filter-based customization interface

[Moakt Temporary Email]

Hi Richard,


Thank you for taking my proposition into consideration.


> Would you like to familiarize yourself with M-x configure and related
> commands, see what it does and what it doesn't do, and describe
> your idea in terms of how it differs from what we already have?
>
> Do the differences concern manner of display, or the semantics
> of the customization methods?

I listed below some of the differences that come to my mind first:


- make better choices:
many things can be done in emacs, in different ways, filtering on a specific topic, can show user that he has alternatives to what he is trying to accomplish.



- discover-ability:
emacs has many options/features (even little ones), that are of big help/change for users, in their daily use of emacs, and they often discover them (very) late.



- self-descriptive:
The interface by itself, before even using it, describes what emacs can do.
(Yet emacs can do many other things that should be added to the interface)



- navigation
I find it difficult to navigate back and forth in the actual interface.

Most softwares have a fixed menu to the left, that is always there, to which you can always refer.  And also sometimes tabs to the right (for each entry in the left menu), for which also you can always refer.

With the actual interface sometimes you also loose the sense of where you are.  You can only see the direct parent group, and also sometimes you need to scroll to see it, other times you find multiple direct parent groups which can be confusing.

With the new interface, we can avoid this.
we can display all the filter section in a buffer, and all the resulting options in another buffer, which gives the user a more pleasant navigation (although we are comparing two different concept for finding the options).



- beginner-friendly
Using terms that users may be already familiar with.  Users can be coming from different backgrounds.



- gradually introduce users to emacs vocabulary
While most of the filters would use familiar terms, there are some that are emacs-specific.  This makes users realize that these words are important/special in emacs.
For example: face, overlay, minibuffer, keybinding, keymap, font-lock, narrowing, mark, region, kill ring, mark ring, etc.

User should have been already introduced to the other more important ones (modeline, frame, window, echo area, buffer, command, etc.), which are _really_ needed to start using emacs. (check the side note below)



- intuitive
emacs has a huge number of options, for which some are candidate to more than one group, and can have also some side effects on other things happening in emacs or on the user system, etc.  So the most intuitive way I can think of is to use tags.



- visually
I did not add anything special to the interface, yet it already looks nicer.
With little modifications it can be even better, we can for example use some colors, icons, etc.



- important options when starting with emacs:
There are somehow “known” options that user would normally add/change first when starting with emacs, we can put them forward, when the user opens the interface for the first time, or group them together under a specific filter.



- extensible/flexible
The interface can be extended to include any sort of filters.
For example, we can let user filter on options depending on emacs versions [...] [27] [28] [29] [30] [deprecated], or if option is safe or not, etc.



- help/learn:
I can see the same questions are being asked from emacs users, on platforms, (how can I do this ?, etc.), while in there very question, you can find the necessary keywords, that if they use in this interface, they would easily find what they are looking for.



- help/troubleshoot:
many questions are also related to problems, (having this behavior when doing this action, or emacs became very slow, etc.). These keywords can also be used to find the corresponding responsible option(s).



- attractive
Users are often attracted by what they see first, if an image of the new interface (yet to be enhanced/modified) is posted on emacs website, or on some platforms, will be more appealing to users, than an image of the actual interface.


- more informative
We can instead of displaying filters like this:
 [modeline]  [window]  [frame]  [tab]

we can add a counter of the underlying options like this:
 [modeline(30)]  [window(25)]  [frame(10)]  [tab(15)]



- user’s tags/filters:
We can give user the possibility to tag the options himself. (by workflow, project, task, work, home, friend, favorite, check later, laptop, etc.)
These tags would automatically appear in the interface.



- accurate results
doing a text search might not find the option user is looking for, maybe because the keyword is not included, or the keyword is wrongly written, or written differently, for example “modeline”/“mode line”, or maybe a synonym of the keyword was used.

Sometimes, user may get options he was not looking for, because it happened that the keyword is present in the text.



- possible search keyword(s)
new users often don’t really know what to search for.  For example, user should search for “auto-completion” or “auto-fill”, “cut” or “kill”, “paste” or “yank”, “region” or “selection”, “cursor” or “point”, “color” or “font” or “face” or “theme” or “appearance” or “visual”, etc.

while trying different keywords in the actual interface, user will get some results (and mostly different each time), which bring more confusion.

And even though, it happens that user chose the correct keyword(s) from the first time, and as the results are not guaranteed to be accurate (check previous section), this might bring even more confusion.



- excluding tags:
This interface would normally filter on intersection ([a] AND [b]) between selected filters.
But sometimes user would need to select [a] AND [b] AND ![c].
I don’t see the usefulness of doing a union [a] OR [b], but it can also be implemented using this interface, if needed.



- task-oriented
When users choose emacs (or any other software), it is to accomplish a given task first (agenda, spellcheck, irc, etc.), this interface (a) will enable users to quickly find the options related to the given task.

If someone may find that these tags should be represented in another way (b), or someone else prefers (c).

We can give the user an option to choose between interface (a), (b) or (c), with one of them being the default.



-package integration: [^1]
we can also integrate packages, so user can easily find the needed package(s), and install them (their corresponding options would be then added).
It would be somehow similar to what “M-x finder-by-keyword RET” does.

This will also be a nice and straight-forward way to gradually introduce user to package ecosystem in emacs.



- user’s commands integration: [^2]
We can also tag the commands in the same go, so user can easily find the command(s) he needs to accomplish a certain task, the same advantages above would apply here.



- other symbols integration: [^3]
Also tagging the other api functions, variables, hooks, macros, etc, which will be a great help for users/developers trying to learn and/or write their own: (the same advantages above would apply here too)
+ to see if it already exists, before doing so.
+ to search which api they can use, for a certain task, in their own functions.
+ to find some similar functions, as an example/inspiration to what they are trying to accomplish (if the “exact” functionality is not already implemented).
+ to “discover” the available api gradually.



- other
tagging the options might have other usefulness than for using them for this interface.  Some tags can be more internally oriented, and not intended to be used/shown to user.




[^1], [^2], [^3]:
For these, they can be in a separate interface, or we can add them to the same interface, for example as below:
- filter by type: [option] [command] [variable] [function] [macro] [hook] [package]




Side Note:
----------
I wrote a “Get Started” introduction to emacs, and showed how it can be nicely integrated in the current Startup buffer, to guide the user when opening emacs for the first time (or even referring to it later as needed), and I would like to know your opinion on it.  It is the HTML code at the very end of the following message: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00245.html.



I am proposing a global idea to make starting with emacs much easier and intuitive for newcomers and deferring any (long) reading material to later on. (this will also be useful for everyone)



Thank you