From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#3501: 23.0.94; Use Unicode in Info (?) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:56:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3022D2AAB13E41CEA14A86DF771BAEB2@us.oracle.com> References: <20090609171758.GB11634@muc.de><4A0B2BEF97F8491FA12CBE48BBCE7EC9@us.oracle.com> <20090609181705.GD11634@muc.de> Reply-To: Drew Adams , 3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1244578659 11765 80.91.229.12 (9 Jun 2009 20:17:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:17:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: "'Alan Mackenzie'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 09 22:17:35 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1ME7lG-0001BZ-8b for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:17:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56298 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ME7lF-0006kw-JR for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ME7l9-0006js-Pj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:27 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ME7l5-0006iL-9M for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=40127 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ME7l4-0006iD-Po for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:22 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:47147) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1ME7l4-0001J5-6z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:22 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n59KHJq0027599; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:17:19 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n59K55s8025284; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:05:05 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:05:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 3501 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 3501-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B3501.124457739624277 (code B ref 3501); Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:05:05 +0000 Original-Received: (at 3501) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Jun 2009 19:56:36 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com (acsinet12.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n59JuV4q024270 for <3501@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:56:32 -0700 Original-Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n59Jr2xP022134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:53:04 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt009.oracle.com (abhmt009.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n59JuQQd004078; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:56:26 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.80.206) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:56:20 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcnpMheUZkrNdDMPSr6bLOMU398nPQAA9Wgw In-Reply-To: <20090609181705.GD11634@muc.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: abhmt009.oracle.com [141.146.116.18] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010201.4A2EBE65.023F:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:17:27 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:28605 Archived-At: > > Isn't Emacs capable of somehow knowing whether the current=20 > > display can show non-ASCII chars? >=20 > Emacs is capable of anything, provided you put enough effort=20 > into telling it. Assuming you're running on a pure ASCII > display, or one running an ISO-8859 character set (as I do), > how much effort must you put into telling Emacs (and > standalone Info) that you really, really don't want > random Unicode bytes cluttering up your screen? I meant Emacs, not the user. Can't Emacs itself tell whether to show = Unicode or not? See my example regarding buff-menu.el. Emacs already decides = whether to try to show you images and other display features. > > I'm not against coddling your sturdy old card punch, but not at the > > price of giving up the world beyond ASCII for the rest of, well, the > > world beyond ASCII (does your punch _really_ speak ASCII, or does it > > speak EBCDIC or perhaps Univac field-data chars?). >=20 > > Would you by the same token remove the possibility of Emacs files to > > use Unicode chars? >=20 > Not at all. Quite a lot of people want Unicode, but quite a=20 > lot don't. We shouldn't force it upon them. If their Emacs supports Unicode, they would see the people's real names. = If their Emacs does not support Unicode, they would see an ASCII-art = version of the real names, like now. Where's the forcing? If they want to stick with = ASCII, they'll see ASCII. If users want only black & white, they get it. If they don't want a = mouse, they don't need a mouse. Likewise menus, highlighting, and all the rest. No = problem. I agree that one should not need to have Unicode support to be able to = use Info. It does not follow that Info must present itself, by default and to = everyone, using only the lowest common denominator for every possible user = interaction. We've finally added font-locking by default, and we've gotten rid of = vestigial limits due to 900-baud communication - by default, at least. And you can = turn off font-locking. No one stops a user from wearing a hair shirt and sleeping on nails in a Siberian cabin without windows or running water. But that doesn't mean = that the default should be to expect that most users have such preferences. Unicode is today's ASCII, like it or not. And I notice that you said you = use ISO 8859. Why is that? Did you get tired of using `$' to represent a pound = or a euro? For you, I guess, whatever you use is OK for the default - ISO = 8859 would be OK for Info, instead of ASCII?=20 Why don't you limit yourself to Extended ASCII, which has a pound sign = and lots of other "fancy" stuff (http://www.asciitable.com/)? Why go all of the = way to the wild side, to ISO 8859? Aren't you afraid that that will open the = flood gates to using such fancy characters (including character graphics) all = over the place? Who can trust users to behave themselves with such means in their = hands? > > J=F8rgensen is more readable than J/orgensen, but J/orgensen=20 > > is fine for a card punch. ;-) >=20 > Possibly. But I have just the _tiniest_ suspicion that this=20 > is the thin end of the wedge, the crack in the dyke, the floodgates=20 > wanting to burst open. How long before people start using Xah's > fancy 3-byte quote marks, with associated dangly bits hanging off = them? Fear can be a powerful motivator. But not necessarily a wise counselor. It's not because you _can_ make text proportional or italic or magenta = or 23-point or blinking or boxed or gothic that you _will_ do so = everywhere.=20 Your reaction reminds me of conservatives who try to deny access to = information and new possibilities because of fear of the unknown. Keep women at home = or covered in black. No libraries, so we don't incite the unwashed masses = with ideas they won't be able to handle responsibly. No voting for the = ignorant or unpropertied. Close the box, quick! (How do you spell etidull?)