* vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator @ 2008-02-25 12:46 Nick Roberts 2008-02-25 20:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-02-25 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel The problem with this message is that it is so long that the bit after ("from filename") doesn't fit in 80 columns. Also a warning-face isn't really needed because it doesn't provide a wake up call: the user has just entered a command, e.g, vc-diff or vc-print-log, so presumably he's already looking for the output buffer. I've used the same style as I've used for the GUD buffer. If text in the mode-line is going to be increasingly fontified, it might be a good idea to have some consistency. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob *** vc.el.~1.541.~ 2008-02-24 08:24:18.000000000 +1300 --- vc.el 2008-02-26 01:29:24.000000000 +1300 *************** BUF defaults to \"*vc*\", can be a strin *** 1064,1077 **** (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () (setq mode-line-process ! ;; Deliberate overstatement, but power law respected. ! ;; (The message is ephemeral, so we make it loud.) --ttn ! (propertize " (incomplete/in progress)" ! 'face (if (featurep 'compile) ! ;; ttn's preferred loudness ! 'compilation-warning ! ;; suitably available fallback ! font-lock-warning-face) 'help-echo "A VC command is in progress in this buffer"))) --- 1064,1071 ---- (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () (setq mode-line-process ! (propertize " [waiting...]" ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face 'help-echo "A VC command is in progress in this buffer"))) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-02-25 12:46 vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-02-25 20:25 ` Nick Roberts 2008-02-26 4:11 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-02-25 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Nick Roberts writes: > > The problem with this message is that it is so long that the bit after > ("from filename") doesn't fit in 80 columns. Also a warning-face isn't > really needed because it doesn't provide a wake up call: the user has just > entered a command, e.g, vc-diff or vc-print-log, so presumably he's already > looking for the output buffer. > > I've used the same style as I've used for the GUD buffer. If text in the > mode-line is going to be increasingly fontified, it might be a good idea to > have some consistency. I forgot to ask: Shall I apply this patch? > -- > Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob > > > *** vc.el.~1.541.~ 2008-02-24 08:24:18.000000000 +1300 > --- vc.el 2008-02-26 01:29:24.000000000 +1300 > *************** BUF defaults to \"*vc*\", can be a strin > *** 1064,1077 **** > > (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () > (setq mode-line-process > ! ;; Deliberate overstatement, but power law respected. > ! ;; (The message is ephemeral, so we make it loud.) --ttn > ! (propertize " (incomplete/in progress)" > ! 'face (if (featurep 'compile) > ! ;; ttn's preferred loudness > ! 'compilation-warning > ! ;; suitably available fallback > ! font-lock-warning-face) > 'help-echo > "A VC command is in progress in this buffer"))) > > --- 1064,1071 ---- > > (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () > (setq mode-line-process > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face > 'help-echo > "A VC command is in progress in this buffer"))) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-02-25 20:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-02-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris 2008-02-26 7:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-02-26 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nick Roberts; +Cc: emacs-devel Nick Roberts wrote: > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face I much prefer your wording. With regards to the face, any chance of a new one? I know this is what people always say, and that for some reason creating new faces is sometimes frowned upon. The practical reason is, the mode-line often has a different background colour to the main buffer, so a font-lock face customized to look good in the buffer may look poor on the mode-line. Eg for me, font-lock-warning-face is practically invisible in the mode-line. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-02-26 4:11 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-02-26 7:38 ` Nick Roberts 2008-03-01 22:19 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-02-26 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel > > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face > > I much prefer your wording. > > With regards to the face, any chance of a new one? I know this is what > people always say, and that for some reason creating new faces is > sometimes frowned upon. The practical reason is, the mode-line often > has a different background colour to the main buffer, so a font-lock > face customized to look good in the buffer may look poor on the > mode-line. Eg for me, font-lock-warning-face is practically invisible > in the mode-line. I don't know enough to suggest a better one. Perhaps someone else can. I just selected a quiet font-lock face, as font-lock faces are always available. On a related note, I think that adding colour to the mode-line of the already psychedelic compilation buffer means ironically that the plain text starts to stand out. Bright colours only draw attention to a part of the screen if they are used in moderation. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-02-26 7:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-01 22:19 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-01 22:26 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-03-02 5:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-01 22:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nick Roberts; +Cc: emacs-devel Nick Roberts wrote: > > > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > > > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face Sorry, but now this is installed I see it is totally invisible on my mode-line. Please can I either remove the 'face altogether or create a new face for it. I don't care which. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-01 22:19 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-01 22:26 ` Nick Roberts 2008-03-01 22:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-02 5:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-01 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel > > > > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > > > > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face > > Sorry, but now this is installed I see it is totally invisible on my > mode-line. > > Please can I either remove the 'face altogether or create a new face > for it. I don't care which. I committed it because that seemed to fit the culture being advocated. If it doesn't work for you then please do change it accordingly. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-01 22:26 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-01 22:53 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-02 16:12 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-02 17:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-01 22:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nick Roberts; +Cc: emacs-devel Nick Roberts wrote: > > Sorry, but now this is installed I see it is totally invisible on my > > mode-line. > > > > Please can I either remove the 'face altogether or create a new face > > for it. I don't care which. > > I committed it because that seemed to fit the culture being advocated. If it > doesn't work for you then please do change it accordingly. I don't know nothing' 'bout no culture... I should have tried it out to see how it looked. If people feel the need to emphasize certain mode-line features (and if you did a similar thing for gud, there probably is such a need), then I would say it needs a new face; because the mode-line palette is different to the buffer palette. I suggest a new `mode-line-emphasis' face. The existing `mode-line-highlight' doesn't look right because it is designed for buttons. I made up some defaults; I'm not sure about them. *** faces.el.~1.394.~ 2008-02-23 11:24:00.000000000 -0800 --- faces.el 2008-03-01 14:47:47.000000000 -0800 *************** *** 2388,2398 **** :box (:line-width 2 :color "grey40" :style released-button)) (t :inherit highlight)) ! "Basic mode line face for highlighting." :version "22.1" :group 'mode-line-faces :group 'basic-faces) (defface mode-line-buffer-id '((t (:weight bold))) "Face used for buffer identification parts of the mode line." --- 2388,2409 ---- :box (:line-width 2 :color "grey40" :style released-button)) (t :inherit highlight)) ! "Basic mode line face for highlighting (of buttons, etc)." :version "22.1" :group 'mode-line-faces :group 'basic-faces) + (defface mode-line-emphasis + '((((class color) (min-colors 88)) + :background "grey40") + (t + :inherit highlight)) + "Face used to emphasize certain mode line features. + Use the face `mode-line-highlight' for features that can be selected." + :version "23.1" + :group 'mode-line-faces + :group 'basic-faces) + (defface mode-line-buffer-id '((t (:weight bold))) "Face used for buffer identification parts of the mode line." *** vc.el.~1.545.~ 2008-03-01 11:41:50.000000000 -0800 --- vc.el 2008-03-01 14:43:10.000000000 -0800 *************** *** 1063,1072 **** (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () (setq mode-line-process ! (propertize " [waiting...]" ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face 'help-echo ! "A VC command is in progress in this buffer"))) (defun vc-exec-after (code) "Eval CODE when the current buffer's process is done. --- 1063,1072 ---- (defun vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator () (setq mode-line-process ! (concat " " (propertize "[waiting...]" ! 'face 'mode-line-emphasis 'help-echo ! "A VC command is in progress in this buffer")))) (defun vc-exec-after (code) "Eval CODE when the current buffer's process is done. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-01 22:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-02 16:12 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-03 1:57 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-02 17:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-02 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Nick Roberts, emacs-devel > If people feel the need to emphasize certain mode-line features (and > if you did a similar thing for gud, there probably is such a need), > then I would say it needs a new face; because the mode-line palette is > different to the buffer palette. > > I suggest a new `mode-line-emphasis' face. The existing > `mode-line-highlight' doesn't look right because it is designed for > buttons. I made up some defaults; I'm not sure about them. > [...] > + (defface mode-line-emphasis > + '((((class color) (min-colors 88)) > + :background "grey40") > + (t > + :inherit highlight)) > + "Face used to emphasize certain mode line features. > + Use the face `mode-line-highlight' for features that can be selected." > + :version "23.1" > + :group 'mode-line-faces > + :group 'basic-faces) Text with black foreground is not very readable on dark background grey40. On the mode line there are already places where text is emphasized: buffer names are displayed in bold (bold is also often used to make *emphasis* in printed materials). Isn't bold strong enough to emphasize the "[waiting...]" string? Then we could add a new general bold face `mode-line-emphasis' and change `mode-line-buffer-id' to inherit from it. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-02 16:12 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-03 1:57 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-03 17:13 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: Nick Roberts, emacs-devel Juri Linkov wrote: > On the mode line there are already places where text is emphasized: buffer > names are displayed in bold (bold is also often used to make *emphasis* in > printed materials). Isn't bold strong enough to emphasize the "[waiting...]" > string? Then we could add a new general bold face `mode-line-emphasis' > and change `mode-line-buffer-id' to inherit from it. I'd have no problem with the default emphasis face being bold. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 1:57 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 17:13 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 21:23 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-03 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Juri Linkov, Nick Roberts, emacs-devel Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > Juri Linkov wrote: > > > On the mode line there are already places where text is emphasized: buffer > > names are displayed in bold (bold is also often used to make *emphasis* in > > printed materials). Isn't bold strong enough to emphasize the "[waiting...]" > > string? Then we could add a new general bold face `mode-line-emphasis' > > and change `mode-line-buffer-id' to inherit from it. > > I'd have no problem with the default emphasis face being bold. If it's just bold and no other colors, then it's not a good idea. For some fonts the bold form is not easy to distinguish from the normal one. More, bold is hard to see with the peripheral vision, so changes in the mode-line are harder to observe. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 17:13 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-03 21:23 ` Nick Roberts 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-03 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: Juri Linkov, Glenn Morris, emacs-devel Dan Nicolaescu writes: > Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > > > Juri Linkov wrote: > > > > > On the mode line there are already places where text is emphasized: buffer > > > names are displayed in bold (bold is also often used to make *emphasis* in > > > printed materials). Isn't bold strong enough to emphasize the "[waiting...]" > > > string? Then we could add a new general bold face `mode-line-emphasis' > > > and change `mode-line-buffer-id' to inherit from it. > > > > I'd have no problem with the default emphasis face being bold. > > If it's just bold and no other colors, then it's not a good idea. For > some fonts the bold form is not easy to distinguish from the normal > one. More, bold is hard to see with the peripheral vision, so changes > in the mode-line are harder to observe. For now, I suggest we just go with Juri's idea. I'm sure it's no good for users with tunnel vision and without bold fonts, but it seems an improvement and probably covers most users. Later, if the need arises, someone can build a framework of faces that work on the mode-line. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 21:23 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-03 23:27 ` Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-03 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nick Roberts; +Cc: Glenn Morris, Dan Nicolaescu, emacs-devel > > If it's just bold and no other colors, then it's not a good idea. For > > some fonts the bold form is not easy to distinguish from the normal > > one. More, bold is hard to see with the peripheral vision, so changes > > in the mode-line are harder to observe. > > For now, I suggest we just go with Juri's idea. I'm sure it's no good for > users with tunnel vision and without bold fonts, but it seems an improvement > and probably covers most users. > > Later, if the need arises, someone can build a framework of faces that > work on the mode-line. Please note that my opinion was mostly about the face name: in typography emphasis is usually achieved by bold (and italic). If the need for more strong indication arises then a better name for the face with stronger colors would be `mode-line-warning'. Since now Richard argued even for using no mode line indication at all, bold doesn't seem too bad. It is not strong and still helps to notice the status of the vc command. For fonts that don't support bold we could use the defface's keyword `supports' to detect this and use a fallback definition. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-01 22:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-02 16:12 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-02 17:25 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-02 18:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 1:56 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-02 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel I suggest a new `mode-line-emphasis' face. The existing `mode-line-highlight' doesn't look right because it is designed for buttons. I made up some defaults; I'm not sure about them. Does this proposal mean having two different faces for two different kinds of highlighting in the mode line? What sort of VC commands are asynchronous, other than vc-diff which shouldn't be a problem? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-02 17:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-02 18:53 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 1:56 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-02 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Glenn Morris, nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > What sort of VC commands are asynchronous, other than vc-diff which > shouldn't be a problem? All non-state changing VC commands should be asynchronous. Currently vc-diff, vc-annotate, vc-log and vc-status are. Not sure what you mean above about vc-diff... vc-diff is essential to be asynchronous, computing diffs can take several minutes (see what Tom Tromey said in another thread about GCC svn). Having an indication in the mode-line that the diff is still active is very good, especially if the user has selected a large number a files for diffing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-02 18:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-03 18:27 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 18:58 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-03 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel > What sort of VC commands are asynchronous, other than vc-diff which > shouldn't be a problem? All non-state changing VC commands should be asynchronous. Currently vc-diff, vc-annotate, vc-log and vc-status are. Not sure what you mean above about vc-diff... I see no need to inform people in the mode line that vc-diff is running, or that it has stopped. Likewise vc-log. vc-status must be something new; I don't know what it is. But any asynch vc command whose purpose is to display something need not put anything in the mode line. Better to work like vc-diff: make the output buffer appear, and the user will see when it is complete. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-03 18:58 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-03 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > > What sort of VC commands are asynchronous, other than vc-diff which > > shouldn't be a problem? > > All non-state changing VC commands should be asynchronous. Currently > vc-diff, vc-annotate, vc-log and vc-status are. > > Not sure what you mean above about vc-diff... > > I see no need to inform people in the mode line that vc-diff is > running, or that it has stopped. > > Likewise vc-log. vc-status must be > something new; I don't know what it is. But any asynch vc command > whose purpose is to display something need not put anything in the > mode line. Better to work like vc-diff: make the output buffer > appear, and the user will see when it is complete. vc-diff was one of the reasons for adding the mode-line notification: the user can't see that the output is complete. vc-diff operations can take a long time. Using CVS with a busy server/slow network tends to have very non-predictable behavior, one can't see when the diff operations has finished. If the user actually wants to use the result of vc-diff, for example to email it to someone else, then he can get incomplete results. The mode-line notification is a very good way to show that the VC command is still in progress. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 18:58 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-04 17:38 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-04 18:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-04 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel vc-diff was one of the reasons for adding the mode-line notification: the user can't see that the output is complete. It moves point when it completes, so that you can tell. Until then, point remains at the top. If you start moving point before it completes, then maybe you can't tell, unless you move to the end. Are we talking about the mode line of that buffer only? That might be reasonable. I thought people were talking about mode lines of all buffers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-04 18:39 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-04 18:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > vc-diff was one of the reasons for adding the mode-line notification: > the user can't see that the output is complete. > > It moves point when it completes, so that you can tell. > Until then, point remains at the top. > > If you start moving point before it completes, then > maybe you can't tell, unless you move to the end. Even if you move to the end, you can't tell if the command is done > Are we talking about the mode line of that buffer only? We are talking about vc-diff, vc-annotate, vc-log buffers only. > That might be reasonable. I thought people were talking about mode > lines of all buffers. No, it's not for all buffers, just for buffers that VC uses to execute commands that can take a long time. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-04 18:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-05 21:33 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-05 21:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-05 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel > If you start moving point before it completes, then > maybe you can't tell, unless you move to the end. Even if you move to the end, you can't tell if the command is done Why not? Isn't there some text that appears at the end when the command is finished? If not, let's add some. > That might be reasonable. I thought people were talking about mode > lines of all buffers. No, it's not for all buffers, just for buffers that VC uses to execute commands that can take a long time. I have no objection to that, but adding text at the end when it finishes also seems like a good idea. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-05 21:50 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 3:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-05 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > > If you start moving point before it completes, then > > maybe you can't tell, unless you move to the end. > > Even if you move to the end, you can't tell if the command is done > > Why not? Isn't there some text that appears at the end when the > command is finished? No, there isn't. > If not, let's add some. Please don't, there temporarily was some for a few months, and it was discussed at length on the list and voted out. It is annoying when you have to copy the buffer that there's extra text that is not part of the diff that you have to deal with. > > That might be reasonable. I thought people were talking about mode > > lines of all buffers. > > No, it's not for all buffers, just for buffers that VC uses to execute > commands that can take a long time. > > I have no objection to that, but adding text at the end when it finishes > also seems like a good idea. Please don't, see above. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-05 21:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 3:38 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-07 3:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Miles Bader 2008-03-07 3:55 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-07 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel Please don't, there temporarily was some for a few months, and it was discussed at length on the list and voted out. It is annoying when you have to copy the buffer that there's extra text that is not part of the diff that you have to deal with. Suppose it says "End of diff output". Why is it a problem if you copy that along with the diff? If you copy that, what harm does it do? It won't bother `patch'. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 3:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-07 3:46 ` Miles Bader 2008-03-07 17:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-08 17:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-07 3:55 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2008-03-07 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, Dan Nicolaescu, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Suppose it says "End of diff output". Why is it a problem if you copy > that along with the diff? If you copy that, what harm does it do? > It won't bother `patch'. I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the output. I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. I would love it if asynchronous vc commands used a similar indicator to show their status. -Miles -- "Though they may have different meanings, the cries of 'Yeeeee-haw!' and 'Allahu akbar!' are, in spirit, not actually all that different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 3:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Miles Bader @ 2008-03-07 17:46 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 18:05 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv 2008-03-08 17:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Miles Bader; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, rms, emacs-devel Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes: > I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by > e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a > great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. Thanks! > I would love it if asynchronous vc commands used a similar indicator > to show their status. They should currently show "[waiting...]". If you can think of something better, please fix the message. If the asynchronous commands don't show this message, then it's a bug that needs fixing, so please say when you find such a case. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 17:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 18:05 ` Jan Djärv 2008-03-07 18:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 22:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Jan Djärv @ 2008-03-07 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, rms, Miles Bader Dan Nicolaescu skrev: > Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes: > > > I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by > > e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a > > great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. > > Thanks! > > > I would love it if asynchronous vc commands used a similar indicator > > to show their status. > > They should currently show "[waiting...]". If you can think of > something better, please fix the message. If the asynchronous commands > don't show this message, then it's a bug that needs fixing, so please > say when you find such a case. > > I noticed that doing vc-status in a CVS controlled directory displays [waiting...] forever, even after the error message that says CVS doesn't support vc-status. Jan D. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 18:05 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv @ 2008-03-07 18:50 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 22:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, Miles Bader, rms, emacs-devel Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes: > Dan Nicolaescu skrev: > > Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes: > > > > > I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by > > > e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a > > > great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > I would love it if asynchronous vc commands used a similar indicator > > > to show their status. > > > > They should currently show "[waiting...]". If you can think of > > something better, please fix the message. If the asynchronous commands > > don't show this message, then it's a bug that needs fixing, so please > > say when you find such a case. > > > > > > I noticed that doing vc-status in a CVS controlled directory displays > [waiting...] forever, even after the error message that says CVS > doesn't support vc-status. Thanks, I'll take a look. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 18:05 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv 2008-03-07 18:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 22:18 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-08 7:03 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-07 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jan Dj\x1fFFFFFFFFFFFFFFrv Cc: rgm, rms, nickrob, emacs-devel, Dan Nicolaescu, Miles Bader > I noticed that doing vc-status in a CVS controlled directory displays > [waiting...] forever, even after the error message that says CVS doesn't > support vc-status. That's right. In what way is this a bug? Maybe we could make the message more clear in this case, something like [waiting for someone to implement the support for CVS...] Stefan ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 22:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-08 7:03 ` Jan Djärv 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Jan Djärv @ 2008-03-08 7:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier Cc: rgm, rms, nickrob, emacs-devel, Dan Nicolaescu, Miles Bader Stefan Monnier skrev: >> I noticed that doing vc-status in a CVS controlled directory displays >> [waiting...] forever, even after the error message that says CVS doesn't >> support vc-status. > > That's right. In what way is this a bug? > Maybe we could make the message more clear in this case, something like > > [waiting for someone to implement the support for CVS...] > > > Stefan ;-) > [waiting...] [loading ai.elc] [implementing...] [continuing...] or something? Jan D. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 3:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Miles Bader 2008-03-07 17:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-08 17:39 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Reiner Steib 2008-03-08 19:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-08 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Miles Bader; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, dann, emacs-devel I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the output. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If there is no other reason for its removal, we should put it back in. I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. Those canbe useful, but inserting text at the end is also useful. For instance, M-x compile does both. When it finishes, it inserts text saying "Compilation finished ...". It forces you to do yet another operation (delete the extra output) every time when copying from the diff buffer to and email message, or some other place. You don't need to delete that extra output. It doesn't cause any harm if you copy it into an email message. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) 2008-03-08 17:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Reiner Steib 2008-03-08 19:29 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here David Kastrup 2008-03-09 20:53 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Richard Stallman 2008-03-08 19:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2008-03-08 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, dann, emacs-devel, Miles Bader On Sat, Mar 08 2008, Richard Stallman wrote: > I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command > used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort > of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably > doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, > and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the > output. > > I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Before "Diffs between %s and %s end here" was removed, several people reported to be distracted or annoyed by it. See the thread on emacs-devel in January[1]. Nobody spoke up in favor of it when Glenn announced to "remove it in a week or so if no-one objects." > If there is no other reason for its removal, we should put it back > in. Please don't (at least provide an option to turn it off). When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. Even after seeing it several weeks (but not using diff very frequently), I still found it distracting.[1] > I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by > e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a > great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. > > Those canbe useful, but inserting text at the end is also useful. For > instance, M-x compile does both. When it finishes, it inserts text > saying "Compilation finished ...". I almost never want to save compilation output buffers (or include it in a mail message), but I often do for diffs. Additionally, in compilation mode, it is more clear that this line is not part of the output because the bold words are in green or red: | Compilation *exited abnormally* with code ... | Compilation *finished* at ... > It forces you to do yet another operation (delete the extra output) > every time when copying from the diff buffer to and email message, or > some other place. > > You don't need to delete that extra output. It doesn't cause any harm > if you copy it into an email message. Not everyone is so familiar with the patch command to know what is ignored and what not. If even Emacs developers who are quite familiar with patch, remove the extra line, I'm sure that most "ordinary" users will do the extra work as well to be sure. Bye, Reiner. [1] "Diffs between %s and %s end here". See the thread with this subject in January. <http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/84272/focus=86974> -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Reiner Steib @ 2008-03-08 19:29 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-08 19:35 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-08 21:33 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-09 20:53 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2008-03-08 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, dann, emacs-devel, Miles Bader Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes: > On Sat, Mar 08 2008, Richard Stallman wrote: > >> I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command >> used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort >> of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably >> doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, >> and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the >> output. >> >> I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. > > Before "Diffs between %s and %s end here" was removed, several people > reported to be distracted or annoyed by it. See the thread on > emacs-devel in January[1]. Nobody spoke up in favor of it when Glenn > announced to "remove it in a week or so if no-one objects." > >> If there is no other reason for its removal, we should put it back >> in. > > Please don't (at least provide an option to turn it off). > > When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make > sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see > exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. Even after > seeing it several weeks (but not using diff very frequently), I still > found it distracting.[1] Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an (evaporating) afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That way they would not be copied anywhere. >> Those canbe useful, but inserting text at the end is also useful. For >> instance, M-x compile does both. When it finishes, it inserts text >> saying "Compilation finished ...". > > I almost never want to save compilation output buffers (or include it > in a mail message), but I often do for diffs. Additionally, in > compilation mode, it is more clear that this line is not part of the > output because the bold words are in green or red: Same could be done here. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 19:29 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here David Kastrup @ 2008-03-08 19:35 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-08 19:40 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-08 21:33 ` Juri Linkov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-08 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, Richard Stallman, Miles Bader David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes: > > > On Sat, Mar 08 2008, Richard Stallman wrote: > > > >> I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command > >> used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort > >> of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably > >> doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, > >> and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the > >> output. > >> > >> I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. > > > > Before "Diffs between %s and %s end here" was removed, several people > > reported to be distracted or annoyed by it. See the thread on > > emacs-devel in January[1]. Nobody spoke up in favor of it when Glenn > > announced to "remove it in a week or so if no-one objects." > > > >> If there is no other reason for its removal, we should put it back > >> in. > > > > Please don't (at least provide an option to turn it off). > > > > When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make > > sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see > > exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. Even after > > seeing it several weeks (but not using diff very frequently), I still > > found it distracting.[1] > > Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an (evaporating) > afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That way they would not > be copied anywhere. That sounds good, as long as M-w and insert-buffer don't copy that string. But the main question remains: is it worth doing it? We already have the mode-line notification, does adding another type provide a significant benefit for the user? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 19:35 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-08 19:40 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2008-03-08 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, Richard Stallman, Miles Bader Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes: > David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > > > Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an > > (evaporating) afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That > > way they would not be copied anywhere. > > That sounds good, as long as M-w and insert-buffer don't copy that > string. Huh? Overlays are not a part of the buffer text. > But the main question remains: is it worth doing it? We already have > the mode-line notification, does adding another type provide a > significant benefit for the user? Its relevance is after the compilation text, so it is a natural place to look for it. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 19:29 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here David Kastrup 2008-03-08 19:35 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-08 21:33 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-08 21:39 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-08 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup Cc: rgm, Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, Miles Bader >>> If there is no other reason for its removal, we should put it back in. >> >> Please don't (at least provide an option to turn it off). >> >> When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make >> sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see >> exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. Even after >> seeing it several weeks (but not using diff very frequently), I still >> found it distracting.[1] > > Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an (evaporating) > afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That way they would not > be copied anywhere. I think this is a good idea: this footer will be still displayed but not copied or saved. But please don't use such overlays for compilation buffers - they are not like diff output. After saving and later visiting the old compilation output it is useful to see the overall status of the compilation at the end of the saved output file. Also it is useful to see how long the full compilation took time (by subtracting times at the beginning and the end of compilation) to make estimation how long the next compilation will take time. However, nothing like this is necessary for diff output which I think should have no additional text appended in the saved file. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 21:33 ` Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-08 21:39 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-08 21:59 ` Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-08 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, Miles Bader Juri Linkov wrote: >> Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an (evaporating) >> afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That way they would not >> be copied anywhere. > > I think this is a good idea: this footer will be still displayed > but not copied or saved. I don't. I object to the visual appearance of this footer in any form. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 21:39 ` Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-08 21:59 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-08 23:41 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-08 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, Miles Bader >>> Maybe we should put informational messages like that as an (evaporating) >>> afterstring overlay on the final LF character? That way they would not >>> be copied anywhere. >> >> I think this is a good idea: this footer will be still displayed >> but not copied or saved. > > I don't. I object to the visual appearance of this footer in any form. My comment was for the case when displaying this footer is unavoidable (though I don't think it is), and provided it will be optional, I will immediately turn it off. Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have a question: isn't visual indication for the current status in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? Maybe we should install a change that uses this new face to display the status, and wait for more feedback? Then what about *cvs-diff* and *Diff*? Should they use the same technique? -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 21:59 ` Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-08 23:41 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-08 23:58 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-08 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, Miles Bader Juri Linkov wrote: > Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? I (have always) agree(d) with this, but I'm not sure if rms does. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 23:41 ` Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-08 23:58 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 0:29 ` Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2008-03-08 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris Cc: Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, dann, Miles Bader Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > Juri Linkov wrote: > >> Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that >> additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have >> a question: isn't visual indication for the current status >> in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > I (have always) agree(d) with this, but I'm not sure if rms does. For me, the bottom of the compilation output seems like a natural place to look for that kind of info. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 23:58 ` David Kastrup @ 2008-03-09 0:29 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 10:10 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-09 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup Cc: Glenn Morris, Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, Miles Bader David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > > > Juri Linkov wrote: > > > >> Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > >> additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > >> a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > >> in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > > > I (have always) agree(d) with this, but I'm not sure if rms does. > > For me, the bottom of the compilation output seems like a natural place > to look for that kind of info. It has never been there, adding it (like adding anything else to emacs) should require a very strong argument, given there are so many counter arguments. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 0:29 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-09 10:10 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 15:02 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2008-03-09 10:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu Cc: Glenn Morris, Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, Miles Bader [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 832 bytes --] Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes: > David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > > > Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > > > > > Juri Linkov wrote: > > > > > >> Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > > >> additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > > >> a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > > >> in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > > > > > I (have always) agree(d) with this, but I'm not sure if rms does. > > > > For me, the bottom of the compilation output seems like a natural place > > to look for that kind of info. > > It has never been there, adding it (like adding anything else to emacs) > should require a very strong argument, given there are so many counter > arguments. Huh? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 158 bytes --] -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "/home/tmp/akt/" -*- Compilation started at Sun Mar 9 11:09:45 echo Compilation finished at Sun Mar 9 11:09:46 [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 52 bytes --] -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 10:10 ` David Kastrup @ 2008-03-09 15:02 ` Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-09 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup Cc: Glenn Morris, Richard Stallman, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, Miles Bader David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes: > > > David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > > > > > Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes: > > > > > > > Juri Linkov wrote: > > > > > > > >> Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > > > >> additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > > > >> a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > > > >> in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > > > > > > > I (have always) agree(d) with this, but I'm not sure if rms does. > > > > > > For me, the bottom of the compilation output seems like a natural place > > > to look for that kind of info. > > > > It has never been there, adding it (like adding anything else to emacs) > > should require a very strong argument, given there are so many counter > > arguments. > > Huh? I was talking about diff. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 0:29 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 10:10 ` David Kastrup @ 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, juri, miles > For me, the bottom of the compilation output seems like a natural place > to look for that kind of info. It has never been there, adding it (like adding anything else to emacs) should require a very strong argument, given there are so many counter arguments. In another message I've explained why it is useful. In addition, it is desirable for consistency with M-x diff. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-08 21:59 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-08 23:41 ` Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 17:57 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, miles Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have a question: isn't visual indication for the current status in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? I don't think so. When the process terminates, it is nice to have confirmation that it completed normally. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 17:57 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-10 6:12 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-09 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, miles > Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > I don't think so. When the process terminates, it is nice to have > confirmation that it completed normally. Then we could use the same non-intrusive solution already implemented for compile: when compilation is successful it displays the successful status in the mode line of the compilation buffer in green. When compilation fails, it displays the error code in the mode line in red. So no additional text is necessary to append to the end of the output that many find too annoying. This modeline indication should be enough for confirmation the process completed normally. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 17:57 ` Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-10 6:12 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-11 0:20 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-10 6:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, dann, miles Then we could use the same non-intrusive solution already implemented for compile: when compilation is successful it displays the successful status in the mode line of the compilation buffer in green. When compilation fails, it displays the error code in the mode line in red. Using faces that way seems like a good idea. Still, the arguments offered against inserting a "finished" message, like M-x compile and M-x diff, seem to make much ado about very little. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-10 6:12 ` Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-11 0:20 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2008-03-11 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, dann, miles Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Then we could use the same non-intrusive solution already implemented for > compile: when compilation is successful it displays the successful status > in the mode line of the compilation buffer in green. When compilation > fails, it displays the error code in the mode line in red. > > Using faces that way seems like a good idea. Still, the arguments > offered against inserting a "finished" message, like M-x compile > and M-x diff, seem to make much ado about very little. As long as there is reasonable agreement that a "very little" change is an improvement, I don't see anything wrong in following through. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 17:57 ` Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-10 3:02 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-10 6:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-09 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, dann, miles Richard Stallman wrote: > Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that > additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have > a question: isn't visual indication for the current status > in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? > > I don't think so. When the process terminates, it is nice to have > confirmation that it completed normally. It's very frustrating that a discussion about creating a single new face has got sidetracked into this issue. We have already had this discussion. No-one agreed with you. Please read the references Reiner supplied. Meanwhile, vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator continue to be totally invisible for me. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-10 3:02 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-10 6:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-10 3:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: rms, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, dann, miles >> Since it seems the discussion currently reached consensus that >> additional text is necessary only for visual indication, I have >> a question: isn't visual indication for the current status >> in the mode line is sufficient with the new face `mode-line-emphasis'? >> >> I don't think so. When the process terminates, it is nice to have >> confirmation that it completed normally. > It's very frustrating that a discussion about creating a single new > face has got sidetracked into this issue. We have already had this > discussion. No-one agreed with you. Please read the references Reiner > supplied. > Meanwhile, vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator continue to be totally > invisible for me. Please create a mode-line-emphasis face and use it for vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-10 3:02 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-10 6:11 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-10 22:07 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-10 6:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel, juri, dann, miles It's very frustrating that a discussion about creating a single new face has got sidetracked into this issue. We have already had this discussion. No-one agreed with you. Please read the references Reiner supplied. Due to the rather nasty tone, I do not feel inclined to carry out your demand. Especially when it involves something as inconvenient as looking at a web site. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-10 6:11 ` Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-10 22:07 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-11 20:24 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-10 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel, juri, dann, miles Richard Stallman wrote: > Due to the rather nasty tone, I do not feel inclined to carry out your > demand. You've accused me of making demands before. I'm not at all put out, but rather than letting it slide this time, let's analyse my mail: It's very frustrating A statement of how I feel about something. In hindsight, the "very" was overkill, but I guess I'm entitled to feel how I like. that a discussion about creating a single new face has got sidetracked into this issue. A statement that I think the discussion has been sidetracked. We have already had this discussion. A statement of fact. No-one agreed with you. A statement of fact. Please read the references Reiner supplied. A request framed in a normal level of politeness. I don't know how you want me to ask you things if you think this is a "demand". > Especially when it involves something as inconvenient as looking at > a web site. Reiner also supplied the name of the thread and the month it took place in. I thought this was how you normally found old mailing list discussions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-10 22:07 ` Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-11 20:24 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-11 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel, juri, dann, miles > Due to the rather nasty tone, I do not feel inclined to carry out your > demand. You've accused me of making demands before. I'm not at all put out, but rather than letting it slide this time, let's analyse my mail: Tone isn't found in the questions that you analyzed. For instance, a demand can be made in the words of a polite request. Perhaps you didn't mean it as nasty. Perhaps you didn't mean to say "Go read that link (and shut up)." But that's what it sounds like to me. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Reiner Steib 2008-03-08 19:29 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here David Kastrup @ 2008-03-09 20:53 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 22:39 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here Reiner Steib 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Reiner Steib; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, dann, emacs-devel, miles When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. How do you check that they are exactly the same diffs? Do you use M-x compare-windows? When that comes to the end of the diffs in both buffers, the fact that one has a note saying "end of diffs" won't make it harder for you to tell that the two are identical. I almost never want to save compilation output buffers (or include it in a mail message), but I often do for diffs. I don't think that end-of-diffs message will do any harm when you save or mail the diffs. In an email there will usually be other text both above and below the diffs, in any case. Adding one line of more text below the diffs won't change the situation much. Additionally, in compilation mode, it is more clear that this line is not part of the output because the bold words are in green or red: We could put colors into the notice in the diff buffer just as we do in compilation mode. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: Diffs between %s and %s end here 2008-03-09 20:53 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 22:39 ` Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2008-03-09 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, Juri Linkov, dann, miles On Sun, Mar 09 2008, Richard Stallman wrote: > When I produce a diff before committing a change, I often want to make > sure the no unintended/other changes crept in. I expect to see > exactly the diffs, not some disturbing additional lines. > > How do you check that they are exactly the same diffs? > Do you use M-x compare-windows? No. Usually I just look at it. E.g. when someone sends a mail with a patch for Gnus, I apply it from the mail buffer. Then I do `C-x v =' (or `=' in PCL-CVS) and check if everything is as intended (e.g. that there are no other unrelated uncommitted changes). > When that comes to the end of the diffs in both buffers, the fact > that one has a note saying "end of diffs" won't make it harder for > you to tell that the two are identical. [...] > I don't think that end-of-diffs message will do any harm when you save > or mail the diffs. I can only repeat that even after seeing this note several time, I was still distracted. We already had such a end-of-diff note in CVS (see the subject: "Diffs between %s and %s end here") for some weeks and _nobody_ argued to keep it, but several developers were and still are strongly against it. > Additionally, in > compilation mode, it is more clear that this line is not part of the > output because the bold words are in green or red: > > We could put colors into the notice in the diff buffer just as we do > in compilation mode. I agree with Juri (and others)...; in <87k5kb7pm9.fsf@jurta.org>, Juri wrote: | Then we could use the same non-intrusive solution already implemented for | compile: when compilation is successful it displays the successful status | in the mode line of the compilation buffer in green. When compilation | fails, it displays the error code in the mode line in red. | | So no additional text is necessary to append to the end of the output that | many find too annoying. This modeline indication should be enough for | confirmation the process completed normally. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-08 17:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Reiner Steib @ 2008-03-08 19:18 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-08 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, Miles Bader Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > I dunno, maybe it's just a personal foible, but emacs the "diff" command > used to add this sort of terminator line (haven't noticed recently) sort > of terminator string, and I always found it very annoying -- it probably > doesn't cause anything to _break_ but it was like an ugly little wart, > and I always ended up going to extra effort to delete it when saving the > output. > > I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If there is no > other reason for its removal, we should put it back in. I think you misunderstand, this has not been done in any released version of emacs, it was just a failed experiment in CVS HEAD. > I think the highlighted mode-line status indicators used by > e.g. compile-mode (running or finished etc) now are really nice and do a > great job of quickly making me aware of what's going on. > > Those canbe useful, but inserting text at the end is also useful. For > instance, M-x compile does both. When it finishes, it inserts text > saying "Compilation finished ...". Compilation buffers are fundamentally different: people don't email them, read the with a lot of attention, and don't pass them to other tools, so this argument does not apply. > It forces you to do yet another operation (delete the extra output) > every time when copying from the diff buffer to and email message, or > some other place. > > You don't need to delete that extra output. It doesn't cause any harm > if you copy it into an email message. I does, I've had a bad personal experience with that: after adding patches at the end of mail messages with using M-x insert-buffer RET *vc-diff* RET I got a comment: "Please fix your mailer not to insert crap at the end of messages" There's no reason to subject emacs users to such abuse for absolutely zero benefit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-08 19:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 17:10 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, miles > I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If there is no > other reason for its removal, we should put it back in. I think you misunderstand, this has not been done in any released version of emacs, it was just a failed experiment in CVS HEAD. You have lost me there. I don't know what that sentence means. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 17:10 ` Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-09 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel, miles Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > > I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If there is no > > other reason for its removal, we should put it back in. > > I think you misunderstand, this has not been done in any released > version of emacs, it was just a failed experiment in CVS HEAD. > > You have lost me there. I don't know what that sentence means. It means that such a feature has never been available in an emacs release, so it did not exist for the vast majority of emacs users. To add such a feature now, it has to stand up to the usual scrutiny that new features usually do. Up until now it has completely failed this scrutiny. Except for you, everyone on this list has hated it, and given good reasons for that. You said in another message that you explained why this would be good. But many people in many different messages have showed that it will definitely be bad, even when taking into account your arguments. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-08 19:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-09 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Nicolaescu; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, miles, emacs-devel I does, I've had a bad personal experience with that: after adding patches at the end of mail messages with using M-x insert-buffer RET *vc-diff* RET I got a comment: "Please fix your mailer not to insert crap at the end of messages" It sounds like you were dealing with someone rude. There's no reason to subject emacs users to such abuse for absolutely zero benefit. I've explained elsewhere the benefit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-07 3:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-07 3:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Miles Bader @ 2008-03-07 3:55 ` Dan Nicolaescu 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-07 3:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Please don't, there temporarily was some for a few months, and it was > discussed at length on the list and voted out. It is annoying when you > have to copy the buffer that there's extra text that is not part of the > diff that you have to deal with. > > Suppose it says "End of diff output". That's approximately what it used to say, and it was very much hated, and voted out. > Why is it a problem if you copy that along with the diff? If you > copy that, what harm does it do? It forces you to do yet another operation (delete the extra output) every time when copying from the diff buffer to and email message, or some other place. We do have a superior, very intuitive solution (i.e. displaying the running status in the mode-line), that does not require extra work, so it is not a good idea to go back to something that does not provide any advantage, but requires extra work in the case of copying from the diff buffer (which nowadays is quite a frequent operations, many many patches get emailed between developers). > It won't bother `patch'. It will bother the reader though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-02 17:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-02 18:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu @ 2008-03-03 1:56 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 1:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: > I suggest a new `mode-line-emphasis' face. The existing > `mode-line-highlight' doesn't look right because it is designed for > buttons. I made up some defaults; I'm not sure about them. > > Does this proposal mean having two different faces for two different > kinds of highlighting in the mode line? Yes. mode-line-highlight (as now) for things you might click, which are highlighted as buttons on mouse-over. mode-line-emphasis for "non-interactive" things you don't click, which are always highlighted. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 1:56 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 18:27 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 21:04 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-03 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel Yes. mode-line-highlight (as now) for things you might click, which are highlighted as buttons on mouse-over. mode-line-emphasis for "non-interactive" things you don't click, which are always highlighted. 1. Do we really need both? (I am worried about face bloat.) 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be `mode-line-highlight'. 3. Can we make the one for buttons by means of `button' instead of having a separate face only for mode line buttons? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-03 21:04 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-04 17:37 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: > Yes. mode-line-highlight (as now) for things you might click, which are > highlighted as buttons on mouse-over. mode-line-emphasis for > "non-interactive" things you don't click, which are always highlighted. > > 1. Do we really need both? (I am worried about face bloat.) No. vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator can not apply a 'face property for all I care. (I knew this worry about "face bloat" would come up. I don't understand it.) > 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be > `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be > `mode-line-highlight'. This would be an incompatible change to the use of the existing mode-line-highlight face. > 3. Can we make the one for buttons by means of `button' > instead of having a separate face only for mode line buttons? I'll say, once again, that the mode-line has a different colour scheme to the buffer. Trying to re-use buffer faces in the mode-line can look very poor, as at present with vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator. I've said all I have to say on this. I've said why the current choice is bad, and I've offered two alternatives (using no 'face at all, or a new one). I'll implement either. But please let's do something, because the current behaviour is broken. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 21:04 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-04 17:37 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-04 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: nickrob, emacs-devel > 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be > `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be > `mode-line-highlight'. This would be an incompatible change to the use of the existing mode-line-highlight face. Yes, but it is better to have a small incompatible change in a minor feature than have it remain badly named. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 21:04 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris @ 2008-03-03 23:27 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-03 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Glenn Morris, nickrob, emacs-devel > Yes. mode-line-highlight (as now) for things you might click, which are > highlighted as buttons on mouse-over. mode-line-emphasis for > "non-interactive" things you don't click, which are always highlighted. > > 1. Do we really need both? (I am worried about face bloat.) > > 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be > `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be > `mode-line-highlight'. `mode-line-highlight' servers the same purpose as its counterpart `highlight' that historically is used to temporarily highlight text during mouse-overs. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-04 17:38 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-04 19:29 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-04 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel > 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be > `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be > `mode-line-highlight'. `mode-line-highlight' servers the same purpose as its counterpart `highlight' that historically is used to temporarily highlight text during mouse-overs. They do not seem similar to me. `highlight' is used for highlighting text that is always present, and could be used on any text. My understanding is that `mode-line-highlight' is proposed for use on a particular notice that will never appear without that. Since now Richard argued even for using no mode line indication at all, bold doesn't seem too bad. It is not strong and still helps to notice the status of the vc command. I am not arguing strongly against it. Sometimes it is worth making a new face. I just want people not to do this hastily. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-04 19:29 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-04 22:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-04 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel > > 2. If we need both, the name of the one for buttons should be > > `mode-line-button' and the one for emphasis should be > > `mode-line-highlight'. > > `mode-line-highlight' servers the same purpose as its counterpart > `highlight' that historically is used to temporarily highlight text > during mouse-overs. > > They do not seem similar to me. `highlight' is used for highlighting > text that is always present, and could be used on any text. `mode-line-highlight' is currently used for the same purposes on the mode line - for highlighting text that is always present on the mode line. > My understanding is that `mode-line-highlight' is proposed for use on > a particular notice that will never appear without that. It seems no one proposes using `mode-line-highlight' on a particular notice on the mode line. On the contrary, a new face was proposed to use for such notices that will never appear without that. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-04 19:29 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov @ 2008-03-04 22:33 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-04 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, rms, emacs-devel > It seems no one proposes using `mode-line-highlight' on a particular > notice on the mode line. On the contrary, a new face was proposed > to use for such notices that will never appear without that. Indeed mode-line-emphasis sounds good to me, Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-04 19:29 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-04 22:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-05 21:33 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2008-03-05 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: rgm, nickrob, emacs-devel > They do not seem similar to me. `highlight' is used for highlighting > text that is always present, and could be used on any text. `mode-line-highlight' is currently used for the same purposes on the mode line - for highlighting text that is always present on the mode line. After checking the code, I think you are right. Someone else compared `mode-line-highlight' to buttons, so I based what I said on that, but now I think that isn't really so. This text is only partly like a button. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-01 22:19 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-01 22:26 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-02 5:53 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-02 6:15 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 1 sibling, 1 reply; 68+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-02 5:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Nick Roberts, emacs-devel >> > > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" >> > > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face Why would `font-lock-variable-name-face' be a good face for it? It seems completely arbitrary. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
* Re: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator 2008-03-02 5:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier @ 2008-03-02 6:15 ` Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 0 replies; 68+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2008-03-02 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel > >> > > > ! (propertize " [waiting...]" > >> > > > ! 'face 'font-lock-variable-name-face > > Why would `font-lock-variable-name-face' be a good face for it? > It seems completely arbitrary. Suggest a better alternative then (Glenn already has). -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 68+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-03-11 20:24 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 68+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-02-25 12:46 vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-02-25 20:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-02-26 4:11 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-02-26 7:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-03-01 22:19 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-01 22:26 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-03-01 22:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-02 16:12 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-03 1:57 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-03 17:13 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 21:23 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-02 17:25 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-02 18:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 18:58 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-04 18:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-05 21:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 3:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-07 3:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Miles Bader 2008-03-07 17:46 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 18:05 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv 2008-03-07 18:50 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-07 22:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 2008-03-08 7:03 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Jan Djärv 2008-03-08 17:39 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-08 18:57 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Reiner Steib 2008-03-08 19:29 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here David Kastrup 2008-03-08 19:35 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-08 19:40 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-08 21:33 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-08 21:39 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-08 21:59 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-08 23:41 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-08 23:58 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 0:29 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 10:10 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 15:02 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 16:39 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 17:57 ` Juri Linkov 2008-03-10 6:12 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-11 0:20 ` David Kastrup 2008-03-09 19:07 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-10 3:02 ` Stefan Monnier 2008-03-10 6:11 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-10 22:07 ` Glenn Morris 2008-03-11 20:24 ` Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 20:53 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here (was: vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator) Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 22:39 ` Diffs between %s and %s end here Reiner Steib 2008-03-08 19:18 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-09 17:10 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-09 16:40 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-07 3:55 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Dan Nicolaescu 2008-03-03 1:56 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-03 18:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 21:04 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Glenn Morris 2008-03-04 17:37 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-03 23:27 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-04 17:38 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-04 19:29 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Juri Linkov 2008-03-04 22:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 2008-03-05 21:33 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Richard Stallman 2008-03-02 5:53 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Stefan Monnier 2008-03-02 6:15 ` vc-set-mode-line-busy-indicator Nick Roberts
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