bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

Consider the following change of `encode-time' calling convention: last 
3 elements of the TIME argument as a list should be optional. I mean 
IGNORED, DST, and ZONE.

      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil -1 nil))
      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022)) ; currently causes an error

Since Emacs-27 time fields as separated arguments are considered 
obsolete for calls of `encode-time'. Org mode keeps compatibility with 
Emacs-26 where passing all time components as a single list is not 
supported. Moreover, some time ago an attempt to use new style argument 
in the Emacs git repository (the change was never committed to the Org 
repository) caused a bug with handling of daylight saving time. See
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=54731
for more details, the commit reverted the changes is 8ef37913d3.

I have tried to create a compatibility wrapper for Org mode that chooses 
calling convention of `encode-time' in dependence of Emacs version. I 
have realized that there are enough call sites where components of time 
are gathered from scratch and not obtained from e.g. prior call of 
`decode-time'. It is inconvenient to add 3 extra mandatory components at 
the each place. I am reluctant to add a helper that accepts 6-components 
list and adds 3 fields to the end of the list. I am afraid that it may 
affect e.g. agenda performance.

 From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
`encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
more convenient in use.

Old-style separate arguments for time components permits optional fields 
ended with ZONE. I do not mind that it should be deprecated since it is 
the source of surprise similar to the mentioned bug. Daylight saving 
time field matters only as a list component and ignored as a separate 
argument (by the way, it should be stressed in the docstring). It is too 
easy to confuse list and separate arguments in the code since both ways 
works but with a subtle difference: nil does not mean ignore the value.

      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil)) ; wrong!
      (encode-time 0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil) ; no problem

In the Org code it is unsure which way to call `encode-time' is more 
convenient. In a half of the cases a list is obtained from another 
function, but another half is timestamp built from computed components. 
Unless the inconsistency with DST I would say that both ways to call the 
function should be supported.

So my proposal is to not force Org mode to use new calling convention 
for `encode-time' till DST and ZONE list components will became optional 
ones in a released Emacs version. For a while minor changes in a couple 
of places in Org code should make it immune to accidental usage of new 
calling convention (modulo compatibility).

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4044 bytes --]

On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:

>      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil)) ; wrong! 

Yes, and I see a couple of places (org-parse-time-string, 
org-read-date-analyze) where Org mode returns the wrong decoded 
timestamps, ending in (nil nil nil) even though the DST flag is unknown 
so they should end in (nil -1 nil). Please see attached proposed patch 
which fixes this (also see below).


> Since Emacs-27 time fields as separated arguments are considered 
> obsolete for calls of `encode-time'.

Obsolescent, not obsolete. The old form still works and it's not going 
away any time soon. If the efficiency concerns you mention are 
significant, we should keep the old form indefinitely.


> t is inconvenient to add 3 extra mandatory components at 
> the each place.

Then let's keep using the obsolescent calling convention for places 
where that's convenient. Perhaps we should change the documentation to 
say "older" instead of "obsolescent".


>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
> more convenient in use.

Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.


> Daylight saving 
> time field matters only as a list component and ignored as a separate 
> argument (by the way, it should be stressed in the docstring).

Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

The reason -1 is the default in the obsolete API is backward 
compatibility. If we could have designed the API from scratch it would 
have been different.


> In the Org code it is unsure which way to call `encode-time' is more 
> convenient. In a half of the cases a list is obtained from another 
> function, but another half is timestamp built from computed components. 
> Unless the inconsistency with DST I would say that both ways to call the 
> function should be supported.

Yes, that's the idea.


> So my proposal is to not force Org mode to use new calling convention 
> for `encode-time' till DST and ZONE list components will became optional 
> ones in a released Emacs version.

This would delay things for ten years or so, no? We'd have to wait until 
Org mode supported only Emacs 29 and later.

Instead, I suggest that we stick with what we have when that's cleaner. 
That is, Org mode can use the obsolescent encode-time API when it's 
cleaner to do that.

It would be helpful for Org mode to use the new encode-time form in some 
cases, when the new form is cleaner. It's easy to support the new form 
efficiently even in older Emacs, using a compatibility shim. This is 
also in the attached proposed patch.

This patch has a few other minor cleanups in the area.

I haven't installed the patch, or tested it other than via 'make check'.


PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
"PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 10568 bytes --]

From 094345e10ad45e06f7b32e2f8017592210f43463 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 00:17:09 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] Improve Org usage of timestamps
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The main thing is to follow the (encode-time X) convention where
X’s DST component of nil means standard time, -1 means unknown.
* lisp/org/ol.el (org-store-link): Prefer plain (encode-time ...)
to (apply 'encode-time ...), for speed.
* lisp/org/org-clock.el (org-clock-sum)
(org-clock-update-time-maybe):
Prefer org-time-string-to-seconds to doing it by hand.
* lisp/org/org-colview.el (org-colview-construct-allowed-dates):
* lisp/org/org.el (org-time-string-to-time, org-timestamp-change):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of org-parse-time-string.  They're equivalent and
the former is a bit cleaner.
* lisp/org/org-compat.el (org-encode-time-1): New function.
* lisp/org/org-macro.el (org-macro--vc-modified-time):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of parse-time-string.  They're equivalent and the
former is a bit cleaner.
* lisp/org/org-macs.el (org-2ft):
Prefer org-time-string-to-seconds to doing it by hand.
(org-parse-time-string): Return unknown DST, not standard time.
(org-matcher-time): Omit an unnecessary call to ‘append’.
* lisp/org/org-table.el (org-table-eval-formula):
Prefer org-time-string-to-time to doing it by hand.
* lisp/org/org.el (org-add-planning-info, org-read-date)
(org-read-date-display, org-display-custom-time):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of org-read-date-analyze.  They're equivalent and
the former is a bit cleaner.
(org-read-date-analyze): Return a timestamp with a DST flag
of -1 (unknown) rather than nil (standard time).
---
 lisp/org/ol.el          |  4 +---
 lisp/org/org-clock.el   | 17 ++++++-----------
 lisp/org/org-colview.el |  2 +-
 lisp/org/org-compat.el  | 21 +++++++++++++++++++++
 lisp/org/org-macro.el   |  2 +-
 lisp/org/org-macs.el    |  8 ++++----
 lisp/org/org-table.el   |  3 +--
 lisp/org/org.el         | 14 +++++++-------
 8 files changed, 42 insertions(+), 29 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/org/ol.el b/lisp/org/ol.el
index a03d85f618..fe6e97e928 100644
--- a/lisp/org/ol.el
+++ b/lisp/org/ol.el
@@ -1575,9 +1575,7 @@ org-store-link
 	  (setq link
 		(format-time-string
 		 (car org-time-stamp-formats)
-		 (apply 'encode-time
-			(list 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd)
-			      nil nil nil))))
+		 (encode-time 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd))))
 	  (org-link-store-props :type "calendar" :date cd)))
 
        ((eq major-mode 'w3-mode)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-clock.el b/lisp/org/org-clock.el
index 7395669109..24d2b61b48 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-clock.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-clock.el
@@ -1903,13 +1903,10 @@ org-clock-sum
 	  (cond
 	   ((match-end 2)
 	    ;; Two time stamps.
-	    (let* ((ts (float-time
-			(apply #'encode-time
-			       (save-match-data
-				 (org-parse-time-string (match-string 2))))))
-		   (te (float-time
-			(apply #'encode-time
-			       (org-parse-time-string (match-string 3)))))
+	    (let* ((ss (match-string 2))
+		   (se (match-string 3))
+		   (ts (org-time-string-to-seconds ss))
+		   (te (org-time-string-to-seconds se))
 		   (dt (- (if tend (min te tend) te)
 			  (if tstart (max ts tstart) ts))))
 	      (when (> dt 0) (cl-incf t1 (floor dt 60)))))
@@ -3041,10 +3038,8 @@ org-clock-update-time-maybe
 	  (end-of-line 1)
 	  (setq ts (match-string 1)
 		te (match-string 3))
-	  (setq s (- (float-time
-		      (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string te)))
-		     (float-time
-		      (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string ts))))
+	  (setq s (- (org-time-string-to-seconds te)
+		     (org-time-string-to-seconds ts))
 		neg (< s 0)
 		s (abs s)
 		h (floor (/ s 3600))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-colview.el b/lisp/org/org-colview.el
index 829fcbbe3f..190c2d5a4f 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-colview.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-colview.el
@@ -782,7 +782,7 @@ org-colview-construct-allowed-dates
       (setq time-after (copy-sequence time))
       (setf (nth 3 time-before) (1- (nth 3 time)))
       (setf (nth 3 time-after) (1+ (nth 3 time)))
-      (mapcar (lambda (x) (format-time-string fmt (apply #'encode-time x)))
+      (mapcar (lambda (x) (format-time-string fmt (org-encode-time-1 x)))
 	      (list time-before time time-after)))))
 
 (defun org-columns-open-link (&optional arg)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
@@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
   (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
     (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
 
+;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
+(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
+    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
+      (encode-time time))
+  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
+    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
+      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
+	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
+      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
+	    (dst (car dst-zone))
+	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
+	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
+	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
+		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
+	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
+	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
+	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
+					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
+					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))
+	etime))))
+
 ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
 (if (version< emacs-version "27")
     (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macro.el b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
index 0921f3aa27..b8e4346002 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-macro.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
@@ -378,7 +378,7 @@ org-macro--vc-modified-time
 				  (buffer-substring
 				   (point) (line-end-position)))))
 		       (when (cl-some #'identity time)
-			 (setq date (apply #'encode-time time))))))))
+			 (setq date (org-encode-time-1 time))))))))
 	      (let ((proc (get-buffer-process buf)))
 		(while (and proc (accept-process-output proc .5 nil t)))))
 	  (kill-buffer buf))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macs.el b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
index b10725bd52..0916da89ac 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-macs.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
@@ -1185,7 +1185,7 @@ org-2ft
    ((numberp s) s)
    ((stringp s)
     (condition-case nil
-	(float-time (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string s)))
+	(org-time-string-to-seconds s)
       (error 0)))
    (t 0)))
 
@@ -1242,7 +1242,7 @@ org-parse-time-string
 	(string-to-number (match-string 4 s))
 	(string-to-number (match-string 3 s))
 	(string-to-number (match-string 2 s))
-	nil nil nil))
+	nil -1 nil))
 
 (defun org-matcher-time (s)
   "Interpret a time comparison value S as a floating point time.
@@ -1252,8 +1252,8 @@ org-matcher-time
 \"<tomorrow>\", and \"<yesterday>\".
 
 Return 0. if S is not recognized as a valid value."
-  (let ((today (float-time (apply #'encode-time
-				  (append '(0 0 0) (nthcdr 3 (decode-time)))))))
+  (let ((today (float-time (apply #'encode-time 0 0 0
+				  (nthcdr 3 (decode-time))))))
     (save-match-data
       (cond
        ((string= s "<now>") (float-time))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-table.el b/lisp/org/org-table.el
index c4daed1665..a192fb991b 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-table.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-table.el
@@ -2606,8 +2606,7 @@ org-table-eval-formula
 		     (format-time-string
 		      (org-time-stamp-format
 		       (string-match-p "[0-9]\\{1,2\\}:[0-9]\\{2\\}" ts))
-		      (apply #'encode-time
-			     (save-match-data (org-parse-time-string ts))))))
+		      (save-match-data (org-time-string-to-time ts)))))
 		 form t t))
 
 	  (setq ev (if (and duration (string-match "^[0-9]+:[0-9]+\\(?::[0-9]+\\)?$" form))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org.el b/lisp/org/org.el
index d656a51591..1bceb0f53a 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org.el
@@ -10792,7 +10792,7 @@ org-add-planning-info
 	    (if (stringp time)
 		;; This is a string (relative or absolute), set
 		;; proper date.
-		(apply #'encode-time
+		(org-encode-time-1
 		       (org-read-date-analyze
 			time default-time (decode-time default-time)))
 	      ;; If necessary, get the time from the user
@@ -14059,7 +14059,7 @@ org-read-date
 		 "range representable on this machine"))
       (ding))
 
-    (setq final (apply #'encode-time final))
+    (setq final (org-encode-time-1 final))
 
     (setq org-read-date-final-answer ans)
 
@@ -14096,7 +14096,7 @@ org-read-date-display
 			  (and (boundp 'org-time-was-given) org-time-was-given))
 		      (cdr fmts)
 		    (car fmts)))
-	     (txt (format-time-string fmt (apply #'encode-time f)))
+	     (txt (format-time-string fmt (org-encode-time-1 f)))
 	     (txt (if org-read-date-inactive (concat "[" (substring txt 1 -1) "]") txt))
 	     (txt (concat "=> " txt)))
 	(when (and org-end-time-was-given
@@ -14334,7 +14334,7 @@ org-read-date-analyze
 	 (setq year (nth 5 org-defdecode))
 	 (setq org-read-date-analyze-forced-year t))))
     (setq org-read-date-analyze-futurep futurep)
-    (list second minute hour day month year)))
+    (list second minute hour day month year nil -1 nil)))
 
 (defvar parse-time-weekdays)
 (defun org-read-date-get-relative (s today default)
@@ -14470,7 +14470,7 @@ org-display-custom-time
 	  time (org-fix-decoded-time t1)
 	  str (org-add-props
 		  (format-time-string
-		   (substring tf 1 -1) (apply 'encode-time time))
+		   (substring tf 1 -1) (org-encode-time-1 time))
 		  nil 'mouse-face 'highlight))
     (put-text-property beg end 'display str)))
 
@@ -14725,7 +14725,7 @@ org-make-tdiff-string
 
 (defun org-time-string-to-time (s)
   "Convert timestamp string S into internal time."
-  (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string s)))
+  (org-encode-time-1 (org-parse-time-string s)))
 
 (defun org-time-string-to-seconds (s)
   "Convert a timestamp string S into a number of seconds."
@@ -15155,7 +15155,7 @@ org-timestamp-change
 	  (setcar time0 (or (car time0) 0))
 	  (setcar (nthcdr 1 time0) (or (nth 1 time0) 0))
 	  (setcar (nthcdr 2 time0) (or (nth 2 time0) 0))
-	  (setq time (apply 'encode-time time0))))
+	  (setq time (org-encode-time-1 time0))))
       ;; Insert the new time-stamp, and ensure point stays in the same
       ;; category as before (i.e. not after the last position in that
       ;; category).
-- 
2.35.1

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4044 bytes --]

On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:

>      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil)) ; wrong! 

Yes, and I see a couple of places (org-parse-time-string, 
org-read-date-analyze) where Org mode returns the wrong decoded 
timestamps, ending in (nil nil nil) even though the DST flag is unknown 
so they should end in (nil -1 nil). Please see attached proposed patch 
which fixes this (also see below).


> Since Emacs-27 time fields as separated arguments are considered 
> obsolete for calls of `encode-time'.

Obsolescent, not obsolete. The old form still works and it's not going 
away any time soon. If the efficiency concerns you mention are 
significant, we should keep the old form indefinitely.


> t is inconvenient to add 3 extra mandatory components at 
> the each place.

Then let's keep using the obsolescent calling convention for places 
where that's convenient. Perhaps we should change the documentation to 
say "older" instead of "obsolescent".


>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
> more convenient in use.

Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.


> Daylight saving 
> time field matters only as a list component and ignored as a separate 
> argument (by the way, it should be stressed in the docstring).

Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

The reason -1 is the default in the obsolete API is backward 
compatibility. If we could have designed the API from scratch it would 
have been different.


> In the Org code it is unsure which way to call `encode-time' is more 
> convenient. In a half of the cases a list is obtained from another 
> function, but another half is timestamp built from computed components. 
> Unless the inconsistency with DST I would say that both ways to call the 
> function should be supported.

Yes, that's the idea.


> So my proposal is to not force Org mode to use new calling convention 
> for `encode-time' till DST and ZONE list components will became optional 
> ones in a released Emacs version.

This would delay things for ten years or so, no? We'd have to wait until 
Org mode supported only Emacs 29 and later.

Instead, I suggest that we stick with what we have when that's cleaner. 
That is, Org mode can use the obsolescent encode-time API when it's 
cleaner to do that.

It would be helpful for Org mode to use the new encode-time form in some 
cases, when the new form is cleaner. It's easy to support the new form 
efficiently even in older Emacs, using a compatibility shim. This is 
also in the attached proposed patch.

This patch has a few other minor cleanups in the area.

I haven't installed the patch, or tested it other than via 'make check'.


PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
"PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 10568 bytes --]

From 094345e10ad45e06f7b32e2f8017592210f43463 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 00:17:09 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] Improve Org usage of timestamps
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The main thing is to follow the (encode-time X) convention where
X’s DST component of nil means standard time, -1 means unknown.
* lisp/org/ol.el (org-store-link): Prefer plain (encode-time ...)
to (apply 'encode-time ...), for speed.
* lisp/org/org-clock.el (org-clock-sum)
(org-clock-update-time-maybe):
Prefer org-time-string-to-seconds to doing it by hand.
* lisp/org/org-colview.el (org-colview-construct-allowed-dates):
* lisp/org/org.el (org-time-string-to-time, org-timestamp-change):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of org-parse-time-string.  They're equivalent and
the former is a bit cleaner.
* lisp/org/org-compat.el (org-encode-time-1): New function.
* lisp/org/org-macro.el (org-macro--vc-modified-time):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of parse-time-string.  They're equivalent and the
former is a bit cleaner.
* lisp/org/org-macs.el (org-2ft):
Prefer org-time-string-to-seconds to doing it by hand.
(org-parse-time-string): Return unknown DST, not standard time.
(org-matcher-time): Omit an unnecessary call to ‘append’.
* lisp/org/org-table.el (org-table-eval-formula):
Prefer org-time-string-to-time to doing it by hand.
* lisp/org/org.el (org-add-planning-info, org-read-date)
(org-read-date-display, org-display-custom-time):
Prefer (org-encode-time-1 X) to (apply #'encode-time X) when X is
the output of org-read-date-analyze.  They're equivalent and
the former is a bit cleaner.
(org-read-date-analyze): Return a timestamp with a DST flag
of -1 (unknown) rather than nil (standard time).
---
 lisp/org/ol.el          |  4 +---
 lisp/org/org-clock.el   | 17 ++++++-----------
 lisp/org/org-colview.el |  2 +-
 lisp/org/org-compat.el  | 21 +++++++++++++++++++++
 lisp/org/org-macro.el   |  2 +-
 lisp/org/org-macs.el    |  8 ++++----
 lisp/org/org-table.el   |  3 +--
 lisp/org/org.el         | 14 +++++++-------
 8 files changed, 42 insertions(+), 29 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/org/ol.el b/lisp/org/ol.el
index a03d85f618..fe6e97e928 100644
--- a/lisp/org/ol.el
+++ b/lisp/org/ol.el
@@ -1575,9 +1575,7 @@ org-store-link
 	  (setq link
 		(format-time-string
 		 (car org-time-stamp-formats)
-		 (apply 'encode-time
-			(list 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd)
-			      nil nil nil))))
+		 (encode-time 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd))))
 	  (org-link-store-props :type "calendar" :date cd)))
 
        ((eq major-mode 'w3-mode)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-clock.el b/lisp/org/org-clock.el
index 7395669109..24d2b61b48 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-clock.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-clock.el
@@ -1903,13 +1903,10 @@ org-clock-sum
 	  (cond
 	   ((match-end 2)
 	    ;; Two time stamps.
-	    (let* ((ts (float-time
-			(apply #'encode-time
-			       (save-match-data
-				 (org-parse-time-string (match-string 2))))))
-		   (te (float-time
-			(apply #'encode-time
-			       (org-parse-time-string (match-string 3)))))
+	    (let* ((ss (match-string 2))
+		   (se (match-string 3))
+		   (ts (org-time-string-to-seconds ss))
+		   (te (org-time-string-to-seconds se))
 		   (dt (- (if tend (min te tend) te)
 			  (if tstart (max ts tstart) ts))))
 	      (when (> dt 0) (cl-incf t1 (floor dt 60)))))
@@ -3041,10 +3038,8 @@ org-clock-update-time-maybe
 	  (end-of-line 1)
 	  (setq ts (match-string 1)
 		te (match-string 3))
-	  (setq s (- (float-time
-		      (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string te)))
-		     (float-time
-		      (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string ts))))
+	  (setq s (- (org-time-string-to-seconds te)
+		     (org-time-string-to-seconds ts))
 		neg (< s 0)
 		s (abs s)
 		h (floor (/ s 3600))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-colview.el b/lisp/org/org-colview.el
index 829fcbbe3f..190c2d5a4f 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-colview.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-colview.el
@@ -782,7 +782,7 @@ org-colview-construct-allowed-dates
       (setq time-after (copy-sequence time))
       (setf (nth 3 time-before) (1- (nth 3 time)))
       (setf (nth 3 time-after) (1+ (nth 3 time)))
-      (mapcar (lambda (x) (format-time-string fmt (apply #'encode-time x)))
+      (mapcar (lambda (x) (format-time-string fmt (org-encode-time-1 x)))
 	      (list time-before time time-after)))))
 
 (defun org-columns-open-link (&optional arg)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
@@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
   (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
     (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
 
+;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
+(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
+    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
+      (encode-time time))
+  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
+    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
+      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
+	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
+      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
+	    (dst (car dst-zone))
+	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
+	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
+	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
+		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
+	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
+	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
+	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
+					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
+					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))
+	etime))))
+
 ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
 (if (version< emacs-version "27")
     (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macro.el b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
index 0921f3aa27..b8e4346002 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-macro.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
@@ -378,7 +378,7 @@ org-macro--vc-modified-time
 				  (buffer-substring
 				   (point) (line-end-position)))))
 		       (when (cl-some #'identity time)
-			 (setq date (apply #'encode-time time))))))))
+			 (setq date (org-encode-time-1 time))))))))
 	      (let ((proc (get-buffer-process buf)))
 		(while (and proc (accept-process-output proc .5 nil t)))))
 	  (kill-buffer buf))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macs.el b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
index b10725bd52..0916da89ac 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-macs.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
@@ -1185,7 +1185,7 @@ org-2ft
    ((numberp s) s)
    ((stringp s)
     (condition-case nil
-	(float-time (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string s)))
+	(org-time-string-to-seconds s)
       (error 0)))
    (t 0)))
 
@@ -1242,7 +1242,7 @@ org-parse-time-string
 	(string-to-number (match-string 4 s))
 	(string-to-number (match-string 3 s))
 	(string-to-number (match-string 2 s))
-	nil nil nil))
+	nil -1 nil))
 
 (defun org-matcher-time (s)
   "Interpret a time comparison value S as a floating point time.
@@ -1252,8 +1252,8 @@ org-matcher-time
 \"<tomorrow>\", and \"<yesterday>\".
 
 Return 0. if S is not recognized as a valid value."
-  (let ((today (float-time (apply #'encode-time
-				  (append '(0 0 0) (nthcdr 3 (decode-time)))))))
+  (let ((today (float-time (apply #'encode-time 0 0 0
+				  (nthcdr 3 (decode-time))))))
     (save-match-data
       (cond
        ((string= s "<now>") (float-time))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org-table.el b/lisp/org/org-table.el
index c4daed1665..a192fb991b 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-table.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-table.el
@@ -2606,8 +2606,7 @@ org-table-eval-formula
 		     (format-time-string
 		      (org-time-stamp-format
 		       (string-match-p "[0-9]\\{1,2\\}:[0-9]\\{2\\}" ts))
-		      (apply #'encode-time
-			     (save-match-data (org-parse-time-string ts))))))
+		      (save-match-data (org-time-string-to-time ts)))))
 		 form t t))
 
 	  (setq ev (if (and duration (string-match "^[0-9]+:[0-9]+\\(?::[0-9]+\\)?$" form))
diff --git a/lisp/org/org.el b/lisp/org/org.el
index d656a51591..1bceb0f53a 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org.el
@@ -10792,7 +10792,7 @@ org-add-planning-info
 	    (if (stringp time)
 		;; This is a string (relative or absolute), set
 		;; proper date.
-		(apply #'encode-time
+		(org-encode-time-1
 		       (org-read-date-analyze
 			time default-time (decode-time default-time)))
 	      ;; If necessary, get the time from the user
@@ -14059,7 +14059,7 @@ org-read-date
 		 "range representable on this machine"))
       (ding))
 
-    (setq final (apply #'encode-time final))
+    (setq final (org-encode-time-1 final))
 
     (setq org-read-date-final-answer ans)
 
@@ -14096,7 +14096,7 @@ org-read-date-display
 			  (and (boundp 'org-time-was-given) org-time-was-given))
 		      (cdr fmts)
 		    (car fmts)))
-	     (txt (format-time-string fmt (apply #'encode-time f)))
+	     (txt (format-time-string fmt (org-encode-time-1 f)))
 	     (txt (if org-read-date-inactive (concat "[" (substring txt 1 -1) "]") txt))
 	     (txt (concat "=> " txt)))
 	(when (and org-end-time-was-given
@@ -14334,7 +14334,7 @@ org-read-date-analyze
 	 (setq year (nth 5 org-defdecode))
 	 (setq org-read-date-analyze-forced-year t))))
     (setq org-read-date-analyze-futurep futurep)
-    (list second minute hour day month year)))
+    (list second minute hour day month year nil -1 nil)))
 
 (defvar parse-time-weekdays)
 (defun org-read-date-get-relative (s today default)
@@ -14470,7 +14470,7 @@ org-display-custom-time
 	  time (org-fix-decoded-time t1)
 	  str (org-add-props
 		  (format-time-string
-		   (substring tf 1 -1) (apply 'encode-time time))
+		   (substring tf 1 -1) (org-encode-time-1 time))
 		  nil 'mouse-face 'highlight))
     (put-text-property beg end 'display str)))
 
@@ -14725,7 +14725,7 @@ org-make-tdiff-string
 
 (defun org-time-string-to-time (s)
   "Convert timestamp string S into internal time."
-  (apply #'encode-time (org-parse-time-string s)))
+  (org-encode-time-1 (org-parse-time-string s)))
 
 (defun org-time-string-to-seconds (s)
   "Convert a timestamp string S into a number of seconds."
@@ -15155,7 +15155,7 @@ org-timestamp-change
 	  (setcar time0 (or (car time0) 0))
 	  (setcar (nthcdr 1 time0) (or (nth 1 time0) 0))
 	  (setcar (nthcdr 2 time0) (or (nth 2 time0) 0))
-	  (setq time (apply 'encode-time time0))))
+	  (setq time (org-encode-time-1 time0))))
       ;; Insert the new time-stamp, and ensure point stays in the same
       ;; category as before (i.e. not after the last position in that
       ;; category).
-- 
2.35.1

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

Paul,

I am sorry that I forced you to make more changes in the Org code. While 
I was filing this bug, my intention was to add something like "if 
(!NILP(...)) { .... }" around several lines in src/timefns.c.

Now we should decide whether we leave this bug for possible changes in 
the `encode-time' implementation and moving the discussion related to 
further changes in Org to the emacs-orgmode mail list or we change the 
title of this bug and maybe create another one for `encode-time'.

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil)) ; wrong! 
> 
> Yes, and I see a couple of places (org-parse-time-string, 
> org-read-date-analyze) where Org mode returns the wrong decoded 
> timestamps, ending in (nil nil nil)

I see you even change `org-store-link' that has the same problem.

> Obsolescent, not obsolete. The old form still works and it's not going 
> away any time soon. If the efficiency concerns you mention are 
> significant, we should keep the old form indefinitely.

I am against preserving the old form because it ignores the DST field. 
It is confusing and error prone to be a part of a well designed interface.

Actually I have a draft of `org-encode-time' macro that transforms 6 
elements list to 9 elements one at load or compile time, so it should 
not hurt runtime performance. I have not tried to replace all calls of 
the `encode-time' function yet however. But I still prefer to drop 6/9 
elements branch even if it may happen a decade later.
>>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
>> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
>> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
>> more convenient in use.
> 
> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
> This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
> calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
> 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
> in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.

I do not see your point here. Old calling convention did not allow to 
specify DST flag at all and it was a problem. With the list argument 
even if last 3 fields are optional, it will not prevent adding DST value 
when it is known from some source. I think, requiring 3 extra fields 
when DST value is unknown is too hing price just to make a developer 
aware that it may be ambiguous (moreover it will not work without a 
clear statement in the docstring).

Org timestamps does not allow to specify timezone abbreviation such as 
PDT/PST to distinguish DST. If it were added then users would have false 
impression of full time zones support in Org. It would require huge 
amount of work. So guessed DST is the best that often can be offered.

>> Daylight saving time field matters only as a list component and 
>> ignored as a separate argument (by the way, it should be stressed in 
>> the docstring).
> 
> Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
> topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

My point is that subtle breaking changes must be prominent and hard to 
ignore. I do not have yet ready phases and you highlighted another issue 
missed in the docstring.

>> So my proposal is to not force Org mode to use new calling convention 
>> for `encode-time' till DST and ZONE list components will became 
>> optional ones in a released Emacs version.
> 
> This would delay things for ten years or so, no? We'd have to wait until 
> Org mode supported only Emacs 29 and later.

I do not think it is a problem.

> Instead, I suggest that we stick with what we have when that's cleaner. 
> That is, Org mode can use the obsolescent encode-time API when it's 
> cleaner to do that.

I considered such approach to defense against "aggressive" modernizing 
of Emacs code. Then I decided it is better to allow to deprecate one of 
the styles of calling `encode-time'. I tried to express it in the 
original report and above.

> I haven't installed the patch, or tested it other than via 'make check'.

Org has its own repository and changes should be committed there at first.

Org has unit tests, see
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/tree/testing/README
you changes should be accompanied by some adjustments in test expectations.

I believe that at least in some cases Org test suite should be run for 
the bundled version of Org after Emacs builds. There are may be 
copyright issues with including the tests into the Emacs source tree. 
Maybe some changes in tests were accepted without paperwork.

> PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
> is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
> not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
> International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
> uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
> representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
> exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
> when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
> calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
> best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
> that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
> "PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

I agree with you that dates should not be represented as timestamps and 
date modifications (day, week, month, year increments and decrements) 
should be performed by dedicated functions. I even had 2011-12-30 
example in my notes. However I expect that underlying normalization of 
date-time fields may mitigate such issues to some extent.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> @@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
>    (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
>      (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
>  
> +;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
> +    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +      (encode-time time))
> +  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
> +      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
> +	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
> +      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
> +	    (dst (car dst-zone))
> +	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
> +	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
> +	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
> +		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
> +	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
> +	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
> +	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
> +					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
> +					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))
> +	etime))))
> +
>  ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
>  (if (version< emacs-version "27")
>      (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macro.el b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
> index 0921f3aa27..b8e4346002 100644

I do not have complicated agenda setup to profile performance after such 
change. I will post my simple macro when we decide to continue 
discussion on debbugs or in a dedicated thread of the emacs-orgmode list.

In my opinion, the code obtaining DST value requires unit tests.

I like you idea to reuse `org-time-string-to-seconds' in more places. My 
original plan was to use `org-time-string-to-time' there.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

I am sorry, I have realized that debbugs.gnu.org does not send copies to 
the addresses specified in the X-Debbugs-CC header of the original 
report. Now I am sending a copy of my earlier message to emacs-orgmode.

Please, add 54764@debbugs.gnu.org to replies to this message.

Paul,

I am sorry that I forced you to make more changes in the Org code. While 
I was filing this bug, my intention was to add something like "if 
(!NILP(...)) { .... }" around several lines in src/timefns.c.

Now we should decide whether we leave this bug for possible changes in 
the `encode-time' implementation and moving the discussion related to 
further changes in Org to the emacs-orgmode mail list or we change the 
title of this bug and maybe create another one for `encode-time'.

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>      (encode-time '(0 30 20 07 04 2022 nil nil nil)) ; wrong! 
> 
> Yes, and I see a couple of places (org-parse-time-string, 
> org-read-date-analyze) where Org mode returns the wrong decoded 
> timestamps, ending in (nil nil nil)

I see you even change `org-store-link' that has the same problem.

> Obsolescent, not obsolete. The old form still works and it's not going 
> away any time soon. If the efficiency concerns you mention are 
> significant, we should keep the old form indefinitely.

I am against preserving the old form because it ignores the DST field. 
It is confusing and error prone to be a part of a well designed interface.

Actually I have a draft of `org-encode-time' macro that transforms 6 
elements list to 9 elements one at load or compile time, so it should 
not hurt runtime performance. I have not tried to replace all calls of 
the `encode-time' function yet however. But I still prefer to drop 6/9 
elements branch even if it may happen a decade later.
>>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
>> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
>> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
>> more convenient in use.
> 
> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
> This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
> calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
> 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
> in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.

I do not see your point here. Old calling convention did not allow to 
specify DST flag at all and it was a problem. With the list argument 
even if last 3 fields are optional, it will not prevent adding DST value 
when it is known from some source. I think, requiring 3 extra fields 
when DST value is unknown is too hing price just to make a developer 
aware that it may be ambiguous (moreover it will not work without a 
clear statement in the docstring).

Org timestamps does not allow to specify timezone abbreviation such as 
PDT/PST to distinguish DST. If it were added then users would have false 
impression of full time zones support in Org. It would require huge 
amount of work. So guessed DST is the best that often can be offered.

>> Daylight saving time field matters only as a list component and 
>> ignored as a separate argument (by the way, it should be stressed in 
>> the docstring).
> 
> Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
> topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

My point is that subtle breaking changes must be prominent and hard to 
ignore. I do not have yet ready phases and you highlighted another issue 
missed in the docstring.

>> So my proposal is to not force Org mode to use new calling convention 
>> for `encode-time' till DST and ZONE list components will became 
>> optional ones in a released Emacs version.
> 
> This would delay things for ten years or so, no? We'd have to wait until 
> Org mode supported only Emacs 29 and later.

I do not think it is a problem.

> Instead, I suggest that we stick with what we have when that's cleaner. 
> That is, Org mode can use the obsolescent encode-time API when it's 
> cleaner to do that.

I considered such approach to defense against "aggressive" modernizing 
of Emacs code. Then I decided it is better to allow to deprecate one of 
the styles of calling `encode-time'. I tried to express it in the 
original report and above.

> I haven't installed the patch, or tested it other than via 'make check'.

Org has its own repository and changes should be committed there at first.

Org has unit tests, see
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/tree/testing/README
you changes should be accompanied by some adjustments in test expectations.

I believe that at least in some cases Org test suite should be run for 
the bundled version of Org after Emacs builds. There are may be 
copyright issues with including the tests into the Emacs source tree. 
Maybe some changes in tests were accepted without paperwork.

> PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
> is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
> not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
> International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
> uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
> representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
> exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
> when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
> calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
> best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
> that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
> "PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

I agree with you that dates should not be represented as timestamps and 
date modifications (day, week, month, year increments and decrements) 
should be performed by dedicated functions. I even had 2011-12-30 
example in my notes. However I expect that underlying normalization of 
date-time fields may mitigate such issues to some extent.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> @@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
>    (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
>      (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
>  
> +;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
> +    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +      (encode-time time))
> +  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
> +      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
> +	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
> +      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
> +	    (dst (car dst-zone))
> +	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
> +	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
> +	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
> +		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
> +	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
> +	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
> +	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
> +					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
> +					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))
> +	etime))))
> +
>  ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
>  (if (version< emacs-version "27")
>      (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macro.el b/lisp/org/org-macro.el
> index 0921f3aa27..b8e4346002 100644

I do not have complicated agenda setup to profile performance after such 
change. I will post my simple macro when we decide to continue 
discussion on debbugs or in a dedicated thread of the emacs-orgmode list.

In my opinion, the code obtaining DST value requires unit tests.

I like you idea to reuse `org-time-string-to-seconds' in more places. My 
original plan was to use `org-time-string-to-time' there.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
>> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
>> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
>> more convenient in use.
> 
> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
> This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
> calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
> 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
> in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.

Handling DST is a step forward, it is an important case. Unfortunately 
there are enough peculiarities in the time zoo. I do not think new 
interface can be used correctly in the following case of time transition 
with no change of DST:

#+name: encode-time-and-format
#+begin_src elisp :var time=nil :var tz=() :var dst=-1
   (let* ((seconds-year
	  (reverse (mapcar #'string-to-number (split-string time "[- :]"))))
	 (time-list (append seconds-year (list nil dst tz))))
     (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" (encode-time time-list) tz))
#+end_src

zdump -v Africa/Juba
...
Africa/Juba  Sun Jan 31 20:59:59 2021 UT = Sun Jan 31 23:59:59 2021 EAT 
isdst=0 gmtoff=10800
Africa/Juba  Sun Jan 31 21:00:00 2021 UT = Sun Jan 31 23:00:00 2021 CAT 
isdst=0 gmtoff=7200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst=-1)

#+RESULTS:
: 2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT +0200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst=())

#+RESULTS:
: 2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT +0200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst='t)
: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Specified time is not 
representable")


I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300. For you example with regular 
DST transition there is no any problem:


#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst=-1)

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PDT -0700

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst=())

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PST -0800

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst='t)

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PDT -0700

> PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
> is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
> not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
> International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
> uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
> representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
> exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
> when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
> calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
> best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
> that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
> "PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

Then `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and 
should not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous. However 
my opinion is that is should be possible to provide hints to 
`encode-time' to get deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> @@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
>    (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
>      (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
>  
> +;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
> +    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +      (encode-time time))
> +  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
> +      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
> +	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
> +      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
> +	    (dst (car dst-zone))
> +	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
> +	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
> +	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
> +		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
> +	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
> +	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
> +	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
> +					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
> +					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))

I am against this workaround. It fixes (to some extent) usual DST 
transitions, but it adds another bug

Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Apr  2 14:59:59 2022 UT = Sun Apr  3 01:59:59 
2022 +11 isdst=1 gmtoff=39600
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Apr  2 15:00:00 2022 UT = Sun Apr  3 01:30:00 
2022 +1030 isdst=0 gmtoff=37800
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Oct  1 15:29:59 2022 UT = Sun Oct  2 01:59:59 
2022 +1030 isdst=0 gmtoff=37800
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Oct  1 15:30:00 2022 UT = Sun Oct  2 02:30:00 
2022 +11 isdst=1 gmtoff=39600

> +	etime))))
> +
>  ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
>  (if (version< emacs-version "27")
>      (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>  From my point of view it is better to change implementation of 
>> `encode-time' so that it may accept 6-component list SECOND...YEAR. It 
>> should not add noticeable performance penalty but makes the function 
>> more convenient in use.
> 
> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to use incorrectly. 
> This was part of the motivation for the API change. The obsolescent 
> calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous timestamps like 
> 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles". Org mode surely has bugs 
> in this area, although I don't have time to scout them out.

Handling DST is a step forward, it is an important case. Unfortunately 
there are enough peculiarities in the time zoo. I do not think new 
interface can be used correctly in the following case of time transition 
with no change of DST:

#+name: encode-time-and-format
#+begin_src elisp :var time=nil :var tz=() :var dst=-1
   (let* ((seconds-year
	  (reverse (mapcar #'string-to-number (split-string time "[- :]"))))
	 (time-list (append seconds-year (list nil dst tz))))
     (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" (encode-time time-list) tz))
#+end_src

zdump -v Africa/Juba
...
Africa/Juba  Sun Jan 31 20:59:59 2021 UT = Sun Jan 31 23:59:59 2021 EAT 
isdst=0 gmtoff=10800
Africa/Juba  Sun Jan 31 21:00:00 2021 UT = Sun Jan 31 23:00:00 2021 CAT 
isdst=0 gmtoff=7200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst=-1)

#+RESULTS:
: 2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT +0200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst=())

#+RESULTS:
: 2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT +0200

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2021-01-31 23:30:00", 
tz="Africa/Juba", dst='t)
: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Specified time is not 
representable")


I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300. For you example with regular 
DST transition there is no any problem:


#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst=-1)

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PDT -0700

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst=())

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PST -0800

#+call: encode-time-and-format(time="2022-11-06 01:30:00", 
tz="America/Los_Angeles", dst='t)

#+RESULTS:
: 2022-11-06 01:30:00 PDT -0700

> PS. Org mode usually uses encode-time for calendrical calculations. This 
> is dicey, as some days don't exist (for example, December 30, 2011 does 
> not exist if TZ="Pacific/Apia", because Samoa moved across the 
> International Date Line that day). And it's also dicey when Org mode 
> uses 00:00:00 (midnight at the start of the day) as a timestamp 
> representing the entire day, as it's all too common for midnight to not 
> exist (or to be duplicated) due to a DST transition. Generally speaking, 
> when Org mode is doing calendrical calculations it should use 
> calendrical functions rather than encode-time+decode-time, which are 
> best used for time calculations not calendar calculations. (I realize 
> that fixing this in Org would be nontrivial; perhaps I should file this 
> "PS" as an Org bug report for whoever has time to fix it....)

Then `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and 
should not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous. However 
my opinion is that is should be possible to provide hints to 
`encode-time' to get deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> index 819ce74d93..247373d6b9 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
> @@ -115,6 +115,27 @@ org-table1-hline-regexp
>    (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
>      (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
>  
> +;; Like Emacs 27+ `encode-time' with one argument.
> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time (decode-time)))
> +    (defsubst org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +      (encode-time time))
> +  (defun org-encode-time-1 (time)
> +    (let ((dst-zone (nthcdr 7 time)))
> +      (unless (consp (cdr dst-zone))
> +	(signal wrong-type-argument (list time)))
> +      (let ((etime (apply #'encode-time time))
> +	    (dst (car dst-zone))
> +	    (zone (cadr dst-zone)))
> +	(when (and (symbolp dst) (not (integerp zone)) (not (consp zone)))
> +	  (let* ((detime (decode-time etime))
> +		 (dedst (nth 7 detime)))
> +	    (when (and (not (eq dedst dst)) (symbolp dedst))
> +	      ;; Assume one-hour DST and adjust the timestamp.
> +	      (setq etime (time-add etime (seconds-to-time
> +					   (- (if dedst 3600 0)
> +					      (if dst 3600 0))))))))

I am against this workaround. It fixes (to some extent) usual DST 
transitions, but it adds another bug

Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Apr  2 14:59:59 2022 UT = Sun Apr  3 01:59:59 
2022 +11 isdst=1 gmtoff=39600
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Apr  2 15:00:00 2022 UT = Sun Apr  3 01:30:00 
2022 +1030 isdst=0 gmtoff=37800
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Oct  1 15:29:59 2022 UT = Sun Oct  2 01:59:59 
2022 +1030 isdst=0 gmtoff=37800
Australia/Lord_Howe  Sat Oct  1 15:30:00 2022 UT = Sun Oct  2 02:30:00 
2022 +11 isdst=1 gmtoff=39600

> +	etime))))
> +
>  ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
>  (if (version< emacs-version "27")
>      (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> 0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch
> 
> From 094345e10ad45e06f7b32e2f8017592210f43463 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 00:17:09 -0700
> Subject: [PATCH] Improve Org usage of timestamps
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> The main thing is to follow the (encode-time X) convention where
> X’s DST component of nil means standard time, -1 means unknown.

I am marking this thread as a patch for https://updates.orgmode.org
"Use -1 (guess) instead of nil (no) for DST value in encode-time arguments"

 From my point of view the changes quoted below are most important ones 
in the patch and they should be committed to the Org repository. 
Preferably a unit test for time zones should be added for 
`org-parse-time-string'.

I omitted changes to improve code style, they should be applied as well, 
I just consider them as having less priority.

I am in doubt concerning `org-encode-time-1' part.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/ol.el b/lisp/org/ol.el
> index a03d85f618..fe6e97e928 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/ol.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/ol.el
> @@ -1575,9 +1575,7 @@ org-store-link
>  	  (setq link
>  		(format-time-string
>  		 (car org-time-stamp-formats)
> -		 (apply 'encode-time
> -			(list 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd)
> -			      nil nil nil))))
> +		 (encode-time 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd))))
>  	  (org-link-store-props :type "calendar" :date cd)))
>  
>         ((eq major-mode 'w3-mode)
It allows to avoid a pitfall with nil as DST value.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macs.el b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> index b10725bd52..0916da89ac 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> @@ -1242,7 +1242,7 @@ org-parse-time-string
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 4 s))
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 3 s))
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 2 s))
> -	nil nil nil))
> +	nil -1 nil))

It definitely must be changed in the Org code.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org.el b/lisp/org/org.el
> index d656a51591..1bceb0f53a 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org.el
> @@ -14334,7 +14334,7 @@ org-read-date-analyze
>  	 (setq year (nth 5 org-defdecode))
>  	 (setq org-read-date-analyze-forced-year t))))
>      (setq org-read-date-analyze-futurep futurep)
> -    (list second minute hour day month year)))
> +    (list second minute hour day month year nil -1 nil)))
>  
>  (defvar parse-time-weekdays)
>  (defun org-read-date-get-relative (s today default)

Unsure concerning adding extra elements. I would prefer change of 
`encode-time' in future and a compatibility macro as in the following 
for a while.

Max Nikulin [DRAFT][PATCH] org-encode-time compatibility and convenience 
helper. Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:22:48 +0700.
https://lsit.orgmode.org/7f4ea652-7d22-fb61-f873-5e92f078c9e6@gmail.com

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> 0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch
> 
> From 094345e10ad45e06f7b32e2f8017592210f43463 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 00:17:09 -0700
> Subject: [PATCH] Improve Org usage of timestamps
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> The main thing is to follow the (encode-time X) convention where
> X’s DST component of nil means standard time, -1 means unknown.

I am marking this thread as a patch for https://updates.orgmode.org
"Use -1 (guess) instead of nil (no) for DST value in encode-time arguments"

 From my point of view the changes quoted below are most important ones 
in the patch and they should be committed to the Org repository. 
Preferably a unit test for time zones should be added for 
`org-parse-time-string'.

I omitted changes to improve code style, they should be applied as well, 
I just consider them as having less priority.

I am in doubt concerning `org-encode-time-1' part.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/ol.el b/lisp/org/ol.el
> index a03d85f618..fe6e97e928 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/ol.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/ol.el
> @@ -1575,9 +1575,7 @@ org-store-link
>  	  (setq link
>  		(format-time-string
>  		 (car org-time-stamp-formats)
> -		 (apply 'encode-time
> -			(list 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd)
> -			      nil nil nil))))
> +		 (encode-time 0 0 0 (nth 1 cd) (nth 0 cd) (nth 2 cd))))
>  	  (org-link-store-props :type "calendar" :date cd)))
>  
>         ((eq major-mode 'w3-mode)
It allows to avoid a pitfall with nil as DST value.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org-macs.el b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> index b10725bd52..0916da89ac 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org-macs.el
> @@ -1242,7 +1242,7 @@ org-parse-time-string
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 4 s))
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 3 s))
>  	(string-to-number (match-string 2 s))
> -	nil nil nil))
> +	nil -1 nil))

It definitely must be changed in the Org code.

> diff --git a/lisp/org/org.el b/lisp/org/org.el
> index d656a51591..1bceb0f53a 100644
> --- a/lisp/org/org.el
> +++ b/lisp/org/org.el
> @@ -14334,7 +14334,7 @@ org-read-date-analyze
>  	 (setq year (nth 5 org-defdecode))
>  	 (setq org-read-date-analyze-forced-year t))))
>      (setq org-read-date-analyze-futurep futurep)
> -    (list second minute hour day month year)))
> +    (list second minute hour day month year nil -1 nil)))
>  
>  (defvar parse-time-weekdays)
>  (defun org-read-date-get-relative (s today default)

Unsure concerning adding extra elements. I would prefer change of 
`encode-time' in future and a compatibility macro as in the following 
for a while.

Max Nikulin [DRAFT][PATCH] org-encode-time compatibility and convenience 
helper. Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:22:48 +0700.
https://lsit.orgmode.org/7f4ea652-7d22-fb61-f873-5e92f078c9e6@gmail.com

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/13/22 07:40, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
> I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300.

Are you asking for a function F where you say, "I want to give F a 
possibly-ambiguous decoded local time D, and for F to return all 
timestamps that map to D"? If so, encode-time doesn't do that, because 
the underlying C API (namely, mktime) doesn't do that. All mktime and 
encode-time do is give you *one* timestamp that maps to D; it won't give 
you any other timestamps.

If you're worried about possibly-ambiguous decoded local times, you 
could probe (say) one day before and one day after encode-time's result 
to see if the UTC offset changes, and let that guide you to find other 
possible timestamps that map to the decoded time. Although this is just 
a heuristic it should be good enough.

I doubt whether you need to do that, though. Code that is not careful 
about local time offsets doesn't care how ambiguous decoded times are 
resolved. And code that does care should record UTC offsets anyway, and 
you can use those offsets to disambiguate the decoded times. Something 
like this, say:

  (defun encode-and-format-time (time tz)
    (let ((etime (encode-time (parse-time-string time))))
      (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" etime tz)))

With this definition, (encode-and-format-time "2021-01-31 23:30:00 
+0300" "Africa/Juba") yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT +0300", which is 
the timestamp you want.


> `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and should not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous.

If we're talking about Org's encode-time substitute, you can of course 
do what you like. But Emacs encode-time has supported ambiguous 
timestamps for some time and I expect it's used by apps that don't care 
how ambiguous decoded times are resolved, which means we shouldn't 
remove that support without having a very good reason.


> should be possible to provide hints to `encode-time' to get deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions

Yes, that feature is already there. The hint is the UTC offset, as 
illustrated above.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/13/22 07:40, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
> I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300.

Are you asking for a function F where you say, "I want to give F a 
possibly-ambiguous decoded local time D, and for F to return all 
timestamps that map to D"? If so, encode-time doesn't do that, because 
the underlying C API (namely, mktime) doesn't do that. All mktime and 
encode-time do is give you *one* timestamp that maps to D; it won't give 
you any other timestamps.

If you're worried about possibly-ambiguous decoded local times, you 
could probe (say) one day before and one day after encode-time's result 
to see if the UTC offset changes, and let that guide you to find other 
possible timestamps that map to the decoded time. Although this is just 
a heuristic it should be good enough.

I doubt whether you need to do that, though. Code that is not careful 
about local time offsets doesn't care how ambiguous decoded times are 
resolved. And code that does care should record UTC offsets anyway, and 
you can use those offsets to disambiguate the decoded times. Something 
like this, say:

  (defun encode-and-format-time (time tz)
    (let ((etime (encode-time (parse-time-string time))))
      (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" etime tz)))

With this definition, (encode-and-format-time "2021-01-31 23:30:00 
+0300" "Africa/Juba") yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT +0300", which is 
the timestamp you want.


> `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and should not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous.

If we're talking about Org's encode-time substitute, you can of course 
do what you like. But Emacs encode-time has supported ambiguous 
timestamps for some time and I expect it's used by apps that don't care 
how ambiguous decoded times are resolved, which means we shouldn't 
remove that support without having a very good reason.


> should be possible to provide hints to `encode-time' to get deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions

Yes, that feature is already there. The hint is the UTC offset, as 
illustrated above.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 14/04/2022 01:35, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/13/22 07:40, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>
>> I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300.
> 
> Are you asking for a function F where you say, "I want to give F a 
> possibly-ambiguous decoded local time D, and for F to return all 
> timestamps that map to D"? If so, encode-time doesn't do that, because 
> the underlying C API (namely, mktime) doesn't do that. All mktime and 
> encode-time do is give you *one* timestamp that maps to D; it won't give 
> you any other timestamps.

I am just trying to convince you that new API still can not handle 
ambiguities in response to:

>>> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to
>>> use incorrectly. This was part of the motivation for the API change.
>>> The obsolescent calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous 
>>> timestamps like 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

Completely ignoring DST in old API is a bug. Possibility to omit DST and 
ZONE is a feature for convenience and it is not related to 
correctly/incorrectly. It has no common with allowing 6-values 
SECONONDS...YEAR list.

I am aware of mktime and my opinion is that libc in such cases (dealing 
with formats for humans) is hardly usable for applications more complex 
than "hello world".

I do not want all ambiguous time values. I want to provide hints how 
they should be resolved and get in response an additional value that 
says in which way it is actually resolved.

> If you're worried about possibly-ambiguous decoded local times, you 
> could probe (say) one day before and one day after encode-time's result 
> to see if the UTC offset changes, and let that guide you to find other 
> possible timestamps that map to the decoded time. Although this is just 
> a heuristic it should be good enough.

I would prefer to avoid dances with +/-1 day timestamps. I would not be 
surprised when one day they will give wrong result. During computations 
it is available to which interval of time current time offset is valid. 
Such value may be included in result of conversion. So date-time + 
"America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset in 
the output. Zone internal object or identifier is important for 
calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.

> I doubt whether you need to do that, though. Code that is not careful 
> about local time offsets doesn't care how ambiguous decoded times are 
> resolved. And code that does care should record UTC offsets anyway, and 
> you can use those offsets to disambiguate the decoded times. Something 
> like this, say:
> 
>   (defun encode-and-format-time (time tz)
>     (let ((etime (encode-time (parse-time-string time))))
>       (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" etime tz)))
> 
> With this definition, (encode-and-format-time "2021-01-31 23:30:00 
> +0300" "Africa/Juba") yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT +0300", which is 
> the timestamp you want.

I want hints like "in the case of ambiguity resolve to transition time 
immediately before/immediately after transition" or "provide suitable 
time prior to/after to transition". I hope, they may work without 
explicitly providing time zone offset to the input that anyway requires 
additional calculations.

±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and seconds 
values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST transition 
happens in between.

If agenda interval start falls on skipped time span in local time then 
the value immediately after transition should be used (and maybe user 
should be warned by additional entry). For agenda end interval vice 
versa local time immediately before transition is more suitable.

`parse-time-string' has another set of problems. It is impossible to 
specify particular format like for strptime(3). Actually parsing a 
string to numerical values and resolving ambiguities in numerical values 
are different tasks and it may be useful to have separate functions for 
them. I am unsure however concerning implementing constraints to parse 
free-form dates.

>> `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and should 
>> not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous.
> 
> If we're talking about Org's encode-time substitute, you can of course 
> do what you like. But Emacs encode-time has supported ambiguous 
> timestamps for some time and I expect it's used by apps that don't care 
> how ambiguous decoded times are resolved, which means we shouldn't 
> remove that support without having a very good reason.

There is no reason to impose such restrictions for helpers in Org since 
Org relies on resolving ambiguities with minimal efforts.

`encode-time' supports just one kind of ambiguities. Even though it is 
the most common one, it is rather (partially false) impression than real 
support.

The truth is that most of developers are not aware of real complexity of 
dealing with time. Documentation rarely describes limitations and corner 
cases that should be handled. Even when correct time handling gets more 
priority it appears that available libraries are full of bugs and 
require ugly workarounds.

>> should be possible to provide hints to `encode-time' to get 
>> deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions
> 
> Yes, that feature is already there. The hint is the UTC offset, as 
> illustrated above.

No, UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have 
tried to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of 
time handling functions. In some cases offset should be replaced by time 
zone identifier to avoid incorrect result in further calculations.

So I still do not see any point in mandatory DST and ZONE fields in new 
interface of `encode-time'. I do not see an alternative to convert 
SECONDS...YEAR values to timestamp assuming local time zone as well. 
Anyway DST is not available in advance and sometimes DST value is not 
coupled with step in local time, so its ability to resolve ambiguities 
is limited.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 14/04/2022 01:35, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/13/22 07:40, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>
>> I do not see a way to get 23:30 EAT +0300.
> 
> Are you asking for a function F where you say, "I want to give F a 
> possibly-ambiguous decoded local time D, and for F to return all 
> timestamps that map to D"? If so, encode-time doesn't do that, because 
> the underlying C API (namely, mktime) doesn't do that. All mktime and 
> encode-time do is give you *one* timestamp that maps to D; it won't give 
> you any other timestamps.

I am just trying to convince you that new API still can not handle 
ambiguities in response to:

>>> Unfortunately it makes the function more convenient to
>>> use incorrectly. This was part of the motivation for the API change.
>>> The obsolescent calling convention has no way to deal with ambiguous 
>>> timestamps like 2022-11-06 01:30 when TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

Completely ignoring DST in old API is a bug. Possibility to omit DST and 
ZONE is a feature for convenience and it is not related to 
correctly/incorrectly. It has no common with allowing 6-values 
SECONONDS...YEAR list.

I am aware of mktime and my opinion is that libc in such cases (dealing 
with formats for humans) is hardly usable for applications more complex 
than "hello world".

I do not want all ambiguous time values. I want to provide hints how 
they should be resolved and get in response an additional value that 
says in which way it is actually resolved.

> If you're worried about possibly-ambiguous decoded local times, you 
> could probe (say) one day before and one day after encode-time's result 
> to see if the UTC offset changes, and let that guide you to find other 
> possible timestamps that map to the decoded time. Although this is just 
> a heuristic it should be good enough.

I would prefer to avoid dances with +/-1 day timestamps. I would not be 
surprised when one day they will give wrong result. During computations 
it is available to which interval of time current time offset is valid. 
Such value may be included in result of conversion. So date-time + 
"America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset in 
the output. Zone internal object or identifier is important for 
calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.

> I doubt whether you need to do that, though. Code that is not careful 
> about local time offsets doesn't care how ambiguous decoded times are 
> resolved. And code that does care should record UTC offsets anyway, and 
> you can use those offsets to disambiguate the decoded times. Something 
> like this, say:
> 
>   (defun encode-and-format-time (time tz)
>     (let ((etime (encode-time (parse-time-string time))))
>       (format-time-string "%F %T %Z %z" etime tz)))
> 
> With this definition, (encode-and-format-time "2021-01-31 23:30:00 
> +0300" "Africa/Juba") yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT +0300", which is 
> the timestamp you want.

I want hints like "in the case of ambiguity resolve to transition time 
immediately before/immediately after transition" or "provide suitable 
time prior to/after to transition". I hope, they may work without 
explicitly providing time zone offset to the input that anyway requires 
additional calculations.

±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and seconds 
values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST transition 
happens in between.

If agenda interval start falls on skipped time span in local time then 
the value immediately after transition should be used (and maybe user 
should be warned by additional entry). For agenda end interval vice 
versa local time immediately before transition is more suitable.

`parse-time-string' has another set of problems. It is impossible to 
specify particular format like for strptime(3). Actually parsing a 
string to numerical values and resolving ambiguities in numerical values 
are different tasks and it may be useful to have separate functions for 
them. I am unsure however concerning implementing constraints to parse 
free-form dates.

>> `encode-time' should only accept time zone as time offset and should 
>> not allow default or named value that may be ambiguous.
> 
> If we're talking about Org's encode-time substitute, you can of course 
> do what you like. But Emacs encode-time has supported ambiguous 
> timestamps for some time and I expect it's used by apps that don't care 
> how ambiguous decoded times are resolved, which means we shouldn't 
> remove that support without having a very good reason.

There is no reason to impose such restrictions for helpers in Org since 
Org relies on resolving ambiguities with minimal efforts.

`encode-time' supports just one kind of ambiguities. Even though it is 
the most common one, it is rather (partially false) impression than real 
support.

The truth is that most of developers are not aware of real complexity of 
dealing with time. Documentation rarely describes limitations and corner 
cases that should be handled. Even when correct time handling gets more 
priority it appears that available libraries are full of bugs and 
require ugly workarounds.

>> should be possible to provide hints to `encode-time' to get 
>> deterministic behavior in the case of time transitions
> 
> Yes, that feature is already there. The hint is the UTC offset, as 
> illustrated above.

No, UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have 
tried to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of 
time handling functions. In some cases offset should be replaced by time 
zone identifier to avoid incorrect result in further calculations.

So I still do not see any point in mandatory DST and ZONE fields in new 
interface of `encode-time'. I do not see an alternative to convert 
SECONDS...YEAR values to timestamp assuming local time zone as well. 
Anyway DST is not available in advance and sometimes DST value is not 
coupled with step in local time, so its ability to resolve ambiguities 
is limited.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:

>  date-time + 
> "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset in 
> the output.

It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating 
"Date:" lines in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp 
like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04 -0700", thus losing the fact that the 
timestamp was generated with TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.

Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an 
old timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because 
there is no standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your 
copy of TZDB, or interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that 
can change the interpretation of such a timestamp. In this particular 
case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the interpretation of this 
old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in 1950 in 
Portugal.

If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to 
interpret dates relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should 
keep the UT offset in addition to the TZDB identifier, if you want your 
app to be fully accurate and useful. For example, you should store 
"1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp generated by 
TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release 
2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.

> I want hints like "in the case of ambiguity resolve to transition time immediately before/immediately after transition" or "provide suitable time prior to/after to transition".

Although that might be nice it's not what mktime gives us, and I doubt 
whether it's a good idea to try to implement it from scratch in Emacs.

> I hope, they may work without explicitly providing time zone offset to the input that anyway requires additional calculations. 

It doesn't require additional calculations on the Emacs Lisp user's 
part. All you need to do is save the UT offset, and use it later. 
There's so little overhead to this that it's not worth worrying about.

> ±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and seconds 
> values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST transition 
> happens in between.

Sorry, I don't understand what this sentence is intended to mean.

> `parse-time-string' has another set of problems.

Sure, but that was just an example. You can write your own date parser. 
The point is that when you save a localtime timestamp, you should save 
its UT offset too, in whatever notation is appropriate.

> UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have 
> tried to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of 
> time handling functions.

I doubt whether that's a good idea. I've written that sort of code, and 
it's a lot more work than one might think and it's notoriously difficult 
to do it correctly. You have better things to do.
> So I still do not see any point in mandatory DST and ZONE fields in new 
> interface of `encode-time'.

I think we're in agreement here. As I mentioned earlier, I plan to 
modify Emacs encode-time so that you can pass it a 6-arg list as well as 
an 9-arg list. Once this change is in, the DST and ZONE fields will not 
be mandatory.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:

>  date-time + 
> "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset in 
> the output.

It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating 
"Date:" lines in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp 
like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04 -0700", thus losing the fact that the 
timestamp was generated with TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.

Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an 
old timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because 
there is no standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your 
copy of TZDB, or interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that 
can change the interpretation of such a timestamp. In this particular 
case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the interpretation of this 
old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in 1950 in 
Portugal.

If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to 
interpret dates relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should 
keep the UT offset in addition to the TZDB identifier, if you want your 
app to be fully accurate and useful. For example, you should store 
"1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp generated by 
TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release 
2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.

> I want hints like "in the case of ambiguity resolve to transition time immediately before/immediately after transition" or "provide suitable time prior to/after to transition".

Although that might be nice it's not what mktime gives us, and I doubt 
whether it's a good idea to try to implement it from scratch in Emacs.

> I hope, they may work without explicitly providing time zone offset to the input that anyway requires additional calculations. 

It doesn't require additional calculations on the Emacs Lisp user's 
part. All you need to do is save the UT offset, and use it later. 
There's so little overhead to this that it's not worth worrying about.

> ±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and seconds 
> values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST transition 
> happens in between.

Sorry, I don't understand what this sentence is intended to mean.

> `parse-time-string' has another set of problems.

Sure, but that was just an example. You can write your own date parser. 
The point is that when you save a localtime timestamp, you should save 
its UT offset too, in whatever notation is appropriate.

> UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have 
> tried to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of 
> time handling functions.

I doubt whether that's a good idea. I've written that sort of code, and 
it's a lot more work than one might think and it's notoriously difficult 
to do it correctly. You have better things to do.
> So I still do not see any point in mandatory DST and ZONE fields in new 
> interface of `encode-time'.

I think we're in agreement here. As I mentioned earlier, I plan to 
modify Emacs encode-time so that you can pass it a 6-arg list as well as 
an 9-arg list. Once this change is in, the DST and ZONE fields will not 
be mandatory.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Tim Cross]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:
>
>>  date-time + "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset
>> in the output.
>
> It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating "Date:" lines
> in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04
> -0700", thus losing the fact that the timestamp was generated with
> TZ="America/Los_Angeles".
>
>> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.
>
> Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an old
> timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because there is no
> standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your copy of TZDB, or
> interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that can change the interpretation of
> such a timestamp. In this particular case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the
> interpretation of this old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in
> 1950 in Portugal.
>
> If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to interpret dates
> relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should keep the UT offset in addition
> to the TZDB identifier, if you want your app to be fully accurate and useful. For
> example, you should store "1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp
> generated by TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release
> 2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.
>

I think this is a very important point. Timezone data is not static. If
you only record the timezone name, offsets will be calculated using the
current definition, which may not be correct for past timestamps.

A good example of this is the DST values and the date when a TZ
transitions between DST and non-DST periods. That date can change,
either temporarily or permanently. That change can be days or even
weeks. Any date related calculations which only have knowledge about TZ
names and not the specific offset of a timestamp can therefore be out by
a significant amount.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Tim Cross]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:
>
>>  date-time + "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to timezone offset
>> in the output.
>
> It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating "Date:" lines
> in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04
> -0700", thus losing the fact that the timestamp was generated with
> TZ="America/Los_Angeles".
>
>> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of other date-time values based on the origin value.
>
> Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an old
> timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because there is no
> standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your copy of TZDB, or
> interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that can change the interpretation of
> such a timestamp. In this particular case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the
> interpretation of this old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in
> 1950 in Portugal.
>
> If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to interpret dates
> relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should keep the UT offset in addition
> to the TZDB identifier, if you want your app to be fully accurate and useful. For
> example, you should store "1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp
> generated by TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release
> 2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.
>

I think this is a very important point. Timezone data is not static. If
you only record the timezone name, offsets will be calculated using the
current definition, which may not be correct for past timestamps.

A good example of this is the DST values and the date when a TZ
transitions between DST and non-DST periods. That date can change,
either temporarily or permanently. That change can be days or even
weeks. Any date related calculations which only have knowledge about TZ
names and not the specific offset of a timestamp can therefore be out by
a significant amount.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/04/2022 05:46, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>  date-time + "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to 
>> timezone offset in the output.
> 
> It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating 
> "Date:" lines in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp 
> like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04 -0700", thus losing the fact that the 
> timestamp was generated with TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

However if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely 
time zone identifier should have precedence. A new rule may be issued 
between scheduling event and the time it will happen. It is terrible 
feeling when it is necessary to guess if a web site stores TZ offset or 
its identifier and in the latter case whether its administrators updated 
tzinfo. It is better to store location of event since a time zone may be 
split and time transition may apply only to a part of the original zone.

Actually I meant another case. Some representation is got for a time 
moment and it is necessary to get local time for another time moment. 
Time zone identifier or an object with internal representation allow to 
get correct offset for second moment of time. It should be possible to 
specify whether a function call is isolated conversion or further 
calculations will follow.

>> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of 
>> other date-time values based on the origin value.
> 
> Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an 
> old timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because 
> there is no standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your 
> copy of TZDB, or interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that 
> can change the interpretation of such a timestamp. In this particular 
> case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the interpretation of this 
> old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in 1950 in 
> Portugal.

Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
saving time.

> If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to 
> interpret dates relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should 
> keep the UT offset in addition to the TZDB identifier, if you want your 
> app to be fully accurate and useful. For example, you should store 
> "1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp generated by 
> TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release 
> 2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.

And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.

>> I hope, they may work without explicitly providing time zone offset to 
>> the input that anyway requires additional calculations. 
> 
> It doesn't require additional calculations on the Emacs Lisp user's 
> part. All you need to do is save the UT offset, and use it later. 
> There's so little overhead to this that it's not worth worrying about.

I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.

>> ±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and 
>> seconds values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST 
>> transition happens in between.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand what this sentence is intended to mean.

Let's consider Australia/Lord_Howe with 30min backward DST shift at 
2022-04-03 02:00. 8 hours from 2022-04-02 22:00 may mean 2022-04-03 
06:00 for duration of the night shift (8:30 instead of usual 8:00). Some 
technological process requiring precisely 8 hours finishes at 05:30 in 
such case. So it is not equivalent to add 8 hours or 480 minutes. In the 
former case it is more convenient to increment particular field and 
adjust the result if it coincides with ambiguity/impossible range. In 
the latter case it is better to increment timestamp as seconds since the 
epoch and back to time fields (leaving aside leap seconds).

>> `parse-time-string' has another set of problems.
> 
> Sure, but that was just an example. You can write your own date parser. 
> The point is that when you save a localtime timestamp, you should save 
> its UT offset too, in whatever notation is appropriate.

You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
well). For transitions without DST change there is no conventional text 
representation.

>> UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have tried 
>> to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of time 
>> handling functions.
> 
> I doubt whether that's a good idea. I've written that sort of code, and 
> it's a lot more work than one might think and it's notoriously difficult 
> to do it correctly. You have better things to do.

Elisp implementation of date-time library is not in my TODO list. I just 
know that there are enough implementations already (and some of them may 
be/was buggy):

- 
https://github.com/moment/moment-timezone/blob/develop/moment-timezone.js and 
currently browsers should have their own implementations
- https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/date/lib/parse_tz.c
- 
https://code.qt.io/cgit/qt/qtbase.git/tree/src/corelib/time/qtimezoneprivate_tz.cpp
- https://github.com/HowardHinnant/date/blob/master/src/tz.cpp

and I have heard of more libraries.

There are a lot of corner cases, so "universal" rules will unavoidably 
fail. Flexible API may alleviate some cases.

P.S. Once I noticed the following comment on stackoverflow:
Cubbi Jun 12, 2012 at 22:26
 > std::broken_promise is the best named identifier in the
 > standard library. And there is no std::atomic_future.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11004273/what-is-stdpromise

mktime(3) man page uses "broken-down time" term for struct tm. It 
explains why it is not unusual when code dealing with time is broken.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/04/2022 05:46, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/14/22 06:19, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>>  date-time + "America/Los_Angeles" input should not be reduced to 
>> timezone offset in the output.
> 
> It depends on the application. For some applications (e.g., generating 
> "Date:" lines in email), it is entirely correct to output a timestamp 
> like "14 Apr 2022 15:16:04 -0700", thus losing the fact that the 
> timestamp was generated with TZ="America/Los_Angeles".

However if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely 
time zone identifier should have precedence. A new rule may be issued 
between scheduling event and the time it will happen. It is terrible 
feeling when it is necessary to guess if a web site stores TZ offset or 
its identifier and in the latter case whether its administrators updated 
tzinfo. It is better to store location of event since a time zone may be 
split and time transition may apply only to a part of the original zone.

Actually I meant another case. Some representation is got for a time 
moment and it is necessary to get local time for another time moment. 
Time zone identifier or an object with internal representation allow to 
get correct offset for second moment of time. It should be possible to 
specify whether a function call is isolated conversion or further 
calculations will follow.

>> Zone internal object or identifier is important for calculation of 
>> other date-time values based on the origin value.
> 
> Again, that depends on the application. It's typically wrong to store an 
> old timestamp in a form like "1950-07-01 00:00 Europe/Lisbon", because 
> there is no standard for what "Europe/Lisbon" means. If you update your 
> copy of TZDB, or interpret such a timestamp on another computer, that 
> can change the interpretation of such a timestamp. In this particular 
> case, a change in TZDB release 2021b altered the interpretation of this 
> old timestamp because we discovered that DST was observed in 1950 in 
> Portugal.

Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
saving time.

> If you want to keep the TZDB identifier for advice about how to 
> interpret dates relative to a timestamp, that's fine. But you should 
> keep the UT offset in addition to the TZDB identifier, if you want your 
> app to be fully accurate and useful. For example, you should store 
> "1950-07-01 00:00:00 +0000 Europe/Lisbon" for a timestamp generated by 
> TZDB release 2021a, so that when you interpret the timestamp in release 
> 2021b you'll have an idea of what you're dealing with.

And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.

>> I hope, they may work without explicitly providing time zone offset to 
>> the input that anyway requires additional calculations. 
> 
> It doesn't require additional calculations on the Emacs Lisp user's 
> part. All you need to do is save the UT offset, and use it later. 
> There's so little overhead to this that it's not worth worrying about.

I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.

>> ±n hours may mean ±n*3600 seconds or time with same minutes and 
>> seconds values but hours value is changed by n even if a 30 min DST 
>> transition happens in between.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand what this sentence is intended to mean.

Let's consider Australia/Lord_Howe with 30min backward DST shift at 
2022-04-03 02:00. 8 hours from 2022-04-02 22:00 may mean 2022-04-03 
06:00 for duration of the night shift (8:30 instead of usual 8:00). Some 
technological process requiring precisely 8 hours finishes at 05:30 in 
such case. So it is not equivalent to add 8 hours or 480 minutes. In the 
former case it is more convenient to increment particular field and 
adjust the result if it coincides with ambiguity/impossible range. In 
the latter case it is better to increment timestamp as seconds since the 
epoch and back to time fields (leaving aside leap seconds).

>> `parse-time-string' has another set of problems.
> 
> Sure, but that was just an example. You can write your own date parser. 
> The point is that when you save a localtime timestamp, you should save 
> its UT offset too, in whatever notation is appropriate.

You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
well). For transitions without DST change there is no conventional text 
representation.

>> UTC offset is another feature and implementing the hints I have tried 
>> to describe may require implementing from scratch full stack of time 
>> handling functions.
> 
> I doubt whether that's a good idea. I've written that sort of code, and 
> it's a lot more work than one might think and it's notoriously difficult 
> to do it correctly. You have better things to do.

Elisp implementation of date-time library is not in my TODO list. I just 
know that there are enough implementations already (and some of them may 
be/was buggy):

- 
https://github.com/moment/moment-timezone/blob/develop/moment-timezone.js and 
currently browsers should have their own implementations
- https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/date/lib/parse_tz.c
- 
https://code.qt.io/cgit/qt/qtbase.git/tree/src/corelib/time/qtimezoneprivate_tz.cpp
- https://github.com/HowardHinnant/date/blob/master/src/tz.cpp

and I have heard of more libraries.

There are a lot of corner cases, so "universal" rules will unavoidably 
fail. Flexible API may alleviate some cases.

P.S. Once I noticed the following comment on stackoverflow:
Cubbi Jun 12, 2012 at 22:26
 > std::broken_promise is the best named identifier in the
 > standard library. And there is no std::atomic_future.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11004273/what-is-stdpromise

mktime(3) man page uses "broken-down time" term for struct tm. It 
explains why it is not unusual when code dealing with time is broken.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 501 bytes --]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> Daylight saving time field matters only as a list component and 
>> ignored as a separate argument (by the way, it should be stressed in 
>> the docstring).
> 
> Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
> topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

Feel free to shorten the added fragment, to change the wording, or to 
use your variant instead. See the attachment.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Stress-difference-of-new-and-old-ways-to-call-encode.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 3304 bytes --]

From 42a20494e9f1461f7166c922452028548796bd16 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:19:10 +0700
Subject: [PATCH] Stress difference of new and old ways to call `encode-time'

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time Conversion): Add a warning that blind
changing of code calling `encode-time' to use single list instead of
multiple values may cause deferred bugs since it is common to use nil
for ignored arguments such as DST in the old calling convention.
* src/timefns.c (encode-time): Mention the warning added to the elisp
reference in the docstring.

Refactoring related to `encode-time' caused (bug#54731), so it is better
to make apparent the difference between the recommended and the
obsolescent ways to call the function.  More details concerning the
purpose and limitations of the DST field are added after discussion with
Paul Eggert in (bug#54764).
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 19 +++++++++++++++++++
 src/timefns.c       |  4 ++++
 2 files changed, 23 insertions(+)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 4ee893f860..b7b41f97ab 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1707,6 +1707,25 @@ the latter to the former as follows:
 You can perform simple date arithmetic by using out-of-range values for
 @var{seconds}, @var{minutes}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, and @var{month};
 for example, day 0 means the day preceding the given month.
+
+The old and the new styles to call @code{encode-time} with the same
+values of time fields may give different results.  While modernizing
+code that uses obsolescent calling convention, ensure that the list
+argument contains 9 elements.  Pay special attention that the @code{dst}
+field does not use @code{nil} expecting that actual value will be
+guessed, pass @samp{-1} instead.  During normalizing of values to
+correct state of daylight saving time users may get time shift and even
+wrong date.  It may take months to discover such problem.  When
+called with multiple arguments, the function ignores equivalent of the
+@code{dst} value and @samp{-1} is effectively used.  The new way to call
+@code{encode-time} has an advantage that it is possible to resolve
+ambiguity around backward time shift by passing @code{nil} or @code{t}.
+Unfortunately there are enough cases across the world when a particular
+area is moved to another time zone with no change of daylight saving
+time state.  @code{encode-time} may signal an error in response to
+@code{t} passed as @code{dst}.  You have to pass @code{zone} explicitly
+as time offset in such case if default ambiguity resolution is not
+acceptable.
 @end defun
 
 @node Time Parsing
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index b061be0a78..9af89a512d 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1631,6 +1631,10 @@ convention, DST and ZONE default to -1 and nil respectively.
 Years before 1970 are not guaranteed to work.  On some systems,
 year values as low as 1901 do work.
 
+See Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for description of a pitfall
+that can be faced during migration from the obsolescent to the new
+calling convention due to unconscious usage of nil for the DST argument.
+
 usage: (encode-time TIME &rest OBSOLESCENT-ARGUMENTS)  */)
   (ptrdiff_t nargs, Lisp_Object *args)
 {
-- 
2.25.1

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 501 bytes --]

On 09/04/2022 14:52, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/7/22 05:37, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> Daylight saving time field matters only as a list component and 
>> ignored as a separate argument (by the way, it should be stressed in 
>> the docstring).
> 
> Do you have a wording suggestion? (The doc string already covers the 
> topic concisely; however, conciseness is not always a virtue. :-)

Feel free to shorten the added fragment, to change the wording, or to 
use your variant instead. See the attachment.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Stress-difference-of-new-and-old-ways-to-call-encode.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 3304 bytes --]

From 42a20494e9f1461f7166c922452028548796bd16 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:19:10 +0700
Subject: [PATCH] Stress difference of new and old ways to call `encode-time'

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time Conversion): Add a warning that blind
changing of code calling `encode-time' to use single list instead of
multiple values may cause deferred bugs since it is common to use nil
for ignored arguments such as DST in the old calling convention.
* src/timefns.c (encode-time): Mention the warning added to the elisp
reference in the docstring.

Refactoring related to `encode-time' caused (bug#54731), so it is better
to make apparent the difference between the recommended and the
obsolescent ways to call the function.  More details concerning the
purpose and limitations of the DST field are added after discussion with
Paul Eggert in (bug#54764).
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 19 +++++++++++++++++++
 src/timefns.c       |  4 ++++
 2 files changed, 23 insertions(+)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 4ee893f860..b7b41f97ab 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1707,6 +1707,25 @@ the latter to the former as follows:
 You can perform simple date arithmetic by using out-of-range values for
 @var{seconds}, @var{minutes}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, and @var{month};
 for example, day 0 means the day preceding the given month.
+
+The old and the new styles to call @code{encode-time} with the same
+values of time fields may give different results.  While modernizing
+code that uses obsolescent calling convention, ensure that the list
+argument contains 9 elements.  Pay special attention that the @code{dst}
+field does not use @code{nil} expecting that actual value will be
+guessed, pass @samp{-1} instead.  During normalizing of values to
+correct state of daylight saving time users may get time shift and even
+wrong date.  It may take months to discover such problem.  When
+called with multiple arguments, the function ignores equivalent of the
+@code{dst} value and @samp{-1} is effectively used.  The new way to call
+@code{encode-time} has an advantage that it is possible to resolve
+ambiguity around backward time shift by passing @code{nil} or @code{t}.
+Unfortunately there are enough cases across the world when a particular
+area is moved to another time zone with no change of daylight saving
+time state.  @code{encode-time} may signal an error in response to
+@code{t} passed as @code{dst}.  You have to pass @code{zone} explicitly
+as time offset in such case if default ambiguity resolution is not
+acceptable.
 @end defun
 
 @node Time Parsing
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index b061be0a78..9af89a512d 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1631,6 +1631,10 @@ convention, DST and ZONE default to -1 and nil respectively.
 Years before 1970 are not guaranteed to work.  On some systems,
 year values as low as 1901 do work.
 
+See Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for description of a pitfall
+that can be faced during migration from the obsolescent to the new
+calling convention due to unconscious usage of nil for the DST argument.
+
 usage: (encode-time TIME &rest OBSOLESCENT-ARGUMENTS)  */)
   (ptrdiff_t nargs, Lisp_Object *args)
 {
-- 
2.25.1

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/15/22 10:23, Max Nikulin wrote:

> if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely 
> time zone identifier should have precedence.

Although that would make sense for some applications it's not a good 
idea in general. For example, if you're scheduling a Zoom meeting you 
should save both, because other meeting participants may interpret 
strings like "Pacific/Apia" differently.


> Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
> abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
> may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
> shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
> abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
> saving time.

Yes, timezone names like "Europe/Lisbon" are ambiguous during fallback 
transitions, or if the meaning of "Europe/Lisbon" changes. This is why 
one should also save UT offsets when generating localtime timestamps.

Around five years ago I changed TZDB to numeric use time zone 
abbreviations like "+04" instead of my inventions like "GET", because I 
wanted TZDB to follow existing practice, not invent it. A nice side 
effect is that numeric abbreviations are unambiguous. (Besides, even _I_ 
couldn't remember what "GET" meant. :-)


> And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.

That info is meant only for users; I wouldn't rely on it for 
calculations because those abbreviations are ambiguous. It could well 
be, for example that the meaning of "PST" in the United States will 
change in the near future.


> I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
> period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
> Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.

Sorry, I don't understand this point. One can easily recalculate the UT 
offset in Emacs Lisp by generating the desired timestamp and calling 
decode-time on it. You surely are talking about something else, but I 
don't know what it is.


> You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
> opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
> setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
> then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
> parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
> well).

That's not possible in general, since the two abbreviations can be the 
same. Traditionally in Australia, for example, "CST" meant both "Central 
Standard Time" and "Central Summer Time", and there are probably still 
apps that use the equivalent of TZ="CST-9:30CST,M10.1.0,M4.1.0/3" which 
does precisely that.

It's hardly ever a good idea to rely on time zone abbreviations as 
they're too often ambiguous. It's much better to use UT offsets. When 
generating a localtime timestamp, one should always output its UT offset 
(in addition to any other advisory info you might want to output). And 
if you do that, many of the abovementioned problems are easily solved.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/15/22 10:23, Max Nikulin wrote:

> if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely 
> time zone identifier should have precedence.

Although that would make sense for some applications it's not a good 
idea in general. For example, if you're scheduling a Zoom meeting you 
should save both, because other meeting participants may interpret 
strings like "Pacific/Apia" differently.


> Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
> abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
> may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
> shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
> abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
> saving time.

Yes, timezone names like "Europe/Lisbon" are ambiguous during fallback 
transitions, or if the meaning of "Europe/Lisbon" changes. This is why 
one should also save UT offsets when generating localtime timestamps.

Around five years ago I changed TZDB to numeric use time zone 
abbreviations like "+04" instead of my inventions like "GET", because I 
wanted TZDB to follow existing practice, not invent it. A nice side 
effect is that numeric abbreviations are unambiguous. (Besides, even _I_ 
couldn't remember what "GET" meant. :-)


> And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.

That info is meant only for users; I wouldn't rely on it for 
calculations because those abbreviations are ambiguous. It could well 
be, for example that the meaning of "PST" in the United States will 
change in the near future.


> I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
> period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
> Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.

Sorry, I don't understand this point. One can easily recalculate the UT 
offset in Emacs Lisp by generating the desired timestamp and calling 
decode-time on it. You surely are talking about something else, but I 
don't know what it is.


> You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
> opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
> setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
> then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
> parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
> well).

That's not possible in general, since the two abbreviations can be the 
same. Traditionally in Australia, for example, "CST" meant both "Central 
Standard Time" and "Central Summer Time", and there are probably still 
apps that use the equivalent of TZ="CST-9:30CST,M10.1.0,M4.1.0/3" which 
does precisely that.

It's hardly ever a good idea to rely on time zone abbreviations as 
they're too often ambiguous. It's much better to use UT offsets. When 
generating a localtime timestamp, one should always output its UT offset 
(in addition to any other advisory info you might want to output). And 
if you do that, many of the abovementioned problems are easily solved.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 375 bytes --]

On 4/16/22 09:26, Max Nikulin wrote:
> Feel free to shorten the added fragment, to change the wording, or to 
> use your variant instead. See the attachment.

Thanks, I installed that and then installed the attached, which merges 
that with some documentation improvements that I drafted based on this 
thread.

It is a messy area but I hope the documentation is clearer now.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Document-encode-time-caveats.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 13979 bytes --]

From f1ba92448d1e573640547c68d9bed89fe5c43da0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:48:51 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] Document encode-time caveats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time of Day, Time Conversion):
Move the warnings about DST being -1 to closer to where DST is
discussed, and reword and improve the discussions and warnings.
Be more precise about years before 1969 (possible west of UTC) vs the
Epoch.  Mention some problems due to leap seconds, leap years,
daylight saving transitions, and time zone changes.  Modernize
discussion of OS timestamp range.  Prefer secular ‘BCE’ to religious
‘BC’.  Omit discussion of decoded-time-add and make-decoded-time, as
they are in a library and are not always available; instead, mention
the library.  Warn about common mistakes when doing simple date
arithmetic.
* src/timefns.c (Fencode_time): In doc string, mention date
arithmetic and tighten up the wording a bit.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 153 +++++++++++++++++++-------------------------
 src/timefns.c       |  16 ++---
 2 files changed, 73 insertions(+), 96 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 66689f43a9..8366689640 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1303,10 +1303,16 @@ Time of Day
 
 @cindex Lisp timestamp
 @cindex timestamp, Lisp
+@cindex Coordinated Universal Time
+@cindex Universal Time
+@cindex UTC
+@cindex leap seconds
   Many functions like @code{current-time} and @code{file-attributes}
 return @dfn{Lisp timestamp} values that count seconds, and that can
 represent absolute time by counting seconds since the @dfn{epoch} of
-1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC.
+1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC (Coordinated Universal Time).  Typically these
+counts ignore leap seconds; however, GNU and some other operating
+systems can be configured to count leap seconds.
 
   Although traditionally Lisp timestamps were integer pairs, their
 form has evolved and programs ordinarily should not depend on the
@@ -1367,8 +1373,8 @@ Time of Day
 Some of these conversions rely on operating system functions that
 limit the range of possible time values, and signal an error such as
 @samp{"Specified time is not representable"} if the
-limits are exceeded.  For instance, a system may not support years
-before 1970, or years before 1901, or years far in the future.
+limits are exceeded.  For instance, a system might not support
+timestamps before the epoch, or years far in the future.
 You can convert a time value into
 a human-readable string using @code{format-time-string}, into a Lisp
 timestamp using @code{time-convert}, and into other forms using
@@ -1434,11 +1440,11 @@ Time Zone Rules
 which is a platform-dependent default time zone.
 
 The set of supported @env{TZ} strings is system-dependent.  GNU and
-many other systems support the tzdata database, e.g.,
+many other systems support TZDB timezones, e.g.,
 @samp{"America/New_York"} specifies the time zone and daylight saving
 time history for locations near New York City.  GNU and most other
 systems support POSIX-style @env{TZ} strings, e.g.,
-@samp{"EST+5EDT,M4.1.0/2,M10.5.0/2"} specifies the rules used in New
+@samp{"EST5EDT,M4.1.0,M10.5.0"} specifies the rules used in New
 York from 1987 through 2006.  All systems support the string
 @samp{"UTC0"} meaning Universal Time.
 
@@ -1490,18 +1496,20 @@ Time Conversion
   These functions convert time values (@pxref{Time of Day}) to Lisp
 timestamps, or into calendrical information and vice versa.
 
-  Many 32-bit operating systems are limited to system times containing
-32 bits of information in their seconds component; these systems
-typically handle only the times from 1901-12-13 20:45:52 through
-2038-01-19 03:14:07 Universal Time.  However, 64-bit and some 32-bit operating
-systems have larger seconds components, and can represent times far in
-the past or future.
-
-  Calendrical conversion functions always use the Gregorian calendar, even
-for dates before the Gregorian calendar was introduced.  Year numbers
-count the number of years since the year 1 BC, and do not skip zero
+  Many operating systems use 64-bit signed integers to count seconds,
+and can represent times far in the past or future.  However, some are
+more limited.  For example, old-fashioned operating systems that use
+32-bit signed integers typically handle only times from 1901-12-13
+20:45:52 through 2038-01-19 03:14:07 Universal Time.
+
+  Calendrical conversion functions use the Gregorian calendar even for
+dates before the Gregorian calendar was introduced, and for dates in
+the far distant past or future for which the Gregorian calendar
+is wildly inaccurate and disagrees with common practice in scientific fields
+like astronomy and paleontology, which use Julian-calendar year lengths.
+Year numbers count since the year 1 BCE, and do not skip zero
 as traditional Gregorian years do; for example, the year number
-@minus{}37 represents the Gregorian year 38 BC@.
+@minus{}37 represents the Gregorian year 38 BCE@.
 
 @defun time-convert time &optional form
 This function converts a time value into a Lisp timestamp.
@@ -1620,53 +1628,6 @@ Time Conversion
 @code{decoded-time-month}, @code{decoded-time-year},
 @code{decoded-time-weekday}, @code{decoded-time-dst} and
 @code{decoded-time-zone} accessors can be used.
-
-For instance, to increase the year in a decoded time, you could say:
-
-@lisp
-(setf (decoded-time-year decoded-time)
-      (+ (decoded-time-year decoded-time) 4))
-@end lisp
-
-Also see the following function.
-
-@end defun
-
-@defun decoded-time-add time delta
-This function takes a decoded time structure and adds @var{delta}
-(also a decoded time structure) to it.  Elements in @var{delta} that
-are @code{nil} are ignored.
-
-For instance, if you want ``same time next month'', you
-could say:
-
-@lisp
-(let ((time (decode-time nil nil t))
-      (delta (make-decoded-time :month 2)))
-   (encode-time (decoded-time-add time delta)))
-@end lisp
-
-If this date doesn't exist (if you're running this on January 31st,
-for instance), then the date will be shifted back until you get a
-valid date (which will be February 28th or 29th, depending).
-
-Fields are added in a most to least significant order, so if the
-adjustment described above happens, it happens before adding days,
-hours, minutes or seconds.
-
-The values in @var{delta} can be negative to subtract values instead.
-
-The return value is a decoded time structure.
-@end defun
-
-@defun make-decoded-time &key second minute hour day month year dst zone
-Return a decoded time structure with only the given keywords filled
-out, leaving the rest @code{nil}.  For instance, to get a structure
-that represents ``two months'', you could say:
-
-@lisp
-(make-decoded-time :month 2)
-@end lisp
 @end defun
 
 @defun encode-time time &rest obsolescent-arguments
@@ -1676,9 +1637,21 @@ Time Conversion
 Ordinarily the first argument is a list
 @code{(@var{second} @var{minute} @var{hour} @var{day} @var{month}
 @var{year} @var{ignored} @var{dst} @var{zone})} that specifies a
-decoded time in the style of @code{decode-time}, so that
-@code{(encode-time (decode-time ...))}  works.  For the meanings of
-these list members, see the table under @code{decode-time}.
+decoded time in the style of @code{decode-time}.  For the meanings of
+these list elements, see the table under @code{decode-time}.
+In particular, @var{dst} says how to interpret timestamps during a
+daylight saving fallback when timestamps are repeated.
+If @var{dst} is @minus{}1, the DST value is guessed; if it
+is @code{t} or @code{nil} the timestamp with that DST value
+is returned, with an error signaled if no such timestamp exists.
+Unfortunately a @var{dst} value of @code{t} or @code{nil} does not
+disambiguate timestamps duplicated when a TZDB-based timezone moves
+further west of Greenwich, such as disambiguating the two
+standard-time timestamps 2020-12-27 01:30 when @var{zone} is
+@samp{"Europe/Volgograd"}, which at 02:00 that day changed
+standard time from 4 to 3 hours east of Greenwich; if you need to
+handle situations like this you can use a numeric @var{zone} to
+disambiguate instead.
 
 As an obsolescent calling convention, this function can be given six
 or more arguments.  The first six arguments @var{second},
@@ -1687,14 +1660,18 @@ Time Conversion
 than six arguments the @emph{last} argument is used as @var{zone} and
 any other extra arguments are ignored, so that @code{(apply
 #'encode-time (decode-time ...))} works.  In this obsolescent
-convention, @var{zone} defaults to the current time zone rule
-(@pxref{Time Zone Rules}), and @var{dst} is treated as if it was
-@minus{}1.
+convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
+current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
+When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
+list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that
+is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
 
 Year numbers less than 100 are not treated specially.  If you want them
 to stand for years above 1900, or years above 2000, you must alter them
 yourself before you call @code{encode-time}.
 The operating system limits the range of time and zone values.
+However, timestamps ranging from the epoch to the near future are
+always supported.
 
 The @code{encode-time} function acts as a rough inverse to
 @code{decode-time}.  For example, you can pass the output of
@@ -1707,25 +1684,27 @@ Time Conversion
 You can perform simple date arithmetic by using out-of-range values for
 @var{seconds}, @var{minutes}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, and @var{month};
 for example, day 0 means the day preceding the given month.
+Take care when doing so, as it is common for this to fail in some cases.
+For example:
+
+@lisp
+;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
+;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
+(let ((time (decode-time)))
+  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
+        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
+  time)
+@end lisp
 
-The old and the new styles to call @code{encode-time} with the same
-values of time fields may give different results.  While modernizing
-code that uses obsolescent calling convention, ensure that the list
-argument contains 9 elements.  Pay special attention that the @code{dst}
-field does not use @code{nil} expecting that actual value will be
-guessed, pass @samp{-1} instead.  During normalizing of values to
-correct state of daylight saving time users may get time shift and even
-wrong date.  It may take months to discover such problem.  When
-called with multiple arguments, the function ignores equivalent of the
-@code{dst} value and @samp{-1} is effectively used.  The new way to call
-@code{encode-time} has an advantage that it is possible to resolve
-ambiguity around backward time shift by passing @code{nil} or @code{t}.
-Unfortunately there are enough cases across the world when a particular
-area is moved to another time zone with no change of daylight saving
-time state.  @code{encode-time} may signal an error in response to
-@code{t} passed as @code{dst}.  You have to pass @code{zone} explicitly
-as time offset in such case if default ambiguity resolution is not
-acceptable.
+@noindent
+Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
+time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
+or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
+February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
+not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
+can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
+at July 1 when adding years.  Alternatively, you can use the
+@file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.
 @end defun
 
 @node Time Parsing
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 9af89a512d..7a4a7075ed 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1609,11 +1609,11 @@ check_tm_member (Lisp_Object obj, int offset)
 DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
        doc: /* Convert TIME to a timestamp.
 
-TIME is a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR IGNORED DST ZONE).
+TIME is a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR IGNORED DST ZONE)
 in the style of `decode-time', so that (encode-time (decode-time ...)) works.
 In this list, ZONE can be nil for Emacs local time, t for Universal
 Time, `wall' for system wall clock time, or a string as in the TZ
-environment variable.  It can also be a list (as from
+environment variable.  ZONE can also be a list (as from
 `current-time-zone') or an integer (as from `decode-time') applied
 without consideration for daylight saving time.  If ZONE specifies a
 time zone with daylight-saving transitions, DST is t for daylight
@@ -1626,14 +1626,12 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
 If there are more than 6 arguments the *last* argument is used as ZONE
 and any other extra arguments are ignored, so that (apply
 #\\='encode-time (decode-time ...)) works.  In this obsolescent
-convention, DST and ZONE default to -1 and nil respectively.
+convention, DST is -1 and ZONE defaults to nil.
 
-Years before 1970 are not guaranteed to work.  On some systems,
-year values as low as 1901 do work.
-
-See Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for description of a pitfall
-that can be faced during migration from the obsolescent to the new
-calling convention due to unconscious usage of nil for the DST argument.
+The range of supported years is at least 1970 to the near future.
+Out-of-range values for SECOND through MONTH are brought into range
+via date arithmetic.  This can be tricky especially when combined with
+DST; see Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for details and caveats.
 
 usage: (encode-time TIME &rest OBSOLESCENT-ARGUMENTS)  */)
   (ptrdiff_t nargs, Lisp_Object *args)
-- 
2.32.0

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 375 bytes --]

On 4/16/22 09:26, Max Nikulin wrote:
> Feel free to shorten the added fragment, to change the wording, or to 
> use your variant instead. See the attachment.

Thanks, I installed that and then installed the attached, which merges 
that with some documentation improvements that I drafted based on this 
thread.

It is a messy area but I hope the documentation is clearer now.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Document-encode-time-caveats.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 13979 bytes --]

From f1ba92448d1e573640547c68d9bed89fe5c43da0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:48:51 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] Document encode-time caveats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time of Day, Time Conversion):
Move the warnings about DST being -1 to closer to where DST is
discussed, and reword and improve the discussions and warnings.
Be more precise about years before 1969 (possible west of UTC) vs the
Epoch.  Mention some problems due to leap seconds, leap years,
daylight saving transitions, and time zone changes.  Modernize
discussion of OS timestamp range.  Prefer secular ‘BCE’ to religious
‘BC’.  Omit discussion of decoded-time-add and make-decoded-time, as
they are in a library and are not always available; instead, mention
the library.  Warn about common mistakes when doing simple date
arithmetic.
* src/timefns.c (Fencode_time): In doc string, mention date
arithmetic and tighten up the wording a bit.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 153 +++++++++++++++++++-------------------------
 src/timefns.c       |  16 ++---
 2 files changed, 73 insertions(+), 96 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 66689f43a9..8366689640 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1303,10 +1303,16 @@ Time of Day
 
 @cindex Lisp timestamp
 @cindex timestamp, Lisp
+@cindex Coordinated Universal Time
+@cindex Universal Time
+@cindex UTC
+@cindex leap seconds
   Many functions like @code{current-time} and @code{file-attributes}
 return @dfn{Lisp timestamp} values that count seconds, and that can
 represent absolute time by counting seconds since the @dfn{epoch} of
-1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC.
+1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC (Coordinated Universal Time).  Typically these
+counts ignore leap seconds; however, GNU and some other operating
+systems can be configured to count leap seconds.
 
   Although traditionally Lisp timestamps were integer pairs, their
 form has evolved and programs ordinarily should not depend on the
@@ -1367,8 +1373,8 @@ Time of Day
 Some of these conversions rely on operating system functions that
 limit the range of possible time values, and signal an error such as
 @samp{"Specified time is not representable"} if the
-limits are exceeded.  For instance, a system may not support years
-before 1970, or years before 1901, or years far in the future.
+limits are exceeded.  For instance, a system might not support
+timestamps before the epoch, or years far in the future.
 You can convert a time value into
 a human-readable string using @code{format-time-string}, into a Lisp
 timestamp using @code{time-convert}, and into other forms using
@@ -1434,11 +1440,11 @@ Time Zone Rules
 which is a platform-dependent default time zone.
 
 The set of supported @env{TZ} strings is system-dependent.  GNU and
-many other systems support the tzdata database, e.g.,
+many other systems support TZDB timezones, e.g.,
 @samp{"America/New_York"} specifies the time zone and daylight saving
 time history for locations near New York City.  GNU and most other
 systems support POSIX-style @env{TZ} strings, e.g.,
-@samp{"EST+5EDT,M4.1.0/2,M10.5.0/2"} specifies the rules used in New
+@samp{"EST5EDT,M4.1.0,M10.5.0"} specifies the rules used in New
 York from 1987 through 2006.  All systems support the string
 @samp{"UTC0"} meaning Universal Time.
 
@@ -1490,18 +1496,20 @@ Time Conversion
   These functions convert time values (@pxref{Time of Day}) to Lisp
 timestamps, or into calendrical information and vice versa.
 
-  Many 32-bit operating systems are limited to system times containing
-32 bits of information in their seconds component; these systems
-typically handle only the times from 1901-12-13 20:45:52 through
-2038-01-19 03:14:07 Universal Time.  However, 64-bit and some 32-bit operating
-systems have larger seconds components, and can represent times far in
-the past or future.
-
-  Calendrical conversion functions always use the Gregorian calendar, even
-for dates before the Gregorian calendar was introduced.  Year numbers
-count the number of years since the year 1 BC, and do not skip zero
+  Many operating systems use 64-bit signed integers to count seconds,
+and can represent times far in the past or future.  However, some are
+more limited.  For example, old-fashioned operating systems that use
+32-bit signed integers typically handle only times from 1901-12-13
+20:45:52 through 2038-01-19 03:14:07 Universal Time.
+
+  Calendrical conversion functions use the Gregorian calendar even for
+dates before the Gregorian calendar was introduced, and for dates in
+the far distant past or future for which the Gregorian calendar
+is wildly inaccurate and disagrees with common practice in scientific fields
+like astronomy and paleontology, which use Julian-calendar year lengths.
+Year numbers count since the year 1 BCE, and do not skip zero
 as traditional Gregorian years do; for example, the year number
-@minus{}37 represents the Gregorian year 38 BC@.
+@minus{}37 represents the Gregorian year 38 BCE@.
 
 @defun time-convert time &optional form
 This function converts a time value into a Lisp timestamp.
@@ -1620,53 +1628,6 @@ Time Conversion
 @code{decoded-time-month}, @code{decoded-time-year},
 @code{decoded-time-weekday}, @code{decoded-time-dst} and
 @code{decoded-time-zone} accessors can be used.
-
-For instance, to increase the year in a decoded time, you could say:
-
-@lisp
-(setf (decoded-time-year decoded-time)
-      (+ (decoded-time-year decoded-time) 4))
-@end lisp
-
-Also see the following function.
-
-@end defun
-
-@defun decoded-time-add time delta
-This function takes a decoded time structure and adds @var{delta}
-(also a decoded time structure) to it.  Elements in @var{delta} that
-are @code{nil} are ignored.
-
-For instance, if you want ``same time next month'', you
-could say:
-
-@lisp
-(let ((time (decode-time nil nil t))
-      (delta (make-decoded-time :month 2)))
-   (encode-time (decoded-time-add time delta)))
-@end lisp
-
-If this date doesn't exist (if you're running this on January 31st,
-for instance), then the date will be shifted back until you get a
-valid date (which will be February 28th or 29th, depending).
-
-Fields are added in a most to least significant order, so if the
-adjustment described above happens, it happens before adding days,
-hours, minutes or seconds.
-
-The values in @var{delta} can be negative to subtract values instead.
-
-The return value is a decoded time structure.
-@end defun
-
-@defun make-decoded-time &key second minute hour day month year dst zone
-Return a decoded time structure with only the given keywords filled
-out, leaving the rest @code{nil}.  For instance, to get a structure
-that represents ``two months'', you could say:
-
-@lisp
-(make-decoded-time :month 2)
-@end lisp
 @end defun
 
 @defun encode-time time &rest obsolescent-arguments
@@ -1676,9 +1637,21 @@ Time Conversion
 Ordinarily the first argument is a list
 @code{(@var{second} @var{minute} @var{hour} @var{day} @var{month}
 @var{year} @var{ignored} @var{dst} @var{zone})} that specifies a
-decoded time in the style of @code{decode-time}, so that
-@code{(encode-time (decode-time ...))}  works.  For the meanings of
-these list members, see the table under @code{decode-time}.
+decoded time in the style of @code{decode-time}.  For the meanings of
+these list elements, see the table under @code{decode-time}.
+In particular, @var{dst} says how to interpret timestamps during a
+daylight saving fallback when timestamps are repeated.
+If @var{dst} is @minus{}1, the DST value is guessed; if it
+is @code{t} or @code{nil} the timestamp with that DST value
+is returned, with an error signaled if no such timestamp exists.
+Unfortunately a @var{dst} value of @code{t} or @code{nil} does not
+disambiguate timestamps duplicated when a TZDB-based timezone moves
+further west of Greenwich, such as disambiguating the two
+standard-time timestamps 2020-12-27 01:30 when @var{zone} is
+@samp{"Europe/Volgograd"}, which at 02:00 that day changed
+standard time from 4 to 3 hours east of Greenwich; if you need to
+handle situations like this you can use a numeric @var{zone} to
+disambiguate instead.
 
 As an obsolescent calling convention, this function can be given six
 or more arguments.  The first six arguments @var{second},
@@ -1687,14 +1660,18 @@ Time Conversion
 than six arguments the @emph{last} argument is used as @var{zone} and
 any other extra arguments are ignored, so that @code{(apply
 #'encode-time (decode-time ...))} works.  In this obsolescent
-convention, @var{zone} defaults to the current time zone rule
-(@pxref{Time Zone Rules}), and @var{dst} is treated as if it was
-@minus{}1.
+convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
+current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
+When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
+list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that
+is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
 
 Year numbers less than 100 are not treated specially.  If you want them
 to stand for years above 1900, or years above 2000, you must alter them
 yourself before you call @code{encode-time}.
 The operating system limits the range of time and zone values.
+However, timestamps ranging from the epoch to the near future are
+always supported.
 
 The @code{encode-time} function acts as a rough inverse to
 @code{decode-time}.  For example, you can pass the output of
@@ -1707,25 +1684,27 @@ Time Conversion
 You can perform simple date arithmetic by using out-of-range values for
 @var{seconds}, @var{minutes}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, and @var{month};
 for example, day 0 means the day preceding the given month.
+Take care when doing so, as it is common for this to fail in some cases.
+For example:
+
+@lisp
+;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
+;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
+(let ((time (decode-time)))
+  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
+        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
+  time)
+@end lisp
 
-The old and the new styles to call @code{encode-time} with the same
-values of time fields may give different results.  While modernizing
-code that uses obsolescent calling convention, ensure that the list
-argument contains 9 elements.  Pay special attention that the @code{dst}
-field does not use @code{nil} expecting that actual value will be
-guessed, pass @samp{-1} instead.  During normalizing of values to
-correct state of daylight saving time users may get time shift and even
-wrong date.  It may take months to discover such problem.  When
-called with multiple arguments, the function ignores equivalent of the
-@code{dst} value and @samp{-1} is effectively used.  The new way to call
-@code{encode-time} has an advantage that it is possible to resolve
-ambiguity around backward time shift by passing @code{nil} or @code{t}.
-Unfortunately there are enough cases across the world when a particular
-area is moved to another time zone with no change of daylight saving
-time state.  @code{encode-time} may signal an error in response to
-@code{t} passed as @code{dst}.  You have to pass @code{zone} explicitly
-as time offset in such case if default ambiguity resolution is not
-acceptable.
+@noindent
+Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
+time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
+or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
+February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
+not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
+can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
+at July 1 when adding years.  Alternatively, you can use the
+@file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.
 @end defun
 
 @node Time Parsing
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 9af89a512d..7a4a7075ed 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1609,11 +1609,11 @@ check_tm_member (Lisp_Object obj, int offset)
 DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
        doc: /* Convert TIME to a timestamp.
 
-TIME is a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR IGNORED DST ZONE).
+TIME is a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR IGNORED DST ZONE)
 in the style of `decode-time', so that (encode-time (decode-time ...)) works.
 In this list, ZONE can be nil for Emacs local time, t for Universal
 Time, `wall' for system wall clock time, or a string as in the TZ
-environment variable.  It can also be a list (as from
+environment variable.  ZONE can also be a list (as from
 `current-time-zone') or an integer (as from `decode-time') applied
 without consideration for daylight saving time.  If ZONE specifies a
 time zone with daylight-saving transitions, DST is t for daylight
@@ -1626,14 +1626,12 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
 If there are more than 6 arguments the *last* argument is used as ZONE
 and any other extra arguments are ignored, so that (apply
 #\\='encode-time (decode-time ...)) works.  In this obsolescent
-convention, DST and ZONE default to -1 and nil respectively.
+convention, DST is -1 and ZONE defaults to nil.
 
-Years before 1970 are not guaranteed to work.  On some systems,
-year values as low as 1901 do work.
-
-See Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for description of a pitfall
-that can be faced during migration from the obsolescent to the new
-calling convention due to unconscious usage of nil for the DST argument.
+The range of supported years is at least 1970 to the near future.
+Out-of-range values for SECOND through MONTH are brought into range
+via date arithmetic.  This can be tricky especially when combined with
+DST; see Info node `(elisp)Time Conversion' for details and caveats.
 
 usage: (encode-time TIME &rest OBSOLESCENT-ARGUMENTS)  */)
   (ptrdiff_t nargs, Lisp_Object *args)
-- 
2.32.0

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2957 bytes --]

Here are the main points I see about making timestamps work better in 
Org mode, and related patches to how Emacs handles timestamps.

* Max would like encode-time to treat a list (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY) as if 
it were (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY nil -1 nil), as that would be more 
convenient for how Org mode deals with ambiguous local timestamps. This 
is relatively easy to add for Emacs 29+, and is done in first of the 
attached proposed patches to Emacs master.

* As I understand it, Max would like a function that emulate Emacs 29 
encode-time with one argument, even if running in Emacs versions back to 
Emacs 25. I suppose such a function would also need to implement Emacs 
27+ encode-time's support for subsecond resolution. E.g., 
(org-encode-time '((44604411568 . 1000000000) 55 0 19 4 2022 - -1 t)) 
should return (1650329744604411568 . 1000000000) even in Emacs 25 and 26.

* There are three other Emacs timestamp changes I should mention that 
might be relevant to Org mode:

** 1. Although in Emacs 28 functions like (time-convert nil t) return a 
timestamp resolution of 1 ns, in Emacs 29 I plan to fix them so that 
they return the system clock resolution, which is often coarser than 1 
ns. This is done in the 4th attached patch.

** 2. In Emacs 29 format-time-string should support a new format "%-N" 
which outputs only enough digits for the system clock resolution. (This 
is the same as GNU "date".) This is done in the 5th attached patch.

** 3. Emacs 29 current-time and related functions should generate a 
(TICKS . HZ) timestamp instead of the old (HIGH LOW MICROSECS PICOSECS) 
timestamp. This change has been planned for some time; it was announced 
in Emacs 27. As far as I know Org mode is already ready for this change 
but I thought I'd mention it again here. This is done in the last 
attached patch.

* My last topic in this email is Max's request for a feature that I'm 
not planning to put into Emacs 29 as it'll require more thought. This 
addresses the problem where your TZ is "Africa/Juba" and you want to 
encode a timestamp like "2021-01-31 23:30" which is ambiguous since at 
24:00 that day Juba moved standard time back by an hour. Unfortunately 
the underlying C mktime function does not allow disambiguation in the 
rare situation where standard time moves further west of Greenwich. 
Addressing this problem would require rewriting mktime from scratch in 
Elisp, or using heuristics that would occasionally fail, or (my 
favorite) extending glibc mktime to treat tm_isdst values other than 
-1,0,1 to support disambiguating such timestamps. In the meantime, one 
can disambiguate such timestamps in Elisp by using numeric time zones, e.g.:

   (format-time-string "%F %T %z"
		      (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 1 2021 - -1 TZ))
		      "Africa/Juba")

yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0200" if TZ is 7200, and "2021-01-31 
23:30:00 +0300" if TZ is 10800. And perhaps this is the right way to go 
in the long run anyway.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Support-encode-time-list-s-m-h-D-M-Y.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 4727 bytes --]

From 3d02a8e1192a782a16ffdee4940612f69a12629f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:26 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 1/6] Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))

* src/timefns.c (Fencode_time): Add support for a 6-elt list arg.
Requested by Max Nikulin for Org (bug#54764).
* test/src/timefns-tests.el (encode-time-alternate-apis): New test.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi       |  5 +++++
 etc/NEWS                  |  5 +++++
 src/timefns.c             | 21 +++++++++++++++------
 test/src/timefns-tests.el |  9 +++++++++
 4 files changed, 34 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index cabae08970..bfcd51318e 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1660,6 +1660,11 @@ Time Conversion
 handle situations like this you can use a numeric @var{zone} to
 disambiguate instead.
 
+The first argument can also be a list @code{(@var{second} @var{minute}
+@var{hour} @var{day} @var{month} @var{year})}, which is treated like
+the list @code{(@var{second} @var{minute} @var{hour} @var{day}
+@var{month} @var{year} nil -1 nil)}.
+
 As an obsolescent calling convention, this function can be given six
 or more arguments.  The first six arguments @var{second},
 @var{minute}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, @var{month}, and @var{year}
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 3e7788277d..c5a136ea68 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1950,6 +1950,11 @@ For example, '(time-add nil '(1 . 1000))' no longer warns that the
 '(1 . 1000)' acts like '(1000 . 1000000)'.  This warning, which was a
 temporary transition aid for Emacs 27, has served its purpose.
 
++++
+** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
+(encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
+(encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR nil -1 nil)).
+
 +++
 ** 'date-to-time' now assumes earliest values if its argument lacks
 month, day, or time.  For example, (date-to-time "2021-12-04") now
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 7a4a7075ed..b0b84a438c 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1620,6 +1620,9 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
 saving time, nil for standard time, and -1 to cause the daylight
 saving flag to be guessed.
 
+TIME can also be a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR), which is
+equivalent to (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR nil -1 nil).
+
 As an obsolescent calling convention, if this function is called with
 6 or more arguments, the first 6 arguments are SECOND, MINUTE, HOUR,
 DAY, MONTH, and YEAR, and specify the components of a decoded time.
@@ -1645,7 +1648,7 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
   if (nargs == 1)
     {
       Lisp_Object tail = a;
-      for (int i = 0; i < 9; i++, tail = XCDR (tail))
+      for (int i = 0; i < 6; i++, tail = XCDR (tail))
 	CHECK_CONS (tail);
       secarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       minarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
@@ -1653,11 +1656,17 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
       mdayarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       monarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       yeararg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
-      a = XCDR (a);
-      Lisp_Object dstflag = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
-      zone = XCAR (a);
-      if (SYMBOLP (dstflag) && !FIXNUMP (zone) && !CONSP (zone))
-	tm.tm_isdst = !NILP (dstflag);
+      if (! NILP (a))
+	{
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  a = XCDR (a);
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  Lisp_Object dstflag = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  zone = XCAR (a);
+	  if (SYMBOLP (dstflag) && !FIXNUMP (zone) && !CONSP (zone))
+	    tm.tm_isdst = !NILP (dstflag);
+	}
     }
   else if (nargs < 6)
     xsignal2 (Qwrong_number_of_arguments, Qencode_time, make_fixnum (nargs));
diff --git a/test/src/timefns-tests.el b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
index e7c464472d..08d06f27d9 100644
--- a/test/src/timefns-tests.el
+++ b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
@@ -225,6 +225,15 @@ encode-time-dst-numeric-zone
              (encode-time '(29 31 17 30 4 2019 2 t 7200))
              '(23752 27217))))
 
+(ert-deftest encode-time-alternate-apis ()
+  (let* ((time '(30 30 12 15 6 1970))
+	 (time-1 (append time '(nil -1 nil)))
+	 (etime (encode-time time)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (encode-time time-1)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time time)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time time-1)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time (append time '(nil)))))))
+
 (ert-deftest float-time-precision ()
   (should (= (float-time '(0 1 0 4025)) 1.000000004025))
   (should (= (float-time '(1000000004025 . 1000000000000)) 1.000000004025))
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: 0002-Refactor-to-simplify-clock-resolution-support.patch --]
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From 68bd5fdbb6a94fd90575e2e2199365a0c2b9db68 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:26 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 2/6] Refactor to simplify clock resolution support

* src/timefns.c (timespec_mpz, timespec_ticks):
New args HZ, RES.  All callers changed.
(timespec_clockres_to_lisp): New function,
extended from timespec_to_lisp.
(timespec_to_lisp): Use it.
(make_lisp_time_clockres): New function, extended from make_lisp_time.
(make_lisp_time): Use it.
---
 src/timefns.c | 61 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---------------
 1 file changed, 43 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)

diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index b0b84a438c..3f8efadf54 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -482,30 +482,37 @@ mpz_set_time (mpz_t rop, time_t t)
     mpz_set_uintmax (rop, t);
 }
 
-/* Store into mpz[0] a clock tick count for T, assuming a
-   TIMESPEC_HZ-frequency clock.  Use mpz[1] as a temp.  */
+/* Store into mpz[0] a clock tick count for T, assuming a HZ-frequency
+   clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).
+   Use mpz[1] as a temp.  */
 static void
-timespec_mpz (struct timespec t)
+timespec_mpz (struct timespec t, long int hz, long int res)
 {
-  /* mpz[0] = sec * TIMESPEC_HZ + nsec.  */
-  mpz_set_ui (mpz[0], t.tv_nsec);
+  /* mpz[0] = sec * hz + nsec / res.  */
+  mpz_set_ui (mpz[0], t.tv_nsec / res);
   mpz_set_time (mpz[1], t.tv_sec);
-  mpz_addmul_ui (mpz[0], mpz[1], TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  mpz_addmul_ui (mpz[0], mpz[1], hz);
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp integer counting TIMESPEC_HZ ticks.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp integer counting HZ ticks each consisting
+   of RES ns.  */
 static Lisp_Object
-timespec_ticks (struct timespec t)
+timespec_ticks (struct timespec t, long int hz, long int res)
 {
+  eassume (0 <= t.tv_nsec && t.tv_nsec < TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (0 < hz && hz <= TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (0 < res && res <= TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (hz * res == TIMESPEC_HZ);
+
   /* For speed, use intmax_t arithmetic if it will do.  */
   intmax_t accum;
   if (FASTER_TIMEFNS
-      && !INT_MULTIPLY_WRAPV (t.tv_sec, TIMESPEC_HZ, &accum)
-      && !INT_ADD_WRAPV (t.tv_nsec, accum, &accum))
+      && !INT_MULTIPLY_WRAPV (t.tv_sec, hz, &accum)
+      && !INT_ADD_WRAPV (t.tv_nsec / res, accum, &accum))
     return make_int (accum);
 
   /* Fall back on bignum arithmetic.  */
-  timespec_mpz (t);
+  timespec_mpz (t, hz, res);
   return make_integer_mpz ();
 }
 
@@ -565,9 +572,26 @@ lisp_time_seconds (struct lisp_time t)
   return make_integer_mpz ();
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
+/* Return (TICKS . LISPHZ) for time T, assuming a LISPHZ,HZ,RES clock.  */
+static Lisp_Object
+timespec_clockres_to_lisp (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
+			   long int hz, long int res)
+{
+  return Fcons (timespec_ticks (t, hz, res), lisphz);
+}
+
+/* Return (TICKS . HZ) for time T, assuming a clock resolution of 1 ns.  */
 Lisp_Object
-make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
+timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
+{
+  return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
+}
+
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming a LISPHZ or HZ-frequency
+   clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).  */
+static Lisp_Object
+make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
+			 long int hz, long int res)
 {
   if (CURRENT_TIME_LIST)
     {
@@ -577,14 +601,14 @@ make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 		    make_fixnum (ns / 1000), make_fixnum (ns % 1000 * 1000));
     }
   else
-    return timespec_to_lisp (t);
+    return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, lisphz, hz, res);
 }
 
-/* Return (TICKS . HZ) for time T.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
 Lisp_Object
-timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
+make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 {
-  return Fcons (timespec_ticks (t), timespec_hz);
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
 }
 
 /* Return NUMERATOR / DENOMINATOR, rounded to the nearest double.
@@ -747,7 +771,8 @@ decode_time_components (enum timeform form,
       }
 
     case TIMEFORM_NIL:
-      return decode_ticks_hz (timespec_ticks (current_timespec ()),
+      return decode_ticks_hz (timespec_ticks (current_timespec (),
+					      TIMESPEC_HZ, 1),
 			      timespec_hz, result, dresult);
 
     default:
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #4: 0003-Add-Gnulib-gettime-res-module.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 5226 bytes --]

From 8c25372709d256d83858be454987137dc202b725 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 3/6] Add Gnulib gettime-res module

* admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
* lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
* lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
---
 admin/merge-gnulib |  3 +-
 lib/gettime-res.c  | 78 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 lib/gnulib.mk.in   |  9 ++++++
 m4/gnulib-comp.m4  |  3 ++
 4 files changed, 92 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
 create mode 100644 lib/gettime-res.c

diff --git a/admin/merge-gnulib b/admin/merge-gnulib
index ea3d23686f..0279d1f99d 100755
--- a/admin/merge-gnulib
+++ b/admin/merge-gnulib
@@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ GNULIB_MODULES=
   fchmodat fcntl fcntl-h fdopendir file-has-acl
   filemode filename filevercmp flexmember fpieee
   free-posix fstatat fsusage fsync futimens
-  getloadavg getopt-gnu getrandom gettime gettimeofday gitlog-to-changelog
+  getloadavg getopt-gnu getrandom
+  gettime gettime-res gettimeofday gitlog-to-changelog
   ieee754-h ignore-value intprops largefile libgmp lstat
   manywarnings memmem-simple mempcpy memrchr minmax mkostemp mktime
   nanosleep nproc nstrftime
diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..611f83ad27
--- /dev/null
+++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
@@ -0,0 +1,78 @@
+/* Get the system clock resolution.
+
+   Copyright 2021-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+
+   This file is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
+   it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as
+   published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the
+   License, or (at your option) any later version.
+
+   This file is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
+   but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
+   MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
+   GNU Lesser General Public License for more details.
+
+   You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License
+   along with this program.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.  */
+
+/* Written by Paul Eggert.  */
+
+#include <config.h>
+
+#include "timespec.h"
+
+static long int _GL_ATTRIBUTE_CONST
+gcd (long int a, long int b)
+{
+  while (b != 0)
+    {
+      long int r = a % b;
+      a = b;
+      b = r;
+    }
+  return a;
+}
+
+/* Return the system time resolution in nanoseconds.  */
+
+long int
+gettime_res (void)
+{
+  struct timespec res;
+#if defined CLOCK_REALTIME && HAVE_CLOCK_GETRES
+  clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, &res);
+#elif defined HAVE_TIMESPEC_GETRES
+  timespec_getres (&res, TIME_UTC);
+#else
+  /* Guess high and let the later code deduce better.  */
+  res.tv_sec = 1;
+  res.tv_nsec = 0;
+#endif
+
+  /* On all Gnulib platforms the following calculations do not overflow.  */
+
+  long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
+  long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
+
+  /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
+     too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
+     return the timer interval.  For example, on AIX 7.2 POWER8
+     clock_getres yields 10 ms even though clock_gettime yields 1 µs
+     resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
+     trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
+     bounds on resolution.  */
+  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
+    {
+      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
+      r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
+    }
+
+  return r;
+}
+
+/*
+ * Hey Emacs!
+ * Local Variables:
+ * coding: utf-8
+ * End:
+ */
diff --git a/lib/gnulib.mk.in b/lib/gnulib.mk.in
index bbb05fdba5..fbc199faaf 100644
--- a/lib/gnulib.mk.in
+++ b/lib/gnulib.mk.in
@@ -114,6 +114,7 @@
 #  getopt-gnu \
 #  getrandom \
 #  gettime \
+#  gettime-res \
 #  gettimeofday \
 #  gitlog-to-changelog \
 #  ieee754-h \
@@ -2188,6 +2189,14 @@ libgnu_a_SOURCES += gettime.c
 endif
 ## end   gnulib module gettime
 
+## begin gnulib module gettime-res
+ifeq (,$(OMIT_GNULIB_MODULE_gettime-res))
+
+libgnu_a_SOURCES += gettime-res.c
+
+endif
+## end   gnulib module gettime-res
+
 ## begin gnulib module gettimeofday
 ifeq (,$(OMIT_GNULIB_MODULE_gettimeofday))
 
diff --git a/m4/gnulib-comp.m4 b/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
index fb5f1b52a4..a04ec44be9 100644
--- a/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
+++ b/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
@@ -112,6 +112,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
   # Code from module getrandom:
   # Code from module gettext-h:
   # Code from module gettime:
+  # Code from module gettime-res:
   # Code from module gettimeofday:
   # Code from module gitlog-to-changelog:
   # Code from module group-member:
@@ -371,6 +372,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
                  [test $HAVE_GETRANDOM = 0 || test $REPLACE_GETRANDOM = 1])
   gl_SYS_RANDOM_MODULE_INDICATOR([getrandom])
   gl_GETTIME
+  gl_GETTIME_RES
   gl_FUNC_GETTIMEOFDAY
   gl_CONDITIONAL([GL_COND_OBJ_GETTIMEOFDAY],
                  [test $HAVE_GETTIMEOFDAY = 0 || test $REPLACE_GETTIMEOFDAY = 1])
@@ -1270,6 +1272,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
   lib/getopt_int.h
   lib/getrandom.c
   lib/gettext.h
+  lib/gettime-res.c
   lib/gettime.c
   lib/gettimeofday.c
   lib/gl_openssl.h
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #5: 0004-Use-CLOCK_REALTIME-resolution-for-TICKS-.-HZ.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 8623 bytes --]

From 9c42f5f9ebc5b4e5d7bd0c33a0ce7de27c27d893 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 4/6] Use CLOCK_REALTIME resolution for (TICKS . HZ)

This gives Elisp code a clearer view of timestamps, for uses like
(time-convert nil t).
* src/emacs.c (main): Call init_timefns earlier.
* src/keyboard.c (Fcurrent_idle_time):
* src/sysdep.c (Fcurrent_time):
Use make_lisp_realtime instead of make_lisp_time,
for realtime timestamps (e.g., they come from gettime).
* src/sysdep.c (make_lisp_s_us): Also define if HAVE_GETRUSAGE.
Simplify by calling make_lisp_time_clockres.
(Fget_internal_run_time): Fix resolution by calling make_lisp_s_us.
* src/timefns.c (realtime_lisphz, realtime_hz, realtime_res):
New static vars.
(init_time_res): New function.
(init_timefns): Initialize the new vars
(make_lisp_time_clockres): Now extern.
(make_lisp_realtime): New function.
---
 etc/NEWS       |  6 ++++++
 src/emacs.c    |  7 ++++---
 src/fileio.c   |  5 ++++-
 src/keyboard.c |  4 ++--
 src/sysdep.c   | 14 ++++++--------
 src/systime.h  |  3 +++
 src/timefns.c  | 36 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---
 7 files changed, 58 insertions(+), 17 deletions(-)

diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index c5a136ea68..38317fef03 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1950,6 +1950,12 @@ For example, '(time-add nil '(1 . 1000))' no longer warns that the
 '(1 . 1000)' acts like '(1000 . 1000000)'.  This warning, which was a
 temporary transition aid for Emacs 27, has served its purpose.
 
++++
+** (TICKS . HZ) timestamps now report system clock resolution.
+For example, the macOS system clock resolution is 1 μs so
+(time-convert nil t) now acts like (time-convert nil 1000000).
+Formerly, time-convert used a clock resolution of 1 ns regardless.
+
 +++
 ** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
 (encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
diff --git a/src/emacs.c b/src/emacs.c
index 3100852b2c..15a4a25770 100644
--- a/src/emacs.c
+++ b/src/emacs.c
@@ -1894,6 +1894,10 @@ main (int argc, char **argv)
 
   init_signals ();
 
+  /* This calls putenv and so must precede init_process_emacs.
+     It must also precede init_window_once, which creates timestamps.  */
+  init_timefns ();
+
   noninteractive1 = noninteractive;
 
   /* Perform basic initializations (not merely interning symbols).  */
@@ -2383,9 +2387,6 @@ main (int argc, char **argv)
 
   init_charset ();
 
-  /* This calls putenv and so must precede init_process_emacs.  */
-  init_timefns ();
-
   init_editfns ();
 
   /* These two call putenv.  */
diff --git a/src/fileio.c b/src/fileio.c
index c418036fc6..2a857d10dd 100644
--- a/src/fileio.c
+++ b/src/fileio.c
@@ -5840,7 +5840,10 @@ DEFUN ("set-visited-file-modtime", Fset_visited_file_modtime,
 	  mtime = make_timespec (0, UNKNOWN_MODTIME_NSECS - flag);
 	}
       else
-	mtime = lisp_time_argument (time_flag);
+	{
+	  mtime = lisp_time_argument (time_flag);
+	  /* FIXME: Do not assume mtime resolution is 1 ns.  */
+	}
 
       current_buffer->modtime = mtime;
       current_buffer->modtime_size = -1;
diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
index 19c8fdf1dc..3eb0694eda 100644
--- a/src/keyboard.c
+++ b/src/keyboard.c
@@ -4668,8 +4668,8 @@ DEFUN ("current-idle-time", Fcurrent_idle_time, Scurrent_idle_time, 0, 0, 0,
   (void)
 {
   if (timespec_valid_p (timer_idleness_start_time))
-    return make_lisp_time (timespec_sub (current_timespec (),
-					 timer_idleness_start_time));
+    return make_lisp_realtime (timespec_sub (current_timespec (),
+					     timer_idleness_start_time));
 
   return Qnil;
 }
diff --git a/src/sysdep.c b/src/sysdep.c
index 36636d0ed5..b15d5c359e 100644
--- a/src/sysdep.c
+++ b/src/sysdep.c
@@ -3169,16 +3169,14 @@ list_system_processes (void)
 
 #endif /* !defined (WINDOWSNT) */
 
-#if defined __FreeBSD__ || defined DARWIN_OS || defined __OpenBSD__
+#if (defined HAVE_GETRUSAGE \
+     || defined __FreeBSD__ || defined DARWIN_OS || defined __OpenBSD__)
 
 static Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_s_us (time_t s, long us)
 {
-  Lisp_Object sec = make_int (s);
-  Lisp_Object usec = make_fixnum (us);
-  Lisp_Object hz = make_fixnum (1000000);
-  Lisp_Object ticks = CALLN (Fplus, CALLN (Ftimes, sec, hz), usec);
-  return Ftime_convert (Fcons (ticks, hz), Qnil);
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (make_timespec (s, us * 1000),
+				  make_fixnum (1000000), 1000000, 1000);
 }
 
 #endif
@@ -4238,7 +4236,7 @@ DEFUN ("get-internal-run-time", Fget_internal_run_time, Sget_internal_run_time,
 #ifdef HAVE_GETRUSAGE
   struct rusage usage;
   time_t secs;
-  int usecs;
+  long int usecs;
 
   if (getrusage (RUSAGE_SELF, &usage) < 0)
     /* This shouldn't happen.  What action is appropriate?  */
@@ -4252,7 +4250,7 @@ DEFUN ("get-internal-run-time", Fget_internal_run_time, Sget_internal_run_time,
       usecs -= 1000000;
       secs++;
     }
-  return make_lisp_time (make_timespec (secs, usecs * 1000));
+  return make_lisp_s_us (secs, usecs);
 #else /* ! HAVE_GETRUSAGE  */
 #ifdef WINDOWSNT
   return w32_get_internal_run_time ();
diff --git a/src/systime.h b/src/systime.h
index 75088bd4a6..419da80826 100644
--- a/src/systime.h
+++ b/src/systime.h
@@ -86,7 +86,10 @@ timespec_valid_p (struct timespec t)
 
 /* defined in timefns.c */
 extern struct timeval make_timeval (struct timespec) ATTRIBUTE_CONST;
+extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_realtime (struct timespec);
 extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_time (struct timespec);
+extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec, Lisp_Object,
+					    long int, long int);
 extern Lisp_Object timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec);
 extern bool list4_to_timespec (Lisp_Object, Lisp_Object, Lisp_Object,
 			       Lisp_Object, struct timespec *);
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 3f8efadf54..0d0a8a5922 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -77,12 +77,17 @@ Copyright (C) 1985-1987, 1989, 1993-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = true };
 #endif
 
+/* Clock resolution of struct timespec.  */
 #if FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (1000000000)
 static Lisp_Object timespec_hz;
 #else
 # define timespec_hz make_fixnum (TIMESPEC_HZ)
 #endif
 
+/* Clock resolution of realtime, in various forms.  HZ*RES == TIMESPEC_HZ.  */
+static Lisp_Object realtime_lisphz;
+static long int realtime_hz, realtime_res;
+
 #define TRILLION 1000000000000
 #if FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (TRILLION)
 static Lisp_Object trillion;
@@ -302,9 +307,24 @@ tzlookup (Lisp_Object zone, bool settz)
   return new_tz;
 }
 
+static void
+init_time_res (void)
+{
+  realtime_res = gettime_res ();
+  eassume (0 < realtime_res);
+  if (TIMESPEC_HZ < realtime_res)
+    realtime_res = TIMESPEC_HZ;
+  realtime_hz = TIMESPEC_HZ / realtime_res;
+  realtime_lisphz = make_int (realtime_hz);
+}
+
 void
 init_timefns (void)
 {
+  pdumper_do_now_and_after_load (init_time_res);
+  if (FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (TIMESPEC_HZ) && !initialized)
+    staticpro (&realtime_lisphz);
+
 #ifdef HAVE_UNEXEC
   /* A valid but unlikely setting for the TZ environment variable.
      It is OK (though a bit slower) if the user chooses this value.  */
@@ -589,7 +609,7 @@ timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
 
 /* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming a LISPHZ or HZ-frequency
    clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).  */
-static Lisp_Object
+Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
 			 long int hz, long int res)
 {
@@ -604,13 +624,23 @@ make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
     return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, lisphz, hz, res);
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming full resolution.  */
 Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 {
   return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
 }
 
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming gettime resolution.  */
+Lisp_Object
+make_lisp_realtime (struct timespec t)
+{
+  if (NILP (realtime_lisphz))
+    abort ();
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, realtime_lisphz,
+				  realtime_hz, realtime_res);
+}
+
 /* Return NUMERATOR / DENOMINATOR, rounded to the nearest double.
    Arguments must be Lisp integers, and DENOMINATOR must be positive.  */
 static double
@@ -1799,7 +1829,7 @@ DEFUN ("current-time", Fcurrent_time, Scurrent_time, 0, 0, 0,
 the current time in seconds.  */)
   (void)
 {
-  return make_lisp_time (current_timespec ());
+  return make_lisp_realtime (current_timespec ());
 }
 
 DEFUN ("current-time-string", Fcurrent_time_string, Scurrent_time_string,
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #6: 0005-Support-format-time-string-N-like-date.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 7510 bytes --]

From 2a8467a5c48a5b7296bce13ccaee01fb80b53704 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 5/6] =?UTF-8?q?Support=20format-time-string=20%-N=20like?=
 =?UTF-8?q?=20=E2=80=98date=E2=80=99?=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

format-time-string now supports "%-N" to mean "do not pad past
timestamp resolution".  This is compatible with GNU 'date'.
* src/timefns.c (hz_width, replace_percent_minus_N): New functions.
(Fformat_time_string): Use them to support %-N.
* test/src/timefns-tests.el (format-time-string-%-N): New test.
(format-time-string-padding-minimal-deletes-unneeded-zeros):
Adjust test to match new behavior.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi       |  3 +++
 etc/NEWS                  |  5 ++++
 src/timefns.c             | 53 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----
 test/src/timefns-tests.el | 12 +++++++--
 4 files changed, 66 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index bfcd51318e..30ece4aeff 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1897,6 +1897,9 @@ Time Parsing
 @samp{_} pads with blanks, @samp{-}
 suppresses padding, @samp{^} upper-cases letters, and @samp{#}
 reverses the case of letters.
+As a special case, @samp{%-N} suppresses padding past the resolution
+of @var{time}.  For example, if @var{time} is @code{(12345020 . 1000)},
+@samp{%-N} stands for @samp{020}.
 
 You can also specify the field width and type of padding for any of
 these @samp{%}-sequences.  This works as in @code{printf}: you write
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 38317fef03..d9635cce46 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1956,6 +1956,11 @@ For example, the macOS system clock resolution is 1 μs so
 (time-convert nil t) now acts like (time-convert nil 1000000).
 Formerly, time-convert used a clock resolution of 1 ns regardless.
 
++++
+** 'format-time-string' no longer pads %-N excessively.
+Insteads, it pads to the resolution of the timestamp when the
+timestamp resolution is greater than 1 ns.
+
 +++
 ** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
 (encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 0d0a8a5922..a6cc9c9f05 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1430,6 +1430,42 @@ format_time_string (char const *format, ptrdiff_t formatlen,
   return result;
 }
 
+/* Yield the number of decimal digits needed to output a time with the
+   clock frequency HZ (0 < HZ <= TIMESPEC_HZ / 10), without losing info.
+   But if HZ is 1, yield 1.  0 < result < LOG10_TIMESPEC_HZ.  */
+
+static int
+hz_width (int hz)
+{
+  int i = 0;
+  for (int r = 1; r < hz; r *= 10)
+    i++;
+  return i | !i;
+}
+
+/* Modify FORMAT, of length FORMATLEN and with FORMAT[FORMATLEN] == '\0',
+   in place, replacing each "%-N" with "%9N", "%6N", or whatever
+   number of digits is appropriate for min (HZ, TIMESPEC_HZ).
+   HZ is a positive integer.  */
+
+static void
+replace_percent_minus_N (char *format, ptrdiff_t formatlen, Lisp_Object hz)
+{
+  for (char *f = format; f < format + formatlen; f++)
+    if (f[0] == '%')
+      {
+        if (f[1] == '-' && f[2] == 'N')
+          {
+            f[1] = (FIXNUMP (hz) && XFIXNUM (hz) <= TIMESPEC_HZ / 10
+		    ? '0' + hz_width (XFIXNUM (hz))
+		    : '9');
+            f += 2;
+          }
+        else
+          f += f[1] == '%';
+      }
+}
+
 DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
        doc: /* Use FORMAT-STRING to format the time value TIME.
 A time value that is omitted or nil stands for the current time,
@@ -1484,7 +1520,7 @@ DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
 A %-sequence can contain optional flags, field width, and a modifier
 (in that order) after the `%'.  The flags are:
 
-`-' Do not pad the field.
+`-' Do not pad the field.  %-N means to not pad past TIME's resolution.
 `_' Pad with spaces.
 `0' Pad with zeros.
 `+' Pad with zeros and put `+' before nonnegative year numbers with >4 digits.
@@ -1508,14 +1544,21 @@ DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
 usage: (format-time-string FORMAT-STRING &optional TIME ZONE)  */)
   (Lisp_Object format_string, Lisp_Object timeval, Lisp_Object zone)
 {
-  struct timespec t = lisp_time_argument (timeval);
+  struct lisp_time lt = lisp_time_struct (timeval, 0);
+  struct timespec t = lisp_to_timespec (lt);
+  if (! timespec_valid_p (t))
+    time_overflow ();
   struct tm tm;
 
-  CHECK_STRING (format_string);
+  /* Convert FORMAT_STRING to the locale's encoding, and modify
+     any %-N formats in the copy to be the system clock resolution.  */
   format_string = code_convert_string_norecord (format_string,
 						Vlocale_coding_system, 1);
-  return format_time_string (SSDATA (format_string), SBYTES (format_string),
-			     t, zone, &tm);
+  char *format = SSDATA (format_string);
+  ptrdiff_t formatlen = SBYTES (format_string);
+  replace_percent_minus_N (format, formatlen, lt.hz);
+
+  return format_time_string (format, formatlen, t, zone, &tm);
 }
 
 DEFUN ("decode-time", Fdecode_time, Sdecode_time, 0, 3, 0,
diff --git a/test/src/timefns-tests.el b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
index 08d06f27d9..0d79152f8a 100644
--- a/test/src/timefns-tests.el
+++ b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
@@ -128,7 +128,7 @@ format-time-string-with-bignum-on-32-bit
 (ert-deftest format-time-string-padding-minimal-deletes-unneeded-zeros ()
   (let ((ref-time (encode-time '((123450 . 1000000) 0 0 15 2 2000 - - t))))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-:::z" ref-time "FJT-12") "+12"))
-    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "12345"))
+    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "123450"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-6N" ref-time t) "12345"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-m" ref-time t) "2")))) ;not "02"
 
@@ -137,7 +137,7 @@ format-time-string-padding-minimal-retains-needed-zeros
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-4z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%4z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
-    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "00345"))
+    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "003450"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-3N" ref-time t) "003"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%3N" ref-time t) "003"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-m" ref-time t) "10")) ;not "1"
@@ -165,6 +165,14 @@ format-time-string-padding-zeros-adds-on-insignificant-side
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%9N" ref-time t) "123000000"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%6N" ref-time t) "123000"))))
 
+(ert-deftest format-time-string-%-N ()
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 10)) "0"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 11)) "00"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100)) "00"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 101)) "000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100000000)) "00000000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100000001)) "000000000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 1000000000)) "000000000")))
 
 (ert-deftest time-equal-p-nil-nil ()
   (should (time-equal-p nil nil)))
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #7: 0006-Use-TICKS-.-HZ-for-current-time-etc.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 6915 bytes --]

From c8b1fbb36aa0dee050dd7eea5fed9760c410a541 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 6/6] Use (TICKS . HZ) for current-time etc.

* src/timefns.c (CURRENT_TIME_LIST): Change default to false.
All documentation changed.
---
 doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi |  6 +++---
 doc/lispref/files.texi              | 14 +++++++-------
 doc/lispref/intro.texi              |  2 +-
 doc/lispref/os.texi                 | 15 +++++++--------
 etc/NEWS                            |  8 ++++++++
 src/timefns.c                       | 26 ++++++++++++--------------
 6 files changed, 38 insertions(+), 33 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index 466d7f0e60..afaed10cdf 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -15343,9 +15343,9 @@ Files List
 100
 @end group
 @group
-(20615 27034 579989 697000)
-(17905 55681 0 0)
-(20615 26327 734791 805000)
+(1351051674579989697 . 1000000000)
+(1173477761000000000 . 1000000000)
+(1351050967734791805 . 1000000000)
 13188
 "-rw-r--r--"
 @end group
diff --git a/doc/lispref/files.texi b/doc/lispref/files.texi
index d8b55b114a..4394f64a32 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/files.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/files.texi
@@ -1423,9 +1423,9 @@ File Attributes
 @group
 (file-attributes "files.texi" 'string)
      @result{}  (nil 1 "lh" "users"
-          (20614 64019 50040 152000)
-          (20000 23 0 0)
-          (20614 64555 902289 872000)
+          (1351023123050040152 . 1000000000)
+          (1310720023000000000 . 1000000000)
+          (1351023659902289872 . 1000000000)
           122295 "-rw-rw-rw-"
           t 6473924464520138
           1014478468)
@@ -1449,13 +1449,13 @@ File Attributes
 @item "users"
 is in the group with name @samp{users}.
 
-@item (20614 64019 50040 152000)
+@item (1351023123050040152 . 1000000000)
 was last accessed on October 23, 2012, at 20:12:03.050040152 UTC.
 
-@item (20000 23 0 0)
-was last modified on July 15, 2001, at 08:53:43 UTC.
+@item (1310720023000000000 . 1000000000)
+was last modified on July 15, 2001, at 08:53:43.000000000 UTC.
 
-@item (20614 64555 902289 872000)
+@item (1351023659902289872 . 1000000000)
 last had its status changed on October 23, 2012, at 20:20:59.902289872 UTC.
 
 @item 122295
diff --git a/doc/lispref/intro.texi b/doc/lispref/intro.texi
index 5afd2f4ecf..d1a3fef7a4 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/intro.texi
@@ -503,7 +503,7 @@ Version Info
 @example
 @group
 emacs-build-time
-     @result{} (20614 63694 515336 438000)
+     @result{} (1650228902637038831 . 1000000000)
 @end group
 @end example
 @end defvar
diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 30ece4aeff..ae551b0f71 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1359,9 +1359,6 @@ Time of Day
 @tex
 $high \times 2^{16} + low + micro \times 10^{-6} + pico \times 10^{-12}$.
 @end tex
-In some cases, functions may default to returning two- or
-three-element lists, with omitted @var{micro} and @var{pico}
-components defaulting to zero.
 On all current machines @var{pico} is a multiple of 1000, but this
 may change as higher-resolution clocks become available.
 @end itemize
@@ -1415,11 +1412,13 @@ Time of Day
 
 @defun current-time
 This function returns the current time as a Lisp timestamp.
-Although the timestamp takes the form @code{(@var{high} @var{low}
-@var{micro} @var{pico})} in the current Emacs release, this is
-planned to change in a future Emacs version.  You can use the
-@code{time-convert} function to convert a timestamp to some other
-form.  @xref{Time Conversion}.
+The timestamp has the form @code{(@var{ticks} . @var{hz})} where
+@var{ticks} counts clock ticks and @var{hz} is the clock ticks per second.
+
+In Emacs 28 and earlier, the returned timestamp had the list form
+@code{(@var{high} @var{low} @var{usec} @var{psec})}.  You can use
+@code{(time-convert nil 'list)} to return the current time in this
+older form.  @xref{Time Conversion}.
 @end defun
 
 @defun float-time &optional time
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index d9635cce46..c0b44effc6 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -202,6 +202,14 @@ speakers of the Tamil language.  To get back the previous behavior,
 use the new 'tamil-itrans-digits' and 'tamil-inscript-digits' input
 methods instead.
 
++++
+** current-time and related functions now yield (TICKS . HZ) timestamps.
+Previously they yielded timestamps of the forms (HI LO US PS), (HI LO
+US) or (HI LO), which were less regular and less efficient and which
+lacked information about clock resolution.  This long-planned change
+was documented in Emacs 27.  To convert a timestamp X to the old
+4-element list form, you can use (time-convert X 'list).
+
 \f
 * Changes in Emacs 29.1
 
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index a6cc9c9f05..286d5eb2b8 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -69,12 +69,11 @@ Copyright (C) 1985-1987, 1989, 1993-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 # define FASTER_TIMEFNS 1
 #endif
 
-/* Although current-time etc. generate list-format timestamps
-   (HI LO US PS), the plan is to change these functions to generate
-   frequency-based timestamps (TICKS . HZ) in a future release.
-   To try this now, compile with -DCURRENT_TIME_LIST=0.  */
+/* current-time etc. generate (TICKS . HZ) timestamps.
+   To change that to the old 4-element list format (HI LO US PS),
+   compile with -DCURRENT_TIME_LIST=1.  */
 #ifndef CURRENT_TIME_LIST
-enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = true };
+enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = false };
 #endif
 
 /* Clock resolution of struct timespec.  */
@@ -1861,15 +1860,14 @@ DEFUN ("time-convert", Ftime_convert, Stime_convert, 1, 2, 0,
 
 DEFUN ("current-time", Fcurrent_time, Scurrent_time, 0, 0, 0,
        doc: /* Return the current time, as the number of seconds since 1970-01-01 00:00:00.
-The time is returned as a list of integers (HIGH LOW USEC PSEC).
-HIGH has the most significant bits of the seconds, while LOW has the
-least significant 16 bits.  USEC and PSEC are the microsecond and
-picosecond counts.
-
-In a future Emacs version, the format of the returned timestamp is
-planned to change.  Use `time-convert' if you need a particular
-timestamp form; for example, (time-convert nil \\='integer) returns
-the current time in seconds.  */)
+The time is returned as a pair of integers (TICKS . HZ), where TICKS
+counts clock ticks and HZ is the clock ticks per second.
+
+In Emacs 28 and earlier, the returned timestamp had the form (HIGH LOW
+USEC PSEC), where HIGH is the most significant bits of the seconds,
+LOW the least significant 16 bits, and USEC and PSEC are the
+microsecond and picosecond counts.  Use \(time-convert nil \\='list)
+if you need this older timestamp form.  */)
   (void)
 {
   return make_lisp_realtime (current_timespec ());
-- 
2.35.1

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2957 bytes --]

Here are the main points I see about making timestamps work better in 
Org mode, and related patches to how Emacs handles timestamps.

* Max would like encode-time to treat a list (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY) as if 
it were (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY nil -1 nil), as that would be more 
convenient for how Org mode deals with ambiguous local timestamps. This 
is relatively easy to add for Emacs 29+, and is done in first of the 
attached proposed patches to Emacs master.

* As I understand it, Max would like a function that emulate Emacs 29 
encode-time with one argument, even if running in Emacs versions back to 
Emacs 25. I suppose such a function would also need to implement Emacs 
27+ encode-time's support for subsecond resolution. E.g., 
(org-encode-time '((44604411568 . 1000000000) 55 0 19 4 2022 - -1 t)) 
should return (1650329744604411568 . 1000000000) even in Emacs 25 and 26.

* There are three other Emacs timestamp changes I should mention that 
might be relevant to Org mode:

** 1. Although in Emacs 28 functions like (time-convert nil t) return a 
timestamp resolution of 1 ns, in Emacs 29 I plan to fix them so that 
they return the system clock resolution, which is often coarser than 1 
ns. This is done in the 4th attached patch.

** 2. In Emacs 29 format-time-string should support a new format "%-N" 
which outputs only enough digits for the system clock resolution. (This 
is the same as GNU "date".) This is done in the 5th attached patch.

** 3. Emacs 29 current-time and related functions should generate a 
(TICKS . HZ) timestamp instead of the old (HIGH LOW MICROSECS PICOSECS) 
timestamp. This change has been planned for some time; it was announced 
in Emacs 27. As far as I know Org mode is already ready for this change 
but I thought I'd mention it again here. This is done in the last 
attached patch.

* My last topic in this email is Max's request for a feature that I'm 
not planning to put into Emacs 29 as it'll require more thought. This 
addresses the problem where your TZ is "Africa/Juba" and you want to 
encode a timestamp like "2021-01-31 23:30" which is ambiguous since at 
24:00 that day Juba moved standard time back by an hour. Unfortunately 
the underlying C mktime function does not allow disambiguation in the 
rare situation where standard time moves further west of Greenwich. 
Addressing this problem would require rewriting mktime from scratch in 
Elisp, or using heuristics that would occasionally fail, or (my 
favorite) extending glibc mktime to treat tm_isdst values other than 
-1,0,1 to support disambiguating such timestamps. In the meantime, one 
can disambiguate such timestamps in Elisp by using numeric time zones, e.g.:

   (format-time-string "%F %T %z"
		      (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 1 2021 - -1 TZ))
		      "Africa/Juba")

yields "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0200" if TZ is 7200, and "2021-01-31 
23:30:00 +0300" if TZ is 10800. And perhaps this is the right way to go 
in the long run anyway.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Support-encode-time-list-s-m-h-D-M-Y.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 4727 bytes --]

From 3d02a8e1192a782a16ffdee4940612f69a12629f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:26 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 1/6] Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))

* src/timefns.c (Fencode_time): Add support for a 6-elt list arg.
Requested by Max Nikulin for Org (bug#54764).
* test/src/timefns-tests.el (encode-time-alternate-apis): New test.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi       |  5 +++++
 etc/NEWS                  |  5 +++++
 src/timefns.c             | 21 +++++++++++++++------
 test/src/timefns-tests.el |  9 +++++++++
 4 files changed, 34 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index cabae08970..bfcd51318e 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1660,6 +1660,11 @@ Time Conversion
 handle situations like this you can use a numeric @var{zone} to
 disambiguate instead.
 
+The first argument can also be a list @code{(@var{second} @var{minute}
+@var{hour} @var{day} @var{month} @var{year})}, which is treated like
+the list @code{(@var{second} @var{minute} @var{hour} @var{day}
+@var{month} @var{year} nil -1 nil)}.
+
 As an obsolescent calling convention, this function can be given six
 or more arguments.  The first six arguments @var{second},
 @var{minute}, @var{hour}, @var{day}, @var{month}, and @var{year}
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 3e7788277d..c5a136ea68 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1950,6 +1950,11 @@ For example, '(time-add nil '(1 . 1000))' no longer warns that the
 '(1 . 1000)' acts like '(1000 . 1000000)'.  This warning, which was a
 temporary transition aid for Emacs 27, has served its purpose.
 
++++
+** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
+(encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
+(encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR nil -1 nil)).
+
 +++
 ** 'date-to-time' now assumes earliest values if its argument lacks
 month, day, or time.  For example, (date-to-time "2021-12-04") now
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 7a4a7075ed..b0b84a438c 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1620,6 +1620,9 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
 saving time, nil for standard time, and -1 to cause the daylight
 saving flag to be guessed.
 
+TIME can also be a list (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR), which is
+equivalent to (SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR nil -1 nil).
+
 As an obsolescent calling convention, if this function is called with
 6 or more arguments, the first 6 arguments are SECOND, MINUTE, HOUR,
 DAY, MONTH, and YEAR, and specify the components of a decoded time.
@@ -1645,7 +1648,7 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
   if (nargs == 1)
     {
       Lisp_Object tail = a;
-      for (int i = 0; i < 9; i++, tail = XCDR (tail))
+      for (int i = 0; i < 6; i++, tail = XCDR (tail))
 	CHECK_CONS (tail);
       secarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       minarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
@@ -1653,11 +1656,17 @@ DEFUN ("encode-time", Fencode_time, Sencode_time, 1, MANY, 0,
       mdayarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       monarg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
       yeararg = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
-      a = XCDR (a);
-      Lisp_Object dstflag = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
-      zone = XCAR (a);
-      if (SYMBOLP (dstflag) && !FIXNUMP (zone) && !CONSP (zone))
-	tm.tm_isdst = !NILP (dstflag);
+      if (! NILP (a))
+	{
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  a = XCDR (a);
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  Lisp_Object dstflag = XCAR (a); a = XCDR (a);
+	  CHECK_CONS (a);
+	  zone = XCAR (a);
+	  if (SYMBOLP (dstflag) && !FIXNUMP (zone) && !CONSP (zone))
+	    tm.tm_isdst = !NILP (dstflag);
+	}
     }
   else if (nargs < 6)
     xsignal2 (Qwrong_number_of_arguments, Qencode_time, make_fixnum (nargs));
diff --git a/test/src/timefns-tests.el b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
index e7c464472d..08d06f27d9 100644
--- a/test/src/timefns-tests.el
+++ b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
@@ -225,6 +225,15 @@ encode-time-dst-numeric-zone
              (encode-time '(29 31 17 30 4 2019 2 t 7200))
              '(23752 27217))))
 
+(ert-deftest encode-time-alternate-apis ()
+  (let* ((time '(30 30 12 15 6 1970))
+	 (time-1 (append time '(nil -1 nil)))
+	 (etime (encode-time time)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (encode-time time-1)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time time)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time time-1)))
+    (should (time-equal-p etime (apply #'encode-time (append time '(nil)))))))
+
 (ert-deftest float-time-precision ()
   (should (= (float-time '(0 1 0 4025)) 1.000000004025))
   (should (= (float-time '(1000000004025 . 1000000000000)) 1.000000004025))
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: 0002-Refactor-to-simplify-clock-resolution-support.patch --]
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From 68bd5fdbb6a94fd90575e2e2199365a0c2b9db68 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:26 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 2/6] Refactor to simplify clock resolution support

* src/timefns.c (timespec_mpz, timespec_ticks):
New args HZ, RES.  All callers changed.
(timespec_clockres_to_lisp): New function,
extended from timespec_to_lisp.
(timespec_to_lisp): Use it.
(make_lisp_time_clockres): New function, extended from make_lisp_time.
(make_lisp_time): Use it.
---
 src/timefns.c | 61 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---------------
 1 file changed, 43 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)

diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index b0b84a438c..3f8efadf54 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -482,30 +482,37 @@ mpz_set_time (mpz_t rop, time_t t)
     mpz_set_uintmax (rop, t);
 }
 
-/* Store into mpz[0] a clock tick count for T, assuming a
-   TIMESPEC_HZ-frequency clock.  Use mpz[1] as a temp.  */
+/* Store into mpz[0] a clock tick count for T, assuming a HZ-frequency
+   clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).
+   Use mpz[1] as a temp.  */
 static void
-timespec_mpz (struct timespec t)
+timespec_mpz (struct timespec t, long int hz, long int res)
 {
-  /* mpz[0] = sec * TIMESPEC_HZ + nsec.  */
-  mpz_set_ui (mpz[0], t.tv_nsec);
+  /* mpz[0] = sec * hz + nsec / res.  */
+  mpz_set_ui (mpz[0], t.tv_nsec / res);
   mpz_set_time (mpz[1], t.tv_sec);
-  mpz_addmul_ui (mpz[0], mpz[1], TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  mpz_addmul_ui (mpz[0], mpz[1], hz);
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp integer counting TIMESPEC_HZ ticks.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp integer counting HZ ticks each consisting
+   of RES ns.  */
 static Lisp_Object
-timespec_ticks (struct timespec t)
+timespec_ticks (struct timespec t, long int hz, long int res)
 {
+  eassume (0 <= t.tv_nsec && t.tv_nsec < TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (0 < hz && hz <= TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (0 < res && res <= TIMESPEC_HZ);
+  eassume (hz * res == TIMESPEC_HZ);
+
   /* For speed, use intmax_t arithmetic if it will do.  */
   intmax_t accum;
   if (FASTER_TIMEFNS
-      && !INT_MULTIPLY_WRAPV (t.tv_sec, TIMESPEC_HZ, &accum)
-      && !INT_ADD_WRAPV (t.tv_nsec, accum, &accum))
+      && !INT_MULTIPLY_WRAPV (t.tv_sec, hz, &accum)
+      && !INT_ADD_WRAPV (t.tv_nsec / res, accum, &accum))
     return make_int (accum);
 
   /* Fall back on bignum arithmetic.  */
-  timespec_mpz (t);
+  timespec_mpz (t, hz, res);
   return make_integer_mpz ();
 }
 
@@ -565,9 +572,26 @@ lisp_time_seconds (struct lisp_time t)
   return make_integer_mpz ();
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
+/* Return (TICKS . LISPHZ) for time T, assuming a LISPHZ,HZ,RES clock.  */
+static Lisp_Object
+timespec_clockres_to_lisp (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
+			   long int hz, long int res)
+{
+  return Fcons (timespec_ticks (t, hz, res), lisphz);
+}
+
+/* Return (TICKS . HZ) for time T, assuming a clock resolution of 1 ns.  */
 Lisp_Object
-make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
+timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
+{
+  return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
+}
+
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming a LISPHZ or HZ-frequency
+   clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).  */
+static Lisp_Object
+make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
+			 long int hz, long int res)
 {
   if (CURRENT_TIME_LIST)
     {
@@ -577,14 +601,14 @@ make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 		    make_fixnum (ns / 1000), make_fixnum (ns % 1000 * 1000));
     }
   else
-    return timespec_to_lisp (t);
+    return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, lisphz, hz, res);
 }
 
-/* Return (TICKS . HZ) for time T.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
 Lisp_Object
-timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
+make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 {
-  return Fcons (timespec_ticks (t), timespec_hz);
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
 }
 
 /* Return NUMERATOR / DENOMINATOR, rounded to the nearest double.
@@ -747,7 +771,8 @@ decode_time_components (enum timeform form,
       }
 
     case TIMEFORM_NIL:
-      return decode_ticks_hz (timespec_ticks (current_timespec ()),
+      return decode_ticks_hz (timespec_ticks (current_timespec (),
+					      TIMESPEC_HZ, 1),
 			      timespec_hz, result, dresult);
 
     default:
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #4: 0003-Add-Gnulib-gettime-res-module.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 5226 bytes --]

From 8c25372709d256d83858be454987137dc202b725 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 3/6] Add Gnulib gettime-res module

* admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
* lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
* lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
---
 admin/merge-gnulib |  3 +-
 lib/gettime-res.c  | 78 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 lib/gnulib.mk.in   |  9 ++++++
 m4/gnulib-comp.m4  |  3 ++
 4 files changed, 92 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
 create mode 100644 lib/gettime-res.c

diff --git a/admin/merge-gnulib b/admin/merge-gnulib
index ea3d23686f..0279d1f99d 100755
--- a/admin/merge-gnulib
+++ b/admin/merge-gnulib
@@ -37,7 +37,8 @@ GNULIB_MODULES=
   fchmodat fcntl fcntl-h fdopendir file-has-acl
   filemode filename filevercmp flexmember fpieee
   free-posix fstatat fsusage fsync futimens
-  getloadavg getopt-gnu getrandom gettime gettimeofday gitlog-to-changelog
+  getloadavg getopt-gnu getrandom
+  gettime gettime-res gettimeofday gitlog-to-changelog
   ieee754-h ignore-value intprops largefile libgmp lstat
   manywarnings memmem-simple mempcpy memrchr minmax mkostemp mktime
   nanosleep nproc nstrftime
diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..611f83ad27
--- /dev/null
+++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
@@ -0,0 +1,78 @@
+/* Get the system clock resolution.
+
+   Copyright 2021-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+
+   This file is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
+   it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License as
+   published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the
+   License, or (at your option) any later version.
+
+   This file is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
+   but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
+   MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
+   GNU Lesser General Public License for more details.
+
+   You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public License
+   along with this program.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.  */
+
+/* Written by Paul Eggert.  */
+
+#include <config.h>
+
+#include "timespec.h"
+
+static long int _GL_ATTRIBUTE_CONST
+gcd (long int a, long int b)
+{
+  while (b != 0)
+    {
+      long int r = a % b;
+      a = b;
+      b = r;
+    }
+  return a;
+}
+
+/* Return the system time resolution in nanoseconds.  */
+
+long int
+gettime_res (void)
+{
+  struct timespec res;
+#if defined CLOCK_REALTIME && HAVE_CLOCK_GETRES
+  clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, &res);
+#elif defined HAVE_TIMESPEC_GETRES
+  timespec_getres (&res, TIME_UTC);
+#else
+  /* Guess high and let the later code deduce better.  */
+  res.tv_sec = 1;
+  res.tv_nsec = 0;
+#endif
+
+  /* On all Gnulib platforms the following calculations do not overflow.  */
+
+  long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
+  long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
+
+  /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
+     too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
+     return the timer interval.  For example, on AIX 7.2 POWER8
+     clock_getres yields 10 ms even though clock_gettime yields 1 µs
+     resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
+     trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
+     bounds on resolution.  */
+  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
+    {
+      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
+      r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
+    }
+
+  return r;
+}
+
+/*
+ * Hey Emacs!
+ * Local Variables:
+ * coding: utf-8
+ * End:
+ */
diff --git a/lib/gnulib.mk.in b/lib/gnulib.mk.in
index bbb05fdba5..fbc199faaf 100644
--- a/lib/gnulib.mk.in
+++ b/lib/gnulib.mk.in
@@ -114,6 +114,7 @@
 #  getopt-gnu \
 #  getrandom \
 #  gettime \
+#  gettime-res \
 #  gettimeofday \
 #  gitlog-to-changelog \
 #  ieee754-h \
@@ -2188,6 +2189,14 @@ libgnu_a_SOURCES += gettime.c
 endif
 ## end   gnulib module gettime
 
+## begin gnulib module gettime-res
+ifeq (,$(OMIT_GNULIB_MODULE_gettime-res))
+
+libgnu_a_SOURCES += gettime-res.c
+
+endif
+## end   gnulib module gettime-res
+
 ## begin gnulib module gettimeofday
 ifeq (,$(OMIT_GNULIB_MODULE_gettimeofday))
 
diff --git a/m4/gnulib-comp.m4 b/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
index fb5f1b52a4..a04ec44be9 100644
--- a/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
+++ b/m4/gnulib-comp.m4
@@ -112,6 +112,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
   # Code from module getrandom:
   # Code from module gettext-h:
   # Code from module gettime:
+  # Code from module gettime-res:
   # Code from module gettimeofday:
   # Code from module gitlog-to-changelog:
   # Code from module group-member:
@@ -371,6 +372,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
                  [test $HAVE_GETRANDOM = 0 || test $REPLACE_GETRANDOM = 1])
   gl_SYS_RANDOM_MODULE_INDICATOR([getrandom])
   gl_GETTIME
+  gl_GETTIME_RES
   gl_FUNC_GETTIMEOFDAY
   gl_CONDITIONAL([GL_COND_OBJ_GETTIMEOFDAY],
                  [test $HAVE_GETTIMEOFDAY = 0 || test $REPLACE_GETTIMEOFDAY = 1])
@@ -1270,6 +1272,7 @@ AC_DEFUN
   lib/getopt_int.h
   lib/getrandom.c
   lib/gettext.h
+  lib/gettime-res.c
   lib/gettime.c
   lib/gettimeofday.c
   lib/gl_openssl.h
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #5: 0004-Use-CLOCK_REALTIME-resolution-for-TICKS-.-HZ.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 8623 bytes --]

From 9c42f5f9ebc5b4e5d7bd0c33a0ce7de27c27d893 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 4/6] Use CLOCK_REALTIME resolution for (TICKS . HZ)

This gives Elisp code a clearer view of timestamps, for uses like
(time-convert nil t).
* src/emacs.c (main): Call init_timefns earlier.
* src/keyboard.c (Fcurrent_idle_time):
* src/sysdep.c (Fcurrent_time):
Use make_lisp_realtime instead of make_lisp_time,
for realtime timestamps (e.g., they come from gettime).
* src/sysdep.c (make_lisp_s_us): Also define if HAVE_GETRUSAGE.
Simplify by calling make_lisp_time_clockres.
(Fget_internal_run_time): Fix resolution by calling make_lisp_s_us.
* src/timefns.c (realtime_lisphz, realtime_hz, realtime_res):
New static vars.
(init_time_res): New function.
(init_timefns): Initialize the new vars
(make_lisp_time_clockres): Now extern.
(make_lisp_realtime): New function.
---
 etc/NEWS       |  6 ++++++
 src/emacs.c    |  7 ++++---
 src/fileio.c   |  5 ++++-
 src/keyboard.c |  4 ++--
 src/sysdep.c   | 14 ++++++--------
 src/systime.h  |  3 +++
 src/timefns.c  | 36 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---
 7 files changed, 58 insertions(+), 17 deletions(-)

diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index c5a136ea68..38317fef03 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1950,6 +1950,12 @@ For example, '(time-add nil '(1 . 1000))' no longer warns that the
 '(1 . 1000)' acts like '(1000 . 1000000)'.  This warning, which was a
 temporary transition aid for Emacs 27, has served its purpose.
 
++++
+** (TICKS . HZ) timestamps now report system clock resolution.
+For example, the macOS system clock resolution is 1 μs so
+(time-convert nil t) now acts like (time-convert nil 1000000).
+Formerly, time-convert used a clock resolution of 1 ns regardless.
+
 +++
 ** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
 (encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
diff --git a/src/emacs.c b/src/emacs.c
index 3100852b2c..15a4a25770 100644
--- a/src/emacs.c
+++ b/src/emacs.c
@@ -1894,6 +1894,10 @@ main (int argc, char **argv)
 
   init_signals ();
 
+  /* This calls putenv and so must precede init_process_emacs.
+     It must also precede init_window_once, which creates timestamps.  */
+  init_timefns ();
+
   noninteractive1 = noninteractive;
 
   /* Perform basic initializations (not merely interning symbols).  */
@@ -2383,9 +2387,6 @@ main (int argc, char **argv)
 
   init_charset ();
 
-  /* This calls putenv and so must precede init_process_emacs.  */
-  init_timefns ();
-
   init_editfns ();
 
   /* These two call putenv.  */
diff --git a/src/fileio.c b/src/fileio.c
index c418036fc6..2a857d10dd 100644
--- a/src/fileio.c
+++ b/src/fileio.c
@@ -5840,7 +5840,10 @@ DEFUN ("set-visited-file-modtime", Fset_visited_file_modtime,
 	  mtime = make_timespec (0, UNKNOWN_MODTIME_NSECS - flag);
 	}
       else
-	mtime = lisp_time_argument (time_flag);
+	{
+	  mtime = lisp_time_argument (time_flag);
+	  /* FIXME: Do not assume mtime resolution is 1 ns.  */
+	}
 
       current_buffer->modtime = mtime;
       current_buffer->modtime_size = -1;
diff --git a/src/keyboard.c b/src/keyboard.c
index 19c8fdf1dc..3eb0694eda 100644
--- a/src/keyboard.c
+++ b/src/keyboard.c
@@ -4668,8 +4668,8 @@ DEFUN ("current-idle-time", Fcurrent_idle_time, Scurrent_idle_time, 0, 0, 0,
   (void)
 {
   if (timespec_valid_p (timer_idleness_start_time))
-    return make_lisp_time (timespec_sub (current_timespec (),
-					 timer_idleness_start_time));
+    return make_lisp_realtime (timespec_sub (current_timespec (),
+					     timer_idleness_start_time));
 
   return Qnil;
 }
diff --git a/src/sysdep.c b/src/sysdep.c
index 36636d0ed5..b15d5c359e 100644
--- a/src/sysdep.c
+++ b/src/sysdep.c
@@ -3169,16 +3169,14 @@ list_system_processes (void)
 
 #endif /* !defined (WINDOWSNT) */
 
-#if defined __FreeBSD__ || defined DARWIN_OS || defined __OpenBSD__
+#if (defined HAVE_GETRUSAGE \
+     || defined __FreeBSD__ || defined DARWIN_OS || defined __OpenBSD__)
 
 static Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_s_us (time_t s, long us)
 {
-  Lisp_Object sec = make_int (s);
-  Lisp_Object usec = make_fixnum (us);
-  Lisp_Object hz = make_fixnum (1000000);
-  Lisp_Object ticks = CALLN (Fplus, CALLN (Ftimes, sec, hz), usec);
-  return Ftime_convert (Fcons (ticks, hz), Qnil);
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (make_timespec (s, us * 1000),
+				  make_fixnum (1000000), 1000000, 1000);
 }
 
 #endif
@@ -4238,7 +4236,7 @@ DEFUN ("get-internal-run-time", Fget_internal_run_time, Sget_internal_run_time,
 #ifdef HAVE_GETRUSAGE
   struct rusage usage;
   time_t secs;
-  int usecs;
+  long int usecs;
 
   if (getrusage (RUSAGE_SELF, &usage) < 0)
     /* This shouldn't happen.  What action is appropriate?  */
@@ -4252,7 +4250,7 @@ DEFUN ("get-internal-run-time", Fget_internal_run_time, Sget_internal_run_time,
       usecs -= 1000000;
       secs++;
     }
-  return make_lisp_time (make_timespec (secs, usecs * 1000));
+  return make_lisp_s_us (secs, usecs);
 #else /* ! HAVE_GETRUSAGE  */
 #ifdef WINDOWSNT
   return w32_get_internal_run_time ();
diff --git a/src/systime.h b/src/systime.h
index 75088bd4a6..419da80826 100644
--- a/src/systime.h
+++ b/src/systime.h
@@ -86,7 +86,10 @@ timespec_valid_p (struct timespec t)
 
 /* defined in timefns.c */
 extern struct timeval make_timeval (struct timespec) ATTRIBUTE_CONST;
+extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_realtime (struct timespec);
 extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_time (struct timespec);
+extern Lisp_Object make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec, Lisp_Object,
+					    long int, long int);
 extern Lisp_Object timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec);
 extern bool list4_to_timespec (Lisp_Object, Lisp_Object, Lisp_Object,
 			       Lisp_Object, struct timespec *);
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 3f8efadf54..0d0a8a5922 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -77,12 +77,17 @@ Copyright (C) 1985-1987, 1989, 1993-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = true };
 #endif
 
+/* Clock resolution of struct timespec.  */
 #if FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (1000000000)
 static Lisp_Object timespec_hz;
 #else
 # define timespec_hz make_fixnum (TIMESPEC_HZ)
 #endif
 
+/* Clock resolution of realtime, in various forms.  HZ*RES == TIMESPEC_HZ.  */
+static Lisp_Object realtime_lisphz;
+static long int realtime_hz, realtime_res;
+
 #define TRILLION 1000000000000
 #if FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (TRILLION)
 static Lisp_Object trillion;
@@ -302,9 +307,24 @@ tzlookup (Lisp_Object zone, bool settz)
   return new_tz;
 }
 
+static void
+init_time_res (void)
+{
+  realtime_res = gettime_res ();
+  eassume (0 < realtime_res);
+  if (TIMESPEC_HZ < realtime_res)
+    realtime_res = TIMESPEC_HZ;
+  realtime_hz = TIMESPEC_HZ / realtime_res;
+  realtime_lisphz = make_int (realtime_hz);
+}
+
 void
 init_timefns (void)
 {
+  pdumper_do_now_and_after_load (init_time_res);
+  if (FIXNUM_OVERFLOW_P (TIMESPEC_HZ) && !initialized)
+    staticpro (&realtime_lisphz);
+
 #ifdef HAVE_UNEXEC
   /* A valid but unlikely setting for the TZ environment variable.
      It is OK (though a bit slower) if the user chooses this value.  */
@@ -589,7 +609,7 @@ timespec_to_lisp (struct timespec t)
 
 /* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming a LISPHZ or HZ-frequency
    clock with resolution RES ns (so that HZ*RES = TIMESPEC_HZ).  */
-static Lisp_Object
+Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
 			 long int hz, long int res)
 {
@@ -604,13 +624,23 @@ make_lisp_time_clockres (struct timespec t, Lisp_Object lisphz,
     return timespec_clockres_to_lisp (t, lisphz, hz, res);
 }
 
-/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp.  */
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming full resolution.  */
 Lisp_Object
 make_lisp_time (struct timespec t)
 {
   return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, timespec_hz, TIMESPEC_HZ, 1);
 }
 
+/* Convert T to a Lisp timestamp, assuming gettime resolution.  */
+Lisp_Object
+make_lisp_realtime (struct timespec t)
+{
+  if (NILP (realtime_lisphz))
+    abort ();
+  return make_lisp_time_clockres (t, realtime_lisphz,
+				  realtime_hz, realtime_res);
+}
+
 /* Return NUMERATOR / DENOMINATOR, rounded to the nearest double.
    Arguments must be Lisp integers, and DENOMINATOR must be positive.  */
 static double
@@ -1799,7 +1829,7 @@ DEFUN ("current-time", Fcurrent_time, Scurrent_time, 0, 0, 0,
 the current time in seconds.  */)
   (void)
 {
-  return make_lisp_time (current_timespec ());
+  return make_lisp_realtime (current_timespec ());
 }
 
 DEFUN ("current-time-string", Fcurrent_time_string, Scurrent_time_string,
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #6: 0005-Support-format-time-string-N-like-date.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 7510 bytes --]

From 2a8467a5c48a5b7296bce13ccaee01fb80b53704 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 5/6] =?UTF-8?q?Support=20format-time-string=20%-N=20like?=
 =?UTF-8?q?=20=E2=80=98date=E2=80=99?=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

format-time-string now supports "%-N" to mean "do not pad past
timestamp resolution".  This is compatible with GNU 'date'.
* src/timefns.c (hz_width, replace_percent_minus_N): New functions.
(Fformat_time_string): Use them to support %-N.
* test/src/timefns-tests.el (format-time-string-%-N): New test.
(format-time-string-padding-minimal-deletes-unneeded-zeros):
Adjust test to match new behavior.
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi       |  3 +++
 etc/NEWS                  |  5 ++++
 src/timefns.c             | 53 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----
 test/src/timefns-tests.el | 12 +++++++--
 4 files changed, 66 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index bfcd51318e..30ece4aeff 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1897,6 +1897,9 @@ Time Parsing
 @samp{_} pads with blanks, @samp{-}
 suppresses padding, @samp{^} upper-cases letters, and @samp{#}
 reverses the case of letters.
+As a special case, @samp{%-N} suppresses padding past the resolution
+of @var{time}.  For example, if @var{time} is @code{(12345020 . 1000)},
+@samp{%-N} stands for @samp{020}.
 
 You can also specify the field width and type of padding for any of
 these @samp{%}-sequences.  This works as in @code{printf}: you write
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 38317fef03..d9635cce46 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1956,6 +1956,11 @@ For example, the macOS system clock resolution is 1 μs so
 (time-convert nil t) now acts like (time-convert nil 1000000).
 Formerly, time-convert used a clock resolution of 1 ns regardless.
 
++++
+** 'format-time-string' no longer pads %-N excessively.
+Insteads, it pads to the resolution of the timestamp when the
+timestamp resolution is greater than 1 ns.
+
 +++
 ** 'encode-time' now also accepts a 6-element list with just time and date.
 (encode-time (list SECOND MINUTE HOUR DAY MONTH YEAR)) is now short for
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index 0d0a8a5922..a6cc9c9f05 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -1430,6 +1430,42 @@ format_time_string (char const *format, ptrdiff_t formatlen,
   return result;
 }
 
+/* Yield the number of decimal digits needed to output a time with the
+   clock frequency HZ (0 < HZ <= TIMESPEC_HZ / 10), without losing info.
+   But if HZ is 1, yield 1.  0 < result < LOG10_TIMESPEC_HZ.  */
+
+static int
+hz_width (int hz)
+{
+  int i = 0;
+  for (int r = 1; r < hz; r *= 10)
+    i++;
+  return i | !i;
+}
+
+/* Modify FORMAT, of length FORMATLEN and with FORMAT[FORMATLEN] == '\0',
+   in place, replacing each "%-N" with "%9N", "%6N", or whatever
+   number of digits is appropriate for min (HZ, TIMESPEC_HZ).
+   HZ is a positive integer.  */
+
+static void
+replace_percent_minus_N (char *format, ptrdiff_t formatlen, Lisp_Object hz)
+{
+  for (char *f = format; f < format + formatlen; f++)
+    if (f[0] == '%')
+      {
+        if (f[1] == '-' && f[2] == 'N')
+          {
+            f[1] = (FIXNUMP (hz) && XFIXNUM (hz) <= TIMESPEC_HZ / 10
+		    ? '0' + hz_width (XFIXNUM (hz))
+		    : '9');
+            f += 2;
+          }
+        else
+          f += f[1] == '%';
+      }
+}
+
 DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
        doc: /* Use FORMAT-STRING to format the time value TIME.
 A time value that is omitted or nil stands for the current time,
@@ -1484,7 +1520,7 @@ DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
 A %-sequence can contain optional flags, field width, and a modifier
 (in that order) after the `%'.  The flags are:
 
-`-' Do not pad the field.
+`-' Do not pad the field.  %-N means to not pad past TIME's resolution.
 `_' Pad with spaces.
 `0' Pad with zeros.
 `+' Pad with zeros and put `+' before nonnegative year numbers with >4 digits.
@@ -1508,14 +1544,21 @@ DEFUN ("format-time-string", Fformat_time_string, Sformat_time_string, 1, 3, 0,
 usage: (format-time-string FORMAT-STRING &optional TIME ZONE)  */)
   (Lisp_Object format_string, Lisp_Object timeval, Lisp_Object zone)
 {
-  struct timespec t = lisp_time_argument (timeval);
+  struct lisp_time lt = lisp_time_struct (timeval, 0);
+  struct timespec t = lisp_to_timespec (lt);
+  if (! timespec_valid_p (t))
+    time_overflow ();
   struct tm tm;
 
-  CHECK_STRING (format_string);
+  /* Convert FORMAT_STRING to the locale's encoding, and modify
+     any %-N formats in the copy to be the system clock resolution.  */
   format_string = code_convert_string_norecord (format_string,
 						Vlocale_coding_system, 1);
-  return format_time_string (SSDATA (format_string), SBYTES (format_string),
-			     t, zone, &tm);
+  char *format = SSDATA (format_string);
+  ptrdiff_t formatlen = SBYTES (format_string);
+  replace_percent_minus_N (format, formatlen, lt.hz);
+
+  return format_time_string (format, formatlen, t, zone, &tm);
 }
 
 DEFUN ("decode-time", Fdecode_time, Sdecode_time, 0, 3, 0,
diff --git a/test/src/timefns-tests.el b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
index 08d06f27d9..0d79152f8a 100644
--- a/test/src/timefns-tests.el
+++ b/test/src/timefns-tests.el
@@ -128,7 +128,7 @@ format-time-string-with-bignum-on-32-bit
 (ert-deftest format-time-string-padding-minimal-deletes-unneeded-zeros ()
   (let ((ref-time (encode-time '((123450 . 1000000) 0 0 15 2 2000 - - t))))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-:::z" ref-time "FJT-12") "+12"))
-    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "12345"))
+    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "123450"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-6N" ref-time t) "12345"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-m" ref-time t) "2")))) ;not "02"
 
@@ -137,7 +137,7 @@ format-time-string-padding-minimal-retains-needed-zeros
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-4z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%4z" ref-time "IST-5:30") "+530"))
-    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "00345"))
+    (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" ref-time t) "003450"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-3N" ref-time t) "003"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%3N" ref-time t) "003"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%-m" ref-time t) "10")) ;not "1"
@@ -165,6 +165,14 @@ format-time-string-padding-zeros-adds-on-insignificant-side
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%9N" ref-time t) "123000000"))
     (should (equal (format-time-string "%6N" ref-time t) "123000"))))
 
+(ert-deftest format-time-string-%-N ()
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 10)) "0"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 11)) "00"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100)) "00"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 101)) "000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100000000)) "00000000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 100000001)) "000000000"))
+  (should (equal (format-time-string "%-N" '(0 . 1000000000)) "000000000")))
 
 (ert-deftest time-equal-p-nil-nil ()
   (should (time-equal-p nil nil)))
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #7: 0006-Use-TICKS-.-HZ-for-current-time-etc.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 6915 bytes --]

From c8b1fbb36aa0dee050dd7eea5fed9760c410a541 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
Subject: [PATCH 6/6] Use (TICKS . HZ) for current-time etc.

* src/timefns.c (CURRENT_TIME_LIST): Change default to false.
All documentation changed.
---
 doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi |  6 +++---
 doc/lispref/files.texi              | 14 +++++++-------
 doc/lispref/intro.texi              |  2 +-
 doc/lispref/os.texi                 | 15 +++++++--------
 etc/NEWS                            |  8 ++++++++
 src/timefns.c                       | 26 ++++++++++++--------------
 6 files changed, 38 insertions(+), 33 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index 466d7f0e60..afaed10cdf 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -15343,9 +15343,9 @@ Files List
 100
 @end group
 @group
-(20615 27034 579989 697000)
-(17905 55681 0 0)
-(20615 26327 734791 805000)
+(1351051674579989697 . 1000000000)
+(1173477761000000000 . 1000000000)
+(1351050967734791805 . 1000000000)
 13188
 "-rw-r--r--"
 @end group
diff --git a/doc/lispref/files.texi b/doc/lispref/files.texi
index d8b55b114a..4394f64a32 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/files.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/files.texi
@@ -1423,9 +1423,9 @@ File Attributes
 @group
 (file-attributes "files.texi" 'string)
      @result{}  (nil 1 "lh" "users"
-          (20614 64019 50040 152000)
-          (20000 23 0 0)
-          (20614 64555 902289 872000)
+          (1351023123050040152 . 1000000000)
+          (1310720023000000000 . 1000000000)
+          (1351023659902289872 . 1000000000)
           122295 "-rw-rw-rw-"
           t 6473924464520138
           1014478468)
@@ -1449,13 +1449,13 @@ File Attributes
 @item "users"
 is in the group with name @samp{users}.
 
-@item (20614 64019 50040 152000)
+@item (1351023123050040152 . 1000000000)
 was last accessed on October 23, 2012, at 20:12:03.050040152 UTC.
 
-@item (20000 23 0 0)
-was last modified on July 15, 2001, at 08:53:43 UTC.
+@item (1310720023000000000 . 1000000000)
+was last modified on July 15, 2001, at 08:53:43.000000000 UTC.
 
-@item (20614 64555 902289 872000)
+@item (1351023659902289872 . 1000000000)
 last had its status changed on October 23, 2012, at 20:20:59.902289872 UTC.
 
 @item 122295
diff --git a/doc/lispref/intro.texi b/doc/lispref/intro.texi
index 5afd2f4ecf..d1a3fef7a4 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/intro.texi
@@ -503,7 +503,7 @@ Version Info
 @example
 @group
 emacs-build-time
-     @result{} (20614 63694 515336 438000)
+     @result{} (1650228902637038831 . 1000000000)
 @end group
 @end example
 @end defvar
diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index 30ece4aeff..ae551b0f71 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1359,9 +1359,6 @@ Time of Day
 @tex
 $high \times 2^{16} + low + micro \times 10^{-6} + pico \times 10^{-12}$.
 @end tex
-In some cases, functions may default to returning two- or
-three-element lists, with omitted @var{micro} and @var{pico}
-components defaulting to zero.
 On all current machines @var{pico} is a multiple of 1000, but this
 may change as higher-resolution clocks become available.
 @end itemize
@@ -1415,11 +1412,13 @@ Time of Day
 
 @defun current-time
 This function returns the current time as a Lisp timestamp.
-Although the timestamp takes the form @code{(@var{high} @var{low}
-@var{micro} @var{pico})} in the current Emacs release, this is
-planned to change in a future Emacs version.  You can use the
-@code{time-convert} function to convert a timestamp to some other
-form.  @xref{Time Conversion}.
+The timestamp has the form @code{(@var{ticks} . @var{hz})} where
+@var{ticks} counts clock ticks and @var{hz} is the clock ticks per second.
+
+In Emacs 28 and earlier, the returned timestamp had the list form
+@code{(@var{high} @var{low} @var{usec} @var{psec})}.  You can use
+@code{(time-convert nil 'list)} to return the current time in this
+older form.  @xref{Time Conversion}.
 @end defun
 
 @defun float-time &optional time
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index d9635cce46..c0b44effc6 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -202,6 +202,14 @@ speakers of the Tamil language.  To get back the previous behavior,
 use the new 'tamil-itrans-digits' and 'tamil-inscript-digits' input
 methods instead.
 
++++
+** current-time and related functions now yield (TICKS . HZ) timestamps.
+Previously they yielded timestamps of the forms (HI LO US PS), (HI LO
+US) or (HI LO), which were less regular and less efficient and which
+lacked information about clock resolution.  This long-planned change
+was documented in Emacs 27.  To convert a timestamp X to the old
+4-element list form, you can use (time-convert X 'list).
+
 \f
 * Changes in Emacs 29.1
 
diff --git a/src/timefns.c b/src/timefns.c
index a6cc9c9f05..286d5eb2b8 100644
--- a/src/timefns.c
+++ b/src/timefns.c
@@ -69,12 +69,11 @@ Copyright (C) 1985-1987, 1989, 1993-2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 # define FASTER_TIMEFNS 1
 #endif
 
-/* Although current-time etc. generate list-format timestamps
-   (HI LO US PS), the plan is to change these functions to generate
-   frequency-based timestamps (TICKS . HZ) in a future release.
-   To try this now, compile with -DCURRENT_TIME_LIST=0.  */
+/* current-time etc. generate (TICKS . HZ) timestamps.
+   To change that to the old 4-element list format (HI LO US PS),
+   compile with -DCURRENT_TIME_LIST=1.  */
 #ifndef CURRENT_TIME_LIST
-enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = true };
+enum { CURRENT_TIME_LIST = false };
 #endif
 
 /* Clock resolution of struct timespec.  */
@@ -1861,15 +1860,14 @@ DEFUN ("time-convert", Ftime_convert, Stime_convert, 1, 2, 0,
 
 DEFUN ("current-time", Fcurrent_time, Scurrent_time, 0, 0, 0,
        doc: /* Return the current time, as the number of seconds since 1970-01-01 00:00:00.
-The time is returned as a list of integers (HIGH LOW USEC PSEC).
-HIGH has the most significant bits of the seconds, while LOW has the
-least significant 16 bits.  USEC and PSEC are the microsecond and
-picosecond counts.
-
-In a future Emacs version, the format of the returned timestamp is
-planned to change.  Use `time-convert' if you need a particular
-timestamp form; for example, (time-convert nil \\='integer) returns
-the current time in seconds.  */)
+The time is returned as a pair of integers (TICKS . HZ), where TICKS
+counts clock ticks and HZ is the clock ticks per second.
+
+In Emacs 28 and earlier, the returned timestamp had the form (HIGH LOW
+USEC PSEC), where HIGH is the most significant bits of the seconds,
+LOW the least significant 16 bits, and USEC and PSEC are the
+microsecond and picosecond counts.  Use \(time-convert nil \\='list)
+if you need this older timestamp form.  */)
   (void)
 {
   return make_lisp_realtime (current_timespec ());
-- 
2.35.1

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 19:02:03 -0700
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> From 8c25372709d256d83858be454987137dc202b725 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
> Subject: [PATCH 3/6] Add Gnulib gettime-res module
> 
> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.

Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?  If so, can you show
how to test that, or tell where I can find the results of such testing
that someone else did?

If MS-Windows isn't supported by that, I would ask to add such support
before this is installed.

Thanks.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 19:02:03 -0700
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> From 8c25372709d256d83858be454987137dc202b725 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:08:27 -0700
> Subject: [PATCH 3/6] Add Gnulib gettime-res module
> 
> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.

Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?  If so, can you show
how to test that, or tell where I can find the results of such testing
that someone else did?

If MS-Windows isn't supported by that, I would ask to add such support
before this is installed.

Thanks.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 847 bytes --]

On 4/18/22 22:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
>> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
>> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
> Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?

I haven't tested it on that platform, though I expect it to work since 
it relies only on current_timespec and Emacs already uses that.

I just now added some test cases to Gnulib for it; see the patch in the 
first attachment. You can try these tests in your environment by running 
'./gnulib-tool --test gettime-res' in the Gnulib source directory. Or 
you can save time by running './configure; make check' in the directory 
represented by the second attachment, which is a compressed tarball 
containing the output of './gnulib-tool --create-testdir --dir 
test-gettime-res gettime-res'.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-gettime-res-add-tests.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 4055 bytes --]

From f67c0cfb02c920bd89f490c7790f991db45a0bc5 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:13:09 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] gettime-res: add tests

* modules/gettime-res-tests, tests/test-gettime-res.c: New files.
---
 ChangeLog                 |  5 +++
 modules/gettime-res-tests | 12 ++++++
 tests/test-gettime-res.c  | 89 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 3 files changed, 106 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 modules/gettime-res-tests
 create mode 100644 tests/test-gettime-res.c

diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog
index 1e238d14e9..9bab736be4 100644
--- a/ChangeLog
+++ b/ChangeLog
@@ -1,3 +1,8 @@
+2022-04-19  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
+
+	gettime-res: add tests
+	* modules/gettime-res-tests, tests/test-gettime-res.c: New files.
+
 2022-04-16  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
 
 	verify: port to Mac OS 10.7.5
diff --git a/modules/gettime-res-tests b/modules/gettime-res-tests
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..b169f1c187
--- /dev/null
+++ b/modules/gettime-res-tests
@@ -0,0 +1,12 @@
+Files:
+tests/signature.h
+tests/test-gettime-res.c
+
+Depends-on:
+
+configure.ac:
+
+Makefile.am:
+TESTS += test-gettime-res
+check_PROGRAMS += test-gettime-res
+test_gettime_res_LDADD = $(LDADD) $(LIB_CLOCK_GETTIME)
diff --git a/tests/test-gettime-res.c b/tests/test-gettime-res.c
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..0b13f93ec6
--- /dev/null
+++ b/tests/test-gettime-res.c
@@ -0,0 +1,89 @@
+/*
+ * Copyright 2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+ * Written by Paul Eggert.
+ *
+ * This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
+ * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
+ * the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
+ * (at your option) any later version.
+ *
+ * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
+ * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
+ * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
+ * GNU General Public License for more details.
+ *
+ * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
+ * along with this program.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.  */
+
+#include <config.h>
+
+#include <timespec.h>
+
+#include <stdio.h>
+
+int
+main (void)
+{
+  long int res = gettime_res ();
+  printf ("gettime_res returned %ld ns\n", res);
+
+  if (res <= 0)
+    {
+      fprintf (stderr, "gettime_res value %ld not positive\n", res);
+      return 1;
+    }
+
+  if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ)
+    {
+      if (TIMESPEC_HZ % res != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("gettime_res value %ld ns is smaller than %d"
+                    " but does not divide it\n"),
+                   res, TIMESPEC_HZ);
+          return 1;
+        }
+    }
+  else
+    {
+      if (res % TIMESPEC_HZ != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("gettime_res value %ld ns is larger than %d"
+                    " but is not a multiple of it\n"),
+                   res, TIMESPEC_HZ);
+          return 1;
+        }
+    }
+
+  int saw_res = 0;
+
+  for (int i = 0; i < 100000; i++)
+    {
+      struct timespec t = current_timespec ();
+      if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ
+          ? t.tv_nsec % res != 0
+          : t.tv_nsec != 0 || t.tv_sec % (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("current_timespec returned %lld.%09ld which is not"
+                    " a multiple of the resolution, %ld ns\n"),
+                   (long long) t.tv_sec, t.tv_nsec, res);
+          return 1;
+        }
+      if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ
+          ? (t.tv_nsec / res % 2 != 0
+             || t.tv_nsec / res % 5 != 0)
+          : (t.tv_sec / (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) % 2 != 0
+             || t.tv_sec / (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) % 5 != 0))
+        saw_res = 1;
+    }
+
+  if (saw_res == 0)
+    fprintf (stderr,
+             ("warning: all timestamps had coarser"
+              " resolution than %ld ns\n"),
+             res);
+
+  return 0;
+}
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: test-gettime-res.tgz --]
[-- Type: application/x-compressed-tar, Size: 438013 bytes --]

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 847 bytes --]

On 4/18/22 22:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
>> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
>> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
> Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?

I haven't tested it on that platform, though I expect it to work since 
it relies only on current_timespec and Emacs already uses that.

I just now added some test cases to Gnulib for it; see the patch in the 
first attachment. You can try these tests in your environment by running 
'./gnulib-tool --test gettime-res' in the Gnulib source directory. Or 
you can save time by running './configure; make check' in the directory 
represented by the second attachment, which is a compressed tarball 
containing the output of './gnulib-tool --create-testdir --dir 
test-gettime-res gettime-res'.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-gettime-res-add-tests.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 4055 bytes --]

From f67c0cfb02c920bd89f490c7790f991db45a0bc5 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:13:09 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] gettime-res: add tests

* modules/gettime-res-tests, tests/test-gettime-res.c: New files.
---
 ChangeLog                 |  5 +++
 modules/gettime-res-tests | 12 ++++++
 tests/test-gettime-res.c  | 89 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 3 files changed, 106 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 modules/gettime-res-tests
 create mode 100644 tests/test-gettime-res.c

diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog
index 1e238d14e9..9bab736be4 100644
--- a/ChangeLog
+++ b/ChangeLog
@@ -1,3 +1,8 @@
+2022-04-19  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
+
+	gettime-res: add tests
+	* modules/gettime-res-tests, tests/test-gettime-res.c: New files.
+
 2022-04-16  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
 
 	verify: port to Mac OS 10.7.5
diff --git a/modules/gettime-res-tests b/modules/gettime-res-tests
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..b169f1c187
--- /dev/null
+++ b/modules/gettime-res-tests
@@ -0,0 +1,12 @@
+Files:
+tests/signature.h
+tests/test-gettime-res.c
+
+Depends-on:
+
+configure.ac:
+
+Makefile.am:
+TESTS += test-gettime-res
+check_PROGRAMS += test-gettime-res
+test_gettime_res_LDADD = $(LDADD) $(LIB_CLOCK_GETTIME)
diff --git a/tests/test-gettime-res.c b/tests/test-gettime-res.c
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..0b13f93ec6
--- /dev/null
+++ b/tests/test-gettime-res.c
@@ -0,0 +1,89 @@
+/*
+ * Copyright 2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+ * Written by Paul Eggert.
+ *
+ * This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
+ * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
+ * the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
+ * (at your option) any later version.
+ *
+ * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
+ * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
+ * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
+ * GNU General Public License for more details.
+ *
+ * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
+ * along with this program.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.  */
+
+#include <config.h>
+
+#include <timespec.h>
+
+#include <stdio.h>
+
+int
+main (void)
+{
+  long int res = gettime_res ();
+  printf ("gettime_res returned %ld ns\n", res);
+
+  if (res <= 0)
+    {
+      fprintf (stderr, "gettime_res value %ld not positive\n", res);
+      return 1;
+    }
+
+  if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ)
+    {
+      if (TIMESPEC_HZ % res != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("gettime_res value %ld ns is smaller than %d"
+                    " but does not divide it\n"),
+                   res, TIMESPEC_HZ);
+          return 1;
+        }
+    }
+  else
+    {
+      if (res % TIMESPEC_HZ != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("gettime_res value %ld ns is larger than %d"
+                    " but is not a multiple of it\n"),
+                   res, TIMESPEC_HZ);
+          return 1;
+        }
+    }
+
+  int saw_res = 0;
+
+  for (int i = 0; i < 100000; i++)
+    {
+      struct timespec t = current_timespec ();
+      if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ
+          ? t.tv_nsec % res != 0
+          : t.tv_nsec != 0 || t.tv_sec % (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) != 0)
+        {
+          fprintf (stderr,
+                   ("current_timespec returned %lld.%09ld which is not"
+                    " a multiple of the resolution, %ld ns\n"),
+                   (long long) t.tv_sec, t.tv_nsec, res);
+          return 1;
+        }
+      if (res < TIMESPEC_HZ
+          ? (t.tv_nsec / res % 2 != 0
+             || t.tv_nsec / res % 5 != 0)
+          : (t.tv_sec / (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) % 2 != 0
+             || t.tv_sec / (res / TIMESPEC_HZ) % 5 != 0))
+        saw_res = 1;
+    }
+
+  if (saw_res == 0)
+    fprintf (stderr,
+             ("warning: all timestamps had coarser"
+              " resolution than %ld ns\n"),
+             res);
+
+  return 0;
+}
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: test-gettime-res.tgz --]
[-- Type: application/x-compressed-tar, Size: 438013 bytes --]

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:22:29 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/18/22 22:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> >> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
> >> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
> >> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
> > Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?
> 
> I haven't tested it on that platform, though I expect it to work since 
> it relies only on current_timespec and Emacs already uses that.
> 
> I just now added some test cases to Gnulib for it; see the patch in the 
> first attachment. You can try these tests in your environment by running 
> './gnulib-tool --test gettime-res' in the Gnulib source directory. Or 
> you can save time by running './configure; make check' in the directory 
> represented by the second attachment, which is a compressed tarball 
> containing the output of './gnulib-tool --create-testdir --dir 
> test-gettime-res gettime-res'.

Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
it runs on MS-Windows?

AFAIK, the basic resolution of MS-Windows time stamps is 100 ns, so
using the above much larger number seems to hint at some significant
loss of information.  If the goal of this future changeset is to make
Emacs time stamps more fine-grained, it would be a shame not to have
the 100-ns resolution on MS-Windows.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:22:29 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/18/22 22:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> >> * admin/merge-gnulib (GNULIB_MODULES): Add gettime-res.
> >> * lib/gettime-res.c: New file, copied from Gnulib.
> >> * lib/gnulib.mk.in, m4/gnulib-comp.m4: Regenerate.
> > Is this known to support MS-Windows correctly?
> 
> I haven't tested it on that platform, though I expect it to work since 
> it relies only on current_timespec and Emacs already uses that.
> 
> I just now added some test cases to Gnulib for it; see the patch in the 
> first attachment. You can try these tests in your environment by running 
> './gnulib-tool --test gettime-res' in the Gnulib source directory. Or 
> you can save time by running './configure; make check' in the directory 
> represented by the second attachment, which is a compressed tarball 
> containing the output of './gnulib-tool --create-testdir --dir 
> test-gettime-res gettime-res'.

Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
it runs on MS-Windows?

AFAIK, the basic resolution of MS-Windows time stamps is 100 ns, so
using the above much larger number seems to hint at some significant
loss of information.  If the goal of this future changeset is to make
Emacs time stamps more fine-grained, it would be a shame not to have
the 100-ns resolution on MS-Windows.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 19/04/2022 09:02, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Here are the main points I see about making timestamps work better in 
> Org mode, and related patches to how Emacs handles timestamps.
> 
> * Max would like encode-time to treat a list (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY) as if 
> it were (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY nil -1 nil),

Thank you, Paul, it is exactly what I had in mind when I created this bug.

> as that would be more 
> convenient for how Org mode deals with ambiguous local timestamps. This 
> is relatively easy to add for Emacs 29+, and is done in first of the 
> attached proposed patches to Emacs master.

I would say that Org just does not care concerning ambiguous local time. 
Anyway there are other similar cases besides DST.

> * As I understand it, Max would like a function that emulate Emacs 29 
> encode-time with one argument, even if running in Emacs versions back to 
> Emacs 25. I suppose such a function would also need to implement Emacs 
> 27+ encode-time's support for subsecond resolution. E.g., 
> (org-encode-time '((44604411568 . 1000000000) 55 0 19 4 2022 - -1 t)) 
> should return (1650329744604411568 . 1000000000) even in Emacs 25 and 26.

I am just afraid of possibility of recurrent attempts to modernize 
time-related code within Emacs including Org code in a such way that can 
not be directly ported to the Org repository. Discrepancy of the code 
increases maintenance burden. The main purpose of a compatibility 
wrapper is to prevent grep-driven refactoring. Another point of the 
helper function is to allow to remove from Emacs support confusing 
old-style `encode-time' arguments with ignored DST value. In Org 
timestamps are often built from scratch, so separate argument are still 
convenient.

Org timestamps have minute precision, even seconds are trimmed. So at 
least explicitly I did not ask for subsecond timestamps. I admit however 
that they might emerge in some code paths.

Notice that nobody from Org developers & maintainers commented the patch 
demonstrating the idea of such wrapper.

> * My last topic in this email is Max's request for a feature that I'm 
> not planning to put into Emacs 29 as it'll require more thought. This 
> addresses the problem where your TZ is "Africa/Juba" and you want to 
> encode a timestamp like "2021-01-31 23:30" which is ambiguous since at 
> 24:00 that day Juba moved standard time back by an hour. Unfortunately 
> the underlying C mktime function does not allow disambiguation in the 
> rare situation where standard time moves further west of Greenwich. 
> Addressing this problem would require rewriting mktime from scratch in 
> Elisp, or using heuristics that would occasionally fail, or (my 
> favorite) extending glibc mktime to treat tm_isdst values other than 
> -1,0,1 to support disambiguating such timestamps.

I do not urge such changes. I have not checked if mktime is a part of 
POSIX and C standard. If it is so, I am not in favor of adding more 
values for the tm_isdst field since they are not related to DST.

I started this branch of discussion to convince Paul that requirement of 
9 fields is not really encourage more correct usage of `encode-time' in 
comparison to 6 values.

More convenient interface for processing of local time moments requires 
significant amount of work, maybe some prototypes. It should be 
considered separately from this bug.

I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks. It minimizes the 
chance of passing nil as "no DST" when actual value is unknown and 
developers are not ready to add a bunch of code to determine proper TZ 
offset for each case of time transition.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 19/04/2022 09:02, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Here are the main points I see about making timestamps work better in 
> Org mode, and related patches to how Emacs handles timestamps.
> 
> * Max would like encode-time to treat a list (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY) as if 
> it were (SS MM HH DD MM YYYY nil -1 nil),

Thank you, Paul, it is exactly what I had in mind when I created this bug.

> as that would be more 
> convenient for how Org mode deals with ambiguous local timestamps. This 
> is relatively easy to add for Emacs 29+, and is done in first of the 
> attached proposed patches to Emacs master.

I would say that Org just does not care concerning ambiguous local time. 
Anyway there are other similar cases besides DST.

> * As I understand it, Max would like a function that emulate Emacs 29 
> encode-time with one argument, even if running in Emacs versions back to 
> Emacs 25. I suppose such a function would also need to implement Emacs 
> 27+ encode-time's support for subsecond resolution. E.g., 
> (org-encode-time '((44604411568 . 1000000000) 55 0 19 4 2022 - -1 t)) 
> should return (1650329744604411568 . 1000000000) even in Emacs 25 and 26.

I am just afraid of possibility of recurrent attempts to modernize 
time-related code within Emacs including Org code in a such way that can 
not be directly ported to the Org repository. Discrepancy of the code 
increases maintenance burden. The main purpose of a compatibility 
wrapper is to prevent grep-driven refactoring. Another point of the 
helper function is to allow to remove from Emacs support confusing 
old-style `encode-time' arguments with ignored DST value. In Org 
timestamps are often built from scratch, so separate argument are still 
convenient.

Org timestamps have minute precision, even seconds are trimmed. So at 
least explicitly I did not ask for subsecond timestamps. I admit however 
that they might emerge in some code paths.

Notice that nobody from Org developers & maintainers commented the patch 
demonstrating the idea of such wrapper.

> * My last topic in this email is Max's request for a feature that I'm 
> not planning to put into Emacs 29 as it'll require more thought. This 
> addresses the problem where your TZ is "Africa/Juba" and you want to 
> encode a timestamp like "2021-01-31 23:30" which is ambiguous since at 
> 24:00 that day Juba moved standard time back by an hour. Unfortunately 
> the underlying C mktime function does not allow disambiguation in the 
> rare situation where standard time moves further west of Greenwich. 
> Addressing this problem would require rewriting mktime from scratch in 
> Elisp, or using heuristics that would occasionally fail, or (my 
> favorite) extending glibc mktime to treat tm_isdst values other than 
> -1,0,1 to support disambiguating such timestamps.

I do not urge such changes. I have not checked if mktime is a part of 
POSIX and C standard. If it is so, I am not in favor of adding more 
values for the tm_isdst field since they are not related to DST.

I started this branch of discussion to convince Paul that requirement of 
9 fields is not really encourage more correct usage of `encode-time' in 
comparison to 6 values.

More convenient interface for processing of local time moments requires 
significant amount of work, maybe some prototypes. It should be 
considered separately from this bug.

I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks. It minimizes the 
chance of passing nil as "no DST" when actual value is unknown and 
developers are not ready to add a bunch of code to determine proper TZ 
offset for each case of time transition.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 17/04/2022 08:58, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Thanks, I installed that and then installed the attached, which merges
> that with some documentation improvements that I drafted based on this
> thread.

Thank you for further editing of docs. Please, fix a typo.

> diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
> index 66689f43a9..8366689640 100644
> --- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
> +++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
> 
> @@ -1687,14 +1660,18 @@ Time Conversion
>   than six arguments the @emph{last} argument is used as @var{zone} and
>   any other extra arguments are ignored, so that @code{(apply
>   #'encode-time (decode-time ...))} works.  In this obsolescent
> -convention, @var{zone} defaults to the current time zone rule
> -(@pxref{Time Zone Rules}), and @var{dst} is treated as if it was
> -@minus{}1.
> +convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
> +current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
> +When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
> +list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that

                                             ^^^
A typo: double "a".

> +is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
> 
> +@lisp
> +;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
> +;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
> +(let ((time (decode-time)))
> +  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
> +        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
> +  time)
> +@end lisp

> +@noindent
> +Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
> +time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
> +or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
> +February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
> +not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
> +can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
> +at July 1 when adding years.

If I get your idea correctly then "January, 31" + "1 month" should be 
more impressive as impossible date. Year 2096 is too far in future. I am 
unsure concerning expectation. Overflow arithmetic is described above 
and e.g. JavaScript normalizes Date object in a similar fashion. The 
special point is that elisp decoded time requires explicit normalization 
however and 2100 is a good example that updating of any field may 
"break" the date.

> Alternatively, you can use the
> +@file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.

A remark loosely related to your patch. Earlier you mentioned missed 
midnight due to time transition and suggested to use calendrical 
functions in Org. I can not figure out which elisp function can help to 
determine wall time for Aug 1 start of day in Cairo:

Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 21:59:59 2014 UT = Thu Jul 31 23:59:59 2014 EET 
isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 22:00:00 2014 UT = Fri Aug  1 01:00:00 2014 
EEST isdst=1 gmtoff=10800

input: 2014-08-01 Africa/Cairo
(timezone may be implicit as the system one)
expected output: 01:00:00

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 17/04/2022 08:58, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Thanks, I installed that and then installed the attached, which merges
> that with some documentation improvements that I drafted based on this
> thread.

Thank you for further editing of docs. Please, fix a typo.

> diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
> index 66689f43a9..8366689640 100644
> --- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
> +++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
> 
> @@ -1687,14 +1660,18 @@ Time Conversion
>   than six arguments the @emph{last} argument is used as @var{zone} and
>   any other extra arguments are ignored, so that @code{(apply
>   #'encode-time (decode-time ...))} works.  In this obsolescent
> -convention, @var{zone} defaults to the current time zone rule
> -(@pxref{Time Zone Rules}), and @var{dst} is treated as if it was
> -@minus{}1.
> +convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
> +current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
> +When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
> +list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that

                                             ^^^
A typo: double "a".

> +is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
> 
> +@lisp
> +;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
> +;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
> +(let ((time (decode-time)))
> +  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
> +        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
> +  time)
> +@end lisp

> +@noindent
> +Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
> +time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
> +or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
> +February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
> +not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
> +can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
> +at July 1 when adding years.

If I get your idea correctly then "January, 31" + "1 month" should be 
more impressive as impossible date. Year 2096 is too far in future. I am 
unsure concerning expectation. Overflow arithmetic is described above 
and e.g. JavaScript normalizes Date object in a similar fashion. The 
special point is that elisp decoded time requires explicit normalization 
however and 2100 is a good example that updating of any field may 
"break" the date.

> Alternatively, you can use the
> +@file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.

A remark loosely related to your patch. Earlier you mentioned missed 
midnight due to time transition and suggested to use calendrical 
functions in Org. I can not figure out which elisp function can help to 
determine wall time for Aug 1 start of day in Cairo:

Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 21:59:59 2014 UT = Thu Jul 31 23:59:59 2014 EET 
isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 22:00:00 2014 UT = Fri Aug  1 01:00:00 2014 
EEST isdst=1 gmtoff=10800

input: 2014-08-01 Africa/Cairo
(timezone may be implicit as the system one)
expected output: 01:00:00

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1125 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 00:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:22:29 -0700

> Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
> ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
> time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
> this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
> it runs on MS-Windows?

It comes from current_timespec samples taken by gettime_res. Evidently 
something is going wrong, either in gettime_res or in current_timespec.

I stared at the code a bit and see one possible problem, which I fixed 
by installing the attached patch into Gnulib. I then generated a new 
test-gettime-res.tgz compressed tarball (also attached); could you give 
it a try?

This tarball is the result of running ./gnulib-tool as before, except I 
added an extra print statement executed if you pass an extra argument to 
that test program. So if you run the test and it's still outputting an 
outlandish value for the resolution, please run the command:

gltests/test-gettime-res x

and let's take a look at its (long) debugging output.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-gettime-res-more-robust-sampling.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2501 bytes --]

From 6dc5c1be733cbfbcecaa44ceab070ea4724a1ba0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:42:51 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] gettime-res: more-robust sampling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

* lib/gettime-res.c (gettime_res): If adjacent timestamps are
identical search for a differing timestamp.  Also, stop collecting
samples thereafter since they surely won’t help.
---
 ChangeLog         |  7 +++++++
 lib/gettime-res.c | 19 +++++++++++++++++--
 2 files changed, 24 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog
index fee51331c8..4b39a6a443 100644
--- a/ChangeLog
+++ b/ChangeLog
@@ -1,3 +1,10 @@
+2022-04-20  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
+
+	gettime-res: more-robust sampling
+	* lib/gettime-res.c (gettime_res): If adjacent timestamps are
+	identical search for a differing timestamp.  Also, stop collecting
+	samples thereafter since they surely won’t help.
+
 2022-04-19  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
 
 	Port _GL_HAS_C_ATTRIBUTE to pedantic gcc -std=c99
diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
index 611f83ad27..bb4d0b191d 100644
--- a/lib/gettime-res.c
+++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
@@ -53,6 +53,8 @@ gettime_res (void)
 
   long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
   long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
+  struct timespec earlier;
+  earlier.tv_nsec = -1;
 
   /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
      too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
@@ -61,9 +63,22 @@ gettime_res (void)
      resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
      trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
      bounds on resolution.  */
-  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
+  int nsamples = 32;
+  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < nsamples; i++)
     {
-      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
+      /* If successive timestamps disagree the clock resolution must
+         be small, so exit the inner loop to check this sample.
+         Otherwise, arrange for the outer loop to exit but continue
+         the inner-loop search for a differing timestamp sample.  */
+      struct timespec now;
+      for (;; i = nsamples)
+        {
+          now = current_timespec ();
+          if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
+            break;
+        }
+      earlier = now;
+
       r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
     }
 
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: test-gettime-res.tgz --]
[-- Type: application/x-compressed-tar, Size: 438972 bytes --]

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1125 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 00:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:22:29 -0700

> Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
> ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
> time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
> this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
> it runs on MS-Windows?

It comes from current_timespec samples taken by gettime_res. Evidently 
something is going wrong, either in gettime_res or in current_timespec.

I stared at the code a bit and see one possible problem, which I fixed 
by installing the attached patch into Gnulib. I then generated a new 
test-gettime-res.tgz compressed tarball (also attached); could you give 
it a try?

This tarball is the result of running ./gnulib-tool as before, except I 
added an extra print statement executed if you pass an extra argument to 
that test program. So if you run the test and it's still outputting an 
outlandish value for the resolution, please run the command:

gltests/test-gettime-res x

and let's take a look at its (long) debugging output.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-gettime-res-more-robust-sampling.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2501 bytes --]

From 6dc5c1be733cbfbcecaa44ceab070ea4724a1ba0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:42:51 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] gettime-res: more-robust sampling
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

* lib/gettime-res.c (gettime_res): If adjacent timestamps are
identical search for a differing timestamp.  Also, stop collecting
samples thereafter since they surely won’t help.
---
 ChangeLog         |  7 +++++++
 lib/gettime-res.c | 19 +++++++++++++++++--
 2 files changed, 24 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog
index fee51331c8..4b39a6a443 100644
--- a/ChangeLog
+++ b/ChangeLog
@@ -1,3 +1,10 @@
+2022-04-20  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
+
+	gettime-res: more-robust sampling
+	* lib/gettime-res.c (gettime_res): If adjacent timestamps are
+	identical search for a differing timestamp.  Also, stop collecting
+	samples thereafter since they surely won’t help.
+
 2022-04-19  Paul Eggert  <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
 
 	Port _GL_HAS_C_ATTRIBUTE to pedantic gcc -std=c99
diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
index 611f83ad27..bb4d0b191d 100644
--- a/lib/gettime-res.c
+++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
@@ -53,6 +53,8 @@ gettime_res (void)
 
   long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
   long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
+  struct timespec earlier;
+  earlier.tv_nsec = -1;
 
   /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
      too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
@@ -61,9 +63,22 @@ gettime_res (void)
      resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
      trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
      bounds on resolution.  */
-  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
+  int nsamples = 32;
+  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < nsamples; i++)
     {
-      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
+      /* If successive timestamps disagree the clock resolution must
+         be small, so exit the inner loop to check this sample.
+         Otherwise, arrange for the outer loop to exit but continue
+         the inner-loop search for a differing timestamp sample.  */
+      struct timespec now;
+      for (;; i = nsamples)
+        {
+          now = current_timespec ();
+          if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
+            break;
+        }
+      earlier = now;
+
       r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
     }
 
-- 
2.35.1


[-- Attachment #3: test-gettime-res.tgz --]
[-- Type: application/x-compressed-tar, Size: 438972 bytes --]

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 08:07, Max Nikulin wrote:

> I have not checked if mktime is a part of 
> POSIX and C standard.
mktime is part of both the C standard and POSIX. POSIX extends the C 
standard by saying that time_t is an integer type (the C standard allows 
time_t to be a floating-point type) and that time_t counts non-leap 
seconds since the Epoch (the C standard doesn't say what time_t counts, 
thought it implies that it counts seconds from some origin, which may 
not be 1970).
> I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
> the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks.

Yes, that's the direction we're headed.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 08:07, Max Nikulin wrote:

> I have not checked if mktime is a part of 
> POSIX and C standard.
mktime is part of both the C standard and POSIX. POSIX extends the C 
standard by saying that time_t is an integer type (the C standard allows 
time_t to be a floating-point type) and that time_t counts non-leap 
seconds since the Epoch (the C standard doesn't say what time_t counts, 
thought it implies that it counts seconds from some origin, which may 
not be 1970).
> I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
> the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks.

Yes, that's the direction we're headed.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:19:29 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Gnulib bugs <bug-gnulib@gnu.org>
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
> > ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
> > time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
> > this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
> > it runs on MS-Windows?
> 
> It comes from current_timespec samples taken by gettime_res. Evidently 
> something is going wrong, either in gettime_res or in current_timespec.
> 
> I stared at the code a bit and see one possible problem, which I fixed 
> by installing the attached patch into Gnulib. I then generated a new 
> test-gettime-res.tgz compressed tarball (also attached); could you give 
> it a try?
> 
> This tarball is the result of running ./gnulib-tool as before, except I 
> added an extra print statement executed if you pass an extra argument to 
> that test program. So if you run the test and it's still outputting an 
> outlandish value for the resolution, please run the command:
> 
> gltests/test-gettime-res x
> 
> and let's take a look at its (long) debugging output.

I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?

Thanks.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:19:29 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Gnulib bugs <bug-gnulib@gnu.org>
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > Thanks, the test-gettime-res test says "gettime_res returned 625000
> > ns", which is a strange number: it doesn't fit any MS-Windows system
> > time resolution figure I know about.  Do you happen to know what does
> > this number represent, and why it is the result of gettime-res.c when
> > it runs on MS-Windows?
> 
> It comes from current_timespec samples taken by gettime_res. Evidently 
> something is going wrong, either in gettime_res or in current_timespec.
> 
> I stared at the code a bit and see one possible problem, which I fixed 
> by installing the attached patch into Gnulib. I then generated a new 
> test-gettime-res.tgz compressed tarball (also attached); could you give 
> it a try?
> 
> This tarball is the result of running ./gnulib-tool as before, except I 
> added an extra print statement executed if you pass an extra argument to 
> that test program. So if you run the test and it's still outputting an 
> outlandish value for the resolution, please run the command:
> 
> gltests/test-gettime-res x
> 
> and let's take a look at its (long) debugging output.

I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?

Thanks.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 522 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 11:41, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
> and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
> you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?

That's odd, as I get the different result (i.e., with debugging info) 
when I use that tarball, a copy of which I got off the email archive (so 
I know I sent it :-). Please see the attached shell transcript for 
exactly how I got the different result, starting from the email archive.

[-- Attachment #2: test-gettime-res-shell-transcript.txt.gz --]
[-- Type: application/gzip, Size: 412620 bytes --]

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 522 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 11:41, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
> and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
> you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?

That's odd, as I get the different result (i.e., with debugging info) 
when I use that tarball, a copy of which I got off the email archive (so 
I know I sent it :-). Please see the attached shell transcript for 
exactly how I got the different result, starting from the email archive.

[-- Attachment #2: test-gettime-res-shell-transcript.txt.gz --]
[-- Type: application/gzip, Size: 412620 bytes --]

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:01:27 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
> > and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
> > you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?
> 
> That's odd, as I get the different result (i.e., with debugging info) 
> when I use that tarball, a copy of which I got off the email archive (so 
> I know I sent it :-). Please see the attached shell transcript for 
> exactly how I got the different result, starting from the email archive.

Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
do you want to know or see from there?

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:01:27 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > I get the same result, and moreover I see no differences between this
> > and the previous tarball, and no printouts in test-gettime-res.c.  Did
> > you perhaps attach the wrong tarball this time?
> 
> That's odd, as I get the different result (i.e., with debugging info) 
> when I use that tarball, a copy of which I got off the email archive (so 
> I know I sent it :-). Please see the attached shell transcript for 
> exactly how I got the different result, starting from the email archive.

Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
do you want to know or see from there?

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1934 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 09:56, Max Nikulin wrote:

> A typo: double "a".

Thanks, fixed in the attached which I installed in master.


> If I get your idea correctly then "January, 31" + "1 month" should be 
> more impressive as impossible date.

Thanks, good idea; also in the attached patch.


> I can not figure out which elisp function can help to 
> determine wall time for Aug 1 start of day in Cairo:
> 
> Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 21:59:59 2014 UT = Thu Jul 31 23:59:59 2014 EET 
> isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
> Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 22:00:00 2014 UT = Fri Aug  1 01:00:00 2014 
> EEST isdst=1 gmtoff=10800
> 
> input: 2014-08-01 Africa/Cairo
> (timezone may be implicit as the system one)
> expected output: 01:00:00

Given mktime's limitations there's no trivial way to do this for 
arbitrary timestamps, since 00:00 doesn't exist in Cairo that day. 
Worse, in some locations near the International Date Line entire days do 
not exist, because at 00:00 they advanced the clocks forward 24 hours in 
order to move the date line.

It sounds like you're asking for a function that, given a date, yields 
the first broken-down timestamp on or after 00:00 of that date. For 
something like that, I'd use encode-time on 00:00 of that date to get a 
timestamp T, and then use time-add and decode-time to decode T-86400 
seconds, T, and T+86400 seconds, and if the decoded times all look fine 
then return (decode-time T). If not (i.e., their UTC offsets differ, or 
T's decoded time is not 00:00 on the correct date) I'd use binary search 
to find discontinuities between T-86400 and T+86400 and look next to 
those discontinuities to find timestamps closer to what you want.

Of course this is not ideal - but it's similar to what many mktime 
implementations do internally, and it's also similar to what Emacs's 
cal-dst already does (maybe you can look there for ideas), so you'd be 
in good company.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-More-encode-time-pitfall-doc-fixes.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2651 bytes --]

From f98c3f4426fecf794f47f27aebe1f3b854fb1bfd Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:03:19 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] More encode-time pitfall doc fixes

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time Conversion): Improve discussion of
encode-time pitfalls based on comments by Max Nikulin (Bug#54764#63).
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 22 ++++++++++++++--------
 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index cabae08970..4138dab09f 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1670,7 +1670,7 @@ Time Conversion
 convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
 current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
 When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
-list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that
+list equivalent contains 9 elements with a @code{dst} element that
 is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
 
 Year numbers less than 100 are not treated specially.  If you want them
@@ -1695,22 +1695,28 @@ Time Conversion
 For example:
 
 @lisp
-;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
+;; Try to compute the time one month from now.
 ;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
 (let ((time (decode-time)))
-  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
-        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
+  (setf (decoded-time-month time)
+        (+ (decoded-time-month time) 1))
   time)
 @end lisp
 
 @noindent
 Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
-time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
+time is invalid due to month length differences,
+daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
 or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
-February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
-not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
+January 30 this code yields a nonexistent date February 30,
+which @code{encode-time} would adjust to early March.
+Similarly, adding four years to February 29, 2096 would yield the
+nonexistent date February 29, 2100; and adding one hour to 01:30 on
+March 13, 2022 in New York would yield a timestamp 02:30 that does not
+exist because clocks sprang forward from 02:00 to 03:00 that day.
+To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
 can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
-at July 1 when adding years.  Alternatively, you can use the
+at the 15th of the month when adding months.  Alternatively, you can use the
 @file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.
 @end defun
 
-- 
2.32.0

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1934 bytes --]

On 4/20/22 09:56, Max Nikulin wrote:

> A typo: double "a".

Thanks, fixed in the attached which I installed in master.


> If I get your idea correctly then "January, 31" + "1 month" should be 
> more impressive as impossible date.

Thanks, good idea; also in the attached patch.


> I can not figure out which elisp function can help to 
> determine wall time for Aug 1 start of day in Cairo:
> 
> Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 21:59:59 2014 UT = Thu Jul 31 23:59:59 2014 EET 
> isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
> Africa/Cairo  Thu Jul 31 22:00:00 2014 UT = Fri Aug  1 01:00:00 2014 
> EEST isdst=1 gmtoff=10800
> 
> input: 2014-08-01 Africa/Cairo
> (timezone may be implicit as the system one)
> expected output: 01:00:00

Given mktime's limitations there's no trivial way to do this for 
arbitrary timestamps, since 00:00 doesn't exist in Cairo that day. 
Worse, in some locations near the International Date Line entire days do 
not exist, because at 00:00 they advanced the clocks forward 24 hours in 
order to move the date line.

It sounds like you're asking for a function that, given a date, yields 
the first broken-down timestamp on or after 00:00 of that date. For 
something like that, I'd use encode-time on 00:00 of that date to get a 
timestamp T, and then use time-add and decode-time to decode T-86400 
seconds, T, and T+86400 seconds, and if the decoded times all look fine 
then return (decode-time T). If not (i.e., their UTC offsets differ, or 
T's decoded time is not 00:00 on the correct date) I'd use binary search 
to find discontinuities between T-86400 and T+86400 and look next to 
those discontinuities to find timestamps closer to what you want.

Of course this is not ideal - but it's similar to what many mktime 
implementations do internally, and it's also similar to what Emacs's 
cal-dst already does (maybe you can look there for ideas), so you'd be 
in good company.

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-More-encode-time-pitfall-doc-fixes.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2651 bytes --]

From f98c3f4426fecf794f47f27aebe1f3b854fb1bfd Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:03:19 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] More encode-time pitfall doc fixes

* doc/lispref/os.texi (Time Conversion): Improve discussion of
encode-time pitfalls based on comments by Max Nikulin (Bug#54764#63).
---
 doc/lispref/os.texi | 22 ++++++++++++++--------
 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispref/os.texi b/doc/lispref/os.texi
index cabae08970..4138dab09f 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/os.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/os.texi
@@ -1670,7 +1670,7 @@ Time Conversion
 convention, @var{dst} is @minus{}1 and @var{zone} defaults to the
 current time zone rule (@pxref{Time Zone Rules}).
 When modernizing an obsolescent caller, ensure that the more-modern
-list equivalent contains 9 elements with a a @code{dst} element that
+list equivalent contains 9 elements with a @code{dst} element that
 is @minus{}1, not @code{nil}.
 
 Year numbers less than 100 are not treated specially.  If you want them
@@ -1695,22 +1695,28 @@ Time Conversion
 For example:
 
 @lisp
-;; Try to compute the time four years from now.
+;; Try to compute the time one month from now.
 ;; Watch out; this might not work as expected.
 (let ((time (decode-time)))
-  (setf (decoded-time-year time)
-        (+ (decoded-time-year time) 4))
+  (setf (decoded-time-month time)
+        (+ (decoded-time-month time) 1))
   time)
 @end lisp
 
 @noindent
 Unfortunately, this code might not work as expected if the resulting
-time is invalid due to daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
+time is invalid due to month length differences,
+daylight saving transitions, time zone changes,
 or missing leap days or leap seconds.  For example, if executed on
-February 29, 2096 this code yields a nonexistent date because 2100 is
-not a leap year.  To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
+January 30 this code yields a nonexistent date February 30,
+which @code{encode-time} would adjust to early March.
+Similarly, adding four years to February 29, 2096 would yield the
+nonexistent date February 29, 2100; and adding one hour to 01:30 on
+March 13, 2022 in New York would yield a timestamp 02:30 that does not
+exist because clocks sprang forward from 02:00 to 03:00 that day.
+To avoid some (though not all) of the problem, you
 can base calculations on the middle of the affected unit, e.g., start
-at July 1 when adding years.  Alternatively, you can use the
+at the 15th of the month when adding months.  Alternatively, you can use the
 @file{calendar} and @file{time-date} libraries.
 @end defun
 
-- 
2.32.0

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 12:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
> do you want to know or see from there?

I want to see what the current_timespec's resolution is, which we should 
be able to tell from the debugging output. For example, on my Solaris 10 
sparc platform the command 'gltests/test-gettime-res x' outputs:

gettime_res returned 200 ns
time = 1650482432.256445600
time = 1650482432.256460600
time = 1650482432.256464400
time = 1650482432.256468200
time = 1650482432.256471400
time = 1650482432.256474600
time = 1650482432.256478000
time = 1650482432.256481200
time = 1650482432.256484800
...

and these timestamps say that with very high probability 
current_timespec's clock resolution is indeed 200 ns.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 12:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
> do you want to know or see from there?

I want to see what the current_timespec's resolution is, which we should 
be able to tell from the debugging output. For example, on my Solaris 10 
sparc platform the command 'gltests/test-gettime-res x' outputs:

gettime_res returned 200 ns
time = 1650482432.256445600
time = 1650482432.256460600
time = 1650482432.256464400
time = 1650482432.256468200
time = 1650482432.256471400
time = 1650482432.256474600
time = 1650482432.256478000
time = 1650482432.256481200
time = 1650482432.256484800
...

and these timestamps say that with very high probability 
current_timespec's clock resolution is indeed 200 ns.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:23:43 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/20/22 12:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
> > do you want to know or see from there?
> 
> I want to see what the current_timespec's resolution is, which we should 
> be able to tell from the debugging output. For example, on my Solaris 10 
> sparc platform the command 'gltests/test-gettime-res x' outputs:
> 
> gettime_res returned 200 ns
> time = 1650482432.256445600
> time = 1650482432.256460600
> time = 1650482432.256464400
> time = 1650482432.256468200
> time = 1650482432.256471400
> time = 1650482432.256474600
> time = 1650482432.256478000
> time = 1650482432.256481200
> time = 1650482432.256484800
> ...
> 
> and these timestamps say that with very high probability 
> current_timespec's clock resolution is indeed 200 ns.

I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.  Which is expected
on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
to do with the system's time resolution?  And how is the 0.625 msec
number reported by the program obtained from those samples?

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:23:43 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/20/22 12:14, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Sorry, my bad.  The result is the same, but I do get printouts.  What
> > do you want to know or see from there?
> 
> I want to see what the current_timespec's resolution is, which we should 
> be able to tell from the debugging output. For example, on my Solaris 10 
> sparc platform the command 'gltests/test-gettime-res x' outputs:
> 
> gettime_res returned 200 ns
> time = 1650482432.256445600
> time = 1650482432.256460600
> time = 1650482432.256464400
> time = 1650482432.256468200
> time = 1650482432.256471400
> time = 1650482432.256474600
> time = 1650482432.256478000
> time = 1650482432.256481200
> time = 1650482432.256484800
> ...
> 
> and these timestamps say that with very high probability 
> current_timespec's clock resolution is indeed 200 ns.

I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.  Which is expected
on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
to do with the system's time resolution?  And how is the 0.625 msec
number reported by the program obtained from those samples?

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 12:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.

Could you give the first part of the output? I would like to see what 
the the samples are jumping from and to, and how often they jump.

Something like the following is what I'd hope to see from the first 
lines of the output of 'gllib/test-gettime-res x'. What are you seeing?

gettime_res returned 15625000 ns
time = 1650496481.515625000
time = 1650496481.531250000
time = 1650496481.546875000
time = 1650496481.562500000
time = 1650496481.578125000
time = 1650496481.593750000
time = 1650496481.609375000
time = 1650496481.625000000
time = 1650496481.640625000
time = 1650496481.656250000

>  Which is expected
> on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
> to do with the system's time resolution?

The resolution of Elisp's (time-convert nil t) is determined by the 
smallest nonzero gap between timestamps that are returned by C's 
current_timespec. This is the system time resolution as far as Elisp is 
concerned, because Elisp cannot return the current time at a finer 
resolution than what current_timespec gives it. This resolution is not 
necessarily the same as the time resolution of the motherboard clock, OS 
high-res timestamp, file timestamps, etc.

> And how is the 0.625 msec
> number reported by the program obtained from those samples?

Use the largest resolution R ns consistent with the samples, such that 
1000000000 is an integer multiple of R so that timestamp computations 
are exact.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/20/22 12:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.

Could you give the first part of the output? I would like to see what 
the the samples are jumping from and to, and how often they jump.

Something like the following is what I'd hope to see from the first 
lines of the output of 'gllib/test-gettime-res x'. What are you seeing?

gettime_res returned 15625000 ns
time = 1650496481.515625000
time = 1650496481.531250000
time = 1650496481.546875000
time = 1650496481.562500000
time = 1650496481.578125000
time = 1650496481.593750000
time = 1650496481.609375000
time = 1650496481.625000000
time = 1650496481.640625000
time = 1650496481.656250000

>  Which is expected
> on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
> to do with the system's time resolution?

The resolution of Elisp's (time-convert nil t) is determined by the 
smallest nonzero gap between timestamps that are returned by C's 
current_timespec. This is the system time resolution as far as Elisp is 
concerned, because Elisp cannot return the current time at a finer 
resolution than what current_timespec gives it. This resolution is not 
necessarily the same as the time resolution of the motherboard clock, OS 
high-res timestamp, file timestamps, etc.

> And how is the 0.625 msec
> number reported by the program obtained from those samples?

Use the largest resolution R ns consistent with the samples, such that 
1000000000 is an integer multiple of R so that timestamp computations 
are exact.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:11:34 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/20/22 12:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.
> 
> Could you give the first part of the output? I would like to see what 
> the the samples are jumping from and to, and how often they jump.

That "first part", as I understand what you wanted, would be too long
and tedious to examine, as the value changes once every 5500 lines.
So I've modified the test program to print the time only when it
changes, and here's the output:

  gettime_res returned 625000 ns
  time = 1650522863.038750000
  time = 1650522863.054375000
  time = 1650522863.070000000
  time = 1650522863.085625000
  time = 1650522863.101250000
  time = 1650522863.116875000
  time = 1650522863.132500000
  time = 1650522863.148125000
  time = 1650522863.163750000
  time = 1650522863.179375000
  time = 1650522863.195000000
  time = 1650522863.210625000
  time = 1650522863.226250000
  time = 1650522863.241875000
  time = 1650522863.257500000
  time = 1650522863.273125000
  time = 1650522863.288750000
  time = 1650522863.304375000
  time = 1650522863.320000000
  time = 1650522863.335625000
  time = 1650522863.351250000
  time = 1650522863.366875000
  time = 1650522863.382500000
  time = 1650522863.398125000
  time = 1650522863.413750000

> >  Which is expected
> > on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
> > to do with the system's time resolution?
> 
> The resolution of Elisp's (time-convert nil t) is determined by the 
> smallest nonzero gap between timestamps that are returned by C's 
> current_timespec. This is the system time resolution as far as Elisp is 
> concerned, because Elisp cannot return the current time at a finer 
> resolution than what current_timespec gives it. This resolution is not 
> necessarily the same as the time resolution of the motherboard clock, OS 
> high-res timestamp, file timestamps, etc.

Then I think I don't understand the purpose of this measurement, as
applied to Emacs Lisp.  For example, you say that this is unrelated to
file timestamps, but don't we use time values for file timestamps?
And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
about the real resolution of the system time values.

More generally, if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?  And
if so, wouldn't that mean Emacs Lisp programs will be inherently not
portable?

IOW, how do you intend to incorporate this "time resolution" into
Emacs Lisp, and what will be affected by that value?

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:11:34 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/20/22 12:30, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.
> 
> Could you give the first part of the output? I would like to see what 
> the the samples are jumping from and to, and how often they jump.

That "first part", as I understand what you wanted, would be too long
and tedious to examine, as the value changes once every 5500 lines.
So I've modified the test program to print the time only when it
changes, and here's the output:

  gettime_res returned 625000 ns
  time = 1650522863.038750000
  time = 1650522863.054375000
  time = 1650522863.070000000
  time = 1650522863.085625000
  time = 1650522863.101250000
  time = 1650522863.116875000
  time = 1650522863.132500000
  time = 1650522863.148125000
  time = 1650522863.163750000
  time = 1650522863.179375000
  time = 1650522863.195000000
  time = 1650522863.210625000
  time = 1650522863.226250000
  time = 1650522863.241875000
  time = 1650522863.257500000
  time = 1650522863.273125000
  time = 1650522863.288750000
  time = 1650522863.304375000
  time = 1650522863.320000000
  time = 1650522863.335625000
  time = 1650522863.351250000
  time = 1650522863.366875000
  time = 1650522863.382500000
  time = 1650522863.398125000
  time = 1650522863.413750000

> >  Which is expected
> > on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick, but what does that have
> > to do with the system's time resolution?
> 
> The resolution of Elisp's (time-convert nil t) is determined by the 
> smallest nonzero gap between timestamps that are returned by C's 
> current_timespec. This is the system time resolution as far as Elisp is 
> concerned, because Elisp cannot return the current time at a finer 
> resolution than what current_timespec gives it. This resolution is not 
> necessarily the same as the time resolution of the motherboard clock, OS 
> high-res timestamp, file timestamps, etc.

Then I think I don't understand the purpose of this measurement, as
applied to Emacs Lisp.  For example, you say that this is unrelated to
file timestamps, but don't we use time values for file timestamps?
And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
about the real resolution of the system time values.

More generally, if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?  And
if so, wouldn't that mean Emacs Lisp programs will be inherently not
portable?

IOW, how do you intend to incorporate this "time resolution" into
Emacs Lisp, and what will be affected by that value?

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

Eli Zaretskii, Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:30:21
> I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.  Which is expected
> on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick,

Why do you expect such value? Clock resolution generally has a little 
common with timers. Does it mean some protection against timing attacks?

I have no experience with windows-specific code, but quick search gives 
GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime that should provide timestamps with fine 
granularity
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/sysinfoapi/nf-sysinfoapi-getsystemtimepreciseasfiletime

On 21/04/2022 13:44, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
>    gettime_res returned 625000 ns
>    time = 1650522863.038750000
>    time = 1650522863.054375000
> 
> Then I think I don't understand the purpose of this measurement, as
> applied to Emacs Lisp.  For example, you say that this is unrelated to
> file timestamps, but don't we use time values for file timestamps?

It might mean that Emacs already have some problems unrelated to the 
suggested patches.

> And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
> Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
> about the real resolution of the system time values.
> 
> More generally, if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
> is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
> that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?  And
> if so, wouldn't that mean Emacs Lisp programs will be inherently not
> portable?
> 
> IOW, how do you intend to incorporate this "time resolution" into
> Emacs Lisp, and what will be affected by that value?

If I got the idea of the patches correctly, it should be a different low 
level representation for the same numbers. However I do not like too 
coarse clock resolution reported by the current implementation.

P.S. I have removed emacs-orgmode list since this part of discussion is 
unrelated to Org.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:30:21 +0700
> Cc: bug-gnulib@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:30:21
> > I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.  Which is expected
> > on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick,
> 
> Why do you expect such value?

It is a well-known fact that the system timer tick happens 64 times a
second on MS-Windows.

> Clock resolution generally has a little common with timers.

I agree, but that's something you should tell/ask Paul, not myself.

> I have no experience with windows-specific code, but quick search gives 
> GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime that should provide timestamps with fine 
> granularity
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/sysinfoapi/nf-sysinfoapi-getsystemtimepreciseasfiletime

That API exists only since Windows 8.  More importantly, the Gnulib
implementation of current_timespec doesn't use it.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 17/04/2022 02:23, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/15/22 10:23, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely time 
>> zone identifier should have precedence.
> 
> Although that would make sense for some applications it's not a good 
> idea in general. For example, if you're scheduling a Zoom meeting you 
> should save both, because other meeting participants may interpret 
> strings like "Pacific/Apia" differently.

I would say that in such cases there is a primary time zone for such 
event and secondary time zones of other participants. Time transitions 
in the primary time zone (unless it is UTC that is the reference) affect 
participants from all other time zones. If some secondary time zone is 
changed then it affects only wall time in this particular time zone. So 
primary timezone and offsets in all time zones should be stored for user 
convenience and to figure out which notification should be sent after 
introducing new rules for some time zones.

>> Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
>> abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
>> may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
>> shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
>> abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
>> saving time.
> 
> Yes, timezone names like "Europe/Lisbon" are ambiguous during fallback 
> transitions, or if the meaning of "Europe/Lisbon" changes. This is why 
> one should also save UT offsets when generating localtime timestamps.

Before/after time transition around the date may be more meaningful for 
people. Local tradition may use other reference than Greenwich.

> Around five years ago I changed TZDB to numeric use time zone 
> abbreviations like "+04" instead of my inventions like "GET", because I 
> wanted TZDB to follow existing practice, not invent it. A nice side 
> effect is that numeric abbreviations are unambiguous. (Besides, even _I_ 
> couldn't remember what "GET" meant. :-)

Numerical abbreviation broke parsers in stable linux distribution, e.g. 
a patch for Qt required in addition to tzdata update. I do not remember 
details, but removed old-style abbreviations caused some problems as 
well. I may be wrong concerning usage of such abbreviation in the 
postgres parser and earlier generated text timestamps. On the other hand 
an abbreviation for a timezone with evolved offset significantly 
contributes to uncertainties and does not help to resolve ambiguity 
around time shift.

>> And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.
> 
> That info is meant only for users; I wouldn't rely on it for 
> calculations because those abbreviations are ambiguous. It could well 
> be, for example that the meaning of "PST" in the United States will 
> change in the near future.

I agree that abbreviations are ambiguous when considered globally. When 
constrained to particular location (time zone) and moment of time, they 
may provide additional bit of information that is more convenient for 
users and enough to resolve ambiguity. It is not a general rule, 
sometimes uncertainty remains even when abbreviation is known.

>> I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
>> period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
>> Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand this point. One can easily recalculate the UT 
> offset in Emacs Lisp by generating the desired timestamp and calling 
> decode-time on it. You surely are talking about something else, but I 
> don't know what it is.

Let's assume Europe/Lisbon timezone. `decode-time' for today gives just 
+0100. It tells nothing if I need to process some thousands of 
timestamps for yesterday and past week. If some function returns "+0100 
for given timestamp and the same offset is valid for Europe/Lisbon since 
Sun Mar 27 01:00:00 2022 UT = Sun Mar 27 02:00:00 2022 WEST till Sun Oct 
30 00:59:59 2022 UT = Sun Oct 30 01:59:59 2022 WEST" then I can process 
whole bunch without any worry concerning non-existing or ambiguous time, 
extra or lost hour in time intervals. mktime should have all this 
information during intermediate calculations but it does not expose it 
to callers.

Interface of mktime is suitable for conversion of isolated timestamps. 
For bunch of related data there is enough room for optimizing.

>> You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
>> opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
>> setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
>> then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
>> parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
>> well).
> 
> That's not possible in general, since the two abbreviations can be the 
> same. Traditionally in Australia, for example, "CST" meant both "Central 
> Standard Time" and "Central Summer Time", and there are probably still 
> apps that use the equivalent of TZ="CST-9:30CST,M10.1.0,M4.1.0/3" which 
> does precisely that.

They should still have some way to disambiguate whether local time 
precedes transition or follows it in various schedules: night trains, 
buses, flights. However it might be just "*" and a footnote.

> It's hardly ever a good idea to rely on time zone abbreviations as 
> they're too often ambiguous. It's much better to use UT offsets. When 
> generating a localtime timestamp, one should always output its UT offset 
> (in addition to any other advisory info you might want to output). And 
> if you do that, many of the abovementioned problems are easily solved.

There is no general rule suitable for all cases. In some cases it is 
more convenient to store timestamps as seconds since epoch. However 
there are cases when it is fragile: dates without time (e.g. birth date 
in documents, not for astrology) or future events. Actually input data 
should be clearly marked to distinguish from guessed or derived values. 
If wall time is what exactly known then UTC offset is secondary data. 
When presented to users, UTC offset may sometimes add unnecessary noise 
with no real value. I do not dispute that UTC offset is important, I am 
just trying to say that sometimes it may be inconvenient in usage.

To build agenda view aside from DST and over transitions and assuming no 
travel across time zones, all calculations may be performed without 
inspecting of UTC offset.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 17/04/2022 02:23, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/15/22 10:23, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> if you are storing future events bound to wall time then namely time 
>> zone identifier should have precedence.
> 
> Although that would make sense for some applications it's not a good 
> idea in general. For example, if you're scheduling a Zoom meeting you 
> should save both, because other meeting participants may interpret 
> strings like "Pacific/Apia" differently.

I would say that in such cases there is a primary time zone for such 
event and secondary time zones of other participants. Time transitions 
in the primary time zone (unless it is UTC that is the reference) affect 
participants from all other time zones. If some secondary time zone is 
changed then it affects only wall time in this particular time zone. So 
primary timezone and offsets in all time zones should be stored for user 
convenience and to figure out which notification should be sent after 
introducing new rules for some time zones.

>> Just identifier may be ambiguous around DST transition. So timezone 
>> abbreviations are ambiguous per se but when identifiers are known they 
>> may be still necessary to resolve uncertainties for backward time 
>> shifts. At certain moment the Olson DB started to use "+04" 
>> abbreviations instead of letters for transitions unrelated to daylight 
>> saving time.
> 
> Yes, timezone names like "Europe/Lisbon" are ambiguous during fallback 
> transitions, or if the meaning of "Europe/Lisbon" changes. This is why 
> one should also save UT offsets when generating localtime timestamps.

Before/after time transition around the date may be more meaningful for 
people. Local tradition may use other reference than Greenwich.

> Around five years ago I changed TZDB to numeric use time zone 
> abbreviations like "+04" instead of my inventions like "GET", because I 
> wanted TZDB to follow existing practice, not invent it. A nice side 
> effect is that numeric abbreviations are unambiguous. (Besides, even _I_ 
> couldn't remember what "GET" meant. :-)

Numerical abbreviation broke parsers in stable linux distribution, e.g. 
a patch for Qt required in addition to tzdata update. I do not remember 
details, but removed old-style abbreviations caused some problems as 
well. I may be wrong concerning usage of such abbreviation in the 
postgres parser and earlier generated text timestamps. On the other hand 
an abbreviation for a timezone with evolved offset significantly 
contributes to uncertainties and does not help to resolve ambiguity 
around time shift.

>> And WET/WEST gets another bit of info in addition to numerical offset.
> 
> That info is meant only for users; I wouldn't rely on it for 
> calculations because those abbreviations are ambiguous. It could well 
> be, for example that the meaning of "PST" in the United States will 
> change in the near future.

I agree that abbreviations are ambiguous when considered globally. When 
constrained to particular location (time zone) and moment of time, they 
may provide additional bit of information that is more convenient for 
users and enough to resolve ambiguity. It is not a general rule, 
sometimes uncertainty remains even when abbreviation is known.

>> I do not remember if it is possible at all to obtain using libc the 
>> period of constant time offset, when time shift value is valid. 
>> Sometimes it is necessary to recalculate offset.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand this point. One can easily recalculate the UT 
> offset in Emacs Lisp by generating the desired timestamp and calling 
> decode-time on it. You surely are talking about something else, but I 
> don't know what it is.

Let's assume Europe/Lisbon timezone. `decode-time' for today gives just 
+0100. It tells nothing if I need to process some thousands of 
timestamps for yesterday and past week. If some function returns "+0100 
for given timestamp and the same offset is valid for Europe/Lisbon since 
Sun Mar 27 01:00:00 2022 UT = Sun Mar 27 02:00:00 2022 WEST till Sun Oct 
30 00:59:59 2022 UT = Sun Oct 30 01:59:59 2022 WEST" then I can process 
whole bunch without any worry concerning non-existing or ambiguous time, 
extra or lost hour in time intervals. mktime should have all this 
information during intermediate calculations but it does not expose it 
to callers.

Interface of mktime is suitable for conversion of isolated timestamps. 
For bunch of related data there is enough room for optimizing.

>> You wrote that "2021-01-31 23:30:00 +0300" is parsed correctly. My 
>> opinion is that when time zone is known to be Africa/Juba (system-wide 
>> setting, environment variable, or an argument of the parsing function) 
>> then "2021-01-31 23:30:00 CAT" and "2021-01-31 23:30:00 EAT" should be 
>> parsed correctly (and localized date-time formats should be parsed as 
>> well).
> 
> That's not possible in general, since the two abbreviations can be the 
> same. Traditionally in Australia, for example, "CST" meant both "Central 
> Standard Time" and "Central Summer Time", and there are probably still 
> apps that use the equivalent of TZ="CST-9:30CST,M10.1.0,M4.1.0/3" which 
> does precisely that.

They should still have some way to disambiguate whether local time 
precedes transition or follows it in various schedules: night trains, 
buses, flights. However it might be just "*" and a footnote.

> It's hardly ever a good idea to rely on time zone abbreviations as 
> they're too often ambiguous. It's much better to use UT offsets. When 
> generating a localtime timestamp, one should always output its UT offset 
> (in addition to any other advisory info you might want to output). And 
> if you do that, many of the abovementioned problems are easily solved.

There is no general rule suitable for all cases. In some cases it is 
more convenient to store timestamps as seconds since epoch. However 
there are cases when it is fragile: dates without time (e.g. birth date 
in documents, not for astrology) or future events. Actually input data 
should be clearly marked to distinguish from guessed or derived values. 
If wall time is what exactly known then UTC offset is secondary data. 
When presented to users, UTC offset may sometimes add unnecessary noise 
with no real value. I do not dispute that UTC offset is important, I am 
just trying to say that sometimes it may be inconvenient in usage.

To build agenda view aside from DST and over transitions and assuming no 
travel across time zones, all calculations may be performed without 
inspecting of UTC offset.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/04/2022 22:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:30:21 +0700
>> From: Max Nikulin
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii, Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:30:21
>>> I see the time samples change in jumps of 15 msec.  Which is expected
>>> on MS-Windows, given the scheduler time tick,
>>
>> Why do you expect such value?
> 
> It is a well-known fact that the system timer tick happens 64 times a
> second on MS-Windows.

You may notice similar coarse scheduler timer on Linux as well. General 
purpose PC nowadays may have higher scheduler frequency, but I saw a 
case when usleep(1) caused 20ms pause while there was no problem to get 
higher precision form system clock.

>> Clock resolution generally has a little common with timers.
> 
> I agree, but that's something you should tell/ask Paul, not myself.

It may be deeper, e.g. additional call during initialization or extra 
privileges may be required.

>> I have no experience with windows-specific code, but quick search gives
>> GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime that should provide timestamps with fine
>> granularity
>> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/sysinfoapi/nf-sysinfoapi-getsystemtimepreciseasfiletime
> 
> That API exists only since Windows 8.

I suspect that it means just that MS does not support anything prior to 
Windows 8 any more. XP is mentioned in connection to this function: 
https://www.lochan.org/2005/keith-cl/useful/win32time.html

Writing about possible intentional hiding of high precision clock I was 
assuming latest windows versions, I believe, even Windows 8 is too old 
for such modern tricks.

> More importantly the Gnulib
> implementation of current_timespec doesn't use it.

Even if it is not used yet, is it intentional design decision or just an 
issue that should be fixed? I am unsure what function 
clock_gettime/timespec_get/gettimeofday is actually used on windows 
platform and how it is implemented.

It seems, only coarse clock is currently available in Emacs on Windows 
due to usage of current_timespec. Are there any known problem with 16ms 
resolution?

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 00:23:01 +0700
> Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, bug-gnulib@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
> 
> >> Clock resolution generally has a little common with timers.
> > 
> > I agree, but that's something you should tell/ask Paul, not myself.
> 
> It may be deeper, e.g. additional call during initialization or extra 
> privileges may be required.

No, that's not the case here.

> >> I have no experience with windows-specific code, but quick search gives
> >> GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime that should provide timestamps with fine
> >> granularity
> >> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/sysinfoapi/nf-sysinfoapi-getsystemtimepreciseasfiletime
> > 
> > That API exists only since Windows 8.
> 
> I suspect that it means just that MS does not support anything prior to 
> Windows 8 any more. XP is mentioned in connection to this function: 
> https://www.lochan.org/2005/keith-cl/useful/win32time.html

It doesn't matter to us, because we do support older versions.

> Writing about possible intentional hiding of high precision clock I was 
> assuming latest windows versions, I believe, even Windows 8 is too old 
> for such modern tricks.

There's no problem having high-resolution time stamps in Emacs on all
versions of Windows since Windows 2000, but before we implement
something like that, we should understand the goal and the effects on
Lisp programs.  Which is why I asked Paul questions that need to be
answered before we talk about the implementation.

> > More importantly the Gnulib
> > implementation of current_timespec doesn't use it.
> 
> Even if it is not used yet, is it intentional design decision or just an 
> issue that should be fixed? I am unsure what function 
> clock_gettime/timespec_get/gettimeofday is actually used on windows 
> platform and how it is implemented.

We use gettimeofdate, because the more modern clock_gettime requires
linking against pthreads in the MinGW64 builds, and we don't want that
additional dependency.  But since clock_gettime produces the same
15.6 msec granularity, we don't lose anything by using a slightly
older interface.

> It seems, only coarse clock is currently available in Emacs on Windows 
> due to usage of current_timespec.

Yes.

> Are there any known problem with 16ms resolution?

Not that I know of, but please wait for the discussion with Paul to
come to its conclusion.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

What appears to be happening here is that the MS-Windows native 
timestamp resolution is 1/64th of a second, and your system's clock is 
offset by 0.0075 s from an integer boundary. I.e., the timestamps in 
increasing order are:

   ...
   1650522862 + 62/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.976250
   1650522862 + 63/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.991875
   1650522863 +  0/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.007500
   1650522863 +  1/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.023125
   1650522863 +  2/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.038750
   ...

and the system clock never returns a timestamp on an integer boundary 
(i.e., tv_nsec is never zero).

We have two options to express this as Emacs timestamps:

(1) We can keep information about resolution but lose information about 
time, by using a resolution of 15.625 ms (i.e., 1/64 s) and truncating 
timestamps to the nearest 1/64 second.  This would generate the 
following (TICKS . HZ) timestamps:

   ...
   (105633463230 . 64) = 1650522862 + 62/64 = 1650522862.968750
   (105633463231 . 64) = 1650522862 + 63/64 = 1650522862.984375
   (105633463232 . 64) = 1650522863 +  0/64 = 1650522863.000000
   (105633463233 . 64) = 1650522863 +  1/64 = 1650522863.015625
   (105633463234 . 64) = 1650522863 +  2/64 = 1650522863.031250
   ...

(2) We can keep information about time but lose information about the 
resolution, by using a resolution of 0.625 ms (i.e., HZ = 1000000000 / 
625000 = 16000). (We use 0.625 ms because it is the coarsest resolution 
that does not lose time info.) This would generate the following (TICKS 
. HZ) timestamps:

   ...
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1562/1600 = 1650522862.976250
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1587/1600 = 1650522862.991875
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   12/1600 = 1650522863.007500
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   37/1600 = 1650522863.023125
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   62/1600 = 1650522863.038750
   ...

The patch does (2), and this explains the "gettime_res returned 625000 
ns" in your output.

It shouldn't be hard to change the patch to do (1), if desired. I doubt 
whether users will care one way or the other.


 > don't we use time values for file timestamps?

Yes, but file timestamps should use the resolution of the file system, 
which in general is different from the resolution of the system clock. 
That's a separate matter, which would be the subject of a separate 
patch. For now we can stick with what we already have in that department.


 > And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
 > Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
 > about the real resolution of the system time values.

If Emacs Lisp code (which currently is based on the Gnulib code) can see 
only (say) 1-microsecond timestamps, then it doesn't matter that the 
underlying system clock has (say) 1-nanosecond precision. Of course it 
would be better for Emacs to see the system timestamp resolution, and if 
we can get the time of day on MS-Windows to a precision better than 1/64 
second then I assume Emacs should do that. Once it does, the patch 
should calculate a higher HZ value to tell users about the improved 
resolution.


 > if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
 > is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
 > that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?

Sure, but the traditional (HIGH LOW MICROSEC PICOSEC) representation has 
the same issue. For example, if A's clock has 1 ms resolution and B's 
clock has 10 ms resolution, A's (time-convert nil 'list) called twice 
would return (say) the two timestamps (25184 64239 1000 0) and (25184 
64239 1001 0) at the same moments that B's calls would return (25184 
64239 1000 0) twice. A would say that the two timestamps differ; B would 
say they're the same.

This sort of disagreement is inherent to how timestamp resolution works. 
It doesn't matter whether the timestamps are represented by (HIGH LOW 
MICROSEC PICOSEC) or by (TICKS . HZ); users will run into the same 
problem in both cases.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

What appears to be happening here is that the MS-Windows native 
timestamp resolution is 1/64th of a second, and your system's clock is 
offset by 0.0075 s from an integer boundary. I.e., the timestamps in 
increasing order are:

   ...
   1650522862 + 62/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.976250
   1650522862 + 63/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.991875
   1650522863 +  0/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.007500
   1650522863 +  1/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.023125
   1650522863 +  2/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.038750
   ...

and the system clock never returns a timestamp on an integer boundary 
(i.e., tv_nsec is never zero).

We have two options to express this as Emacs timestamps:

(1) We can keep information about resolution but lose information about 
time, by using a resolution of 15.625 ms (i.e., 1/64 s) and truncating 
timestamps to the nearest 1/64 second.  This would generate the 
following (TICKS . HZ) timestamps:

   ...
   (105633463230 . 64) = 1650522862 + 62/64 = 1650522862.968750
   (105633463231 . 64) = 1650522862 + 63/64 = 1650522862.984375
   (105633463232 . 64) = 1650522863 +  0/64 = 1650522863.000000
   (105633463233 . 64) = 1650522863 +  1/64 = 1650522863.015625
   (105633463234 . 64) = 1650522863 +  2/64 = 1650522863.031250
   ...

(2) We can keep information about time but lose information about the 
resolution, by using a resolution of 0.625 ms (i.e., HZ = 1000000000 / 
625000 = 16000). (We use 0.625 ms because it is the coarsest resolution 
that does not lose time info.) This would generate the following (TICKS 
. HZ) timestamps:

   ...
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1562/1600 = 1650522862.976250
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1587/1600 = 1650522862.991875
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   12/1600 = 1650522863.007500
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   37/1600 = 1650522863.023125
   (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   62/1600 = 1650522863.038750
   ...

The patch does (2), and this explains the "gettime_res returned 625000 
ns" in your output.

It shouldn't be hard to change the patch to do (1), if desired. I doubt 
whether users will care one way or the other.


 > don't we use time values for file timestamps?

Yes, but file timestamps should use the resolution of the file system, 
which in general is different from the resolution of the system clock. 
That's a separate matter, which would be the subject of a separate 
patch. For now we can stick with what we already have in that department.


 > And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
 > Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
 > about the real resolution of the system time values.

If Emacs Lisp code (which currently is based on the Gnulib code) can see 
only (say) 1-microsecond timestamps, then it doesn't matter that the 
underlying system clock has (say) 1-nanosecond precision. Of course it 
would be better for Emacs to see the system timestamp resolution, and if 
we can get the time of day on MS-Windows to a precision better than 1/64 
second then I assume Emacs should do that. Once it does, the patch 
should calculate a higher HZ value to tell users about the improved 
resolution.


 > if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
 > is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
 > that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?

Sure, but the traditional (HIGH LOW MICROSEC PICOSEC) representation has 
the same issue. For example, if A's clock has 1 ms resolution and B's 
clock has 10 ms resolution, A's (time-convert nil 'list) called twice 
would return (say) the two timestamps (25184 64239 1000 0) and (25184 
64239 1001 0) at the same moments that B's calls would return (25184 
64239 1000 0) twice. A would say that the two timestamps differ; B would 
say they're the same.

This sort of disagreement is inherent to how timestamp resolution works. 
It doesn't matter whether the timestamps are represented by (HIGH LOW 
MICROSEC PICOSEC) or by (TICKS . HZ); users will run into the same 
problem in both cases.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 16:56:25 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> What appears to be happening here is that the MS-Windows native 
> timestamp resolution is 1/64th of a second, and your system's clock is 
> offset by 0.0075 s from an integer boundary. I.e., the timestamps in 
> increasing order are:
> 
>    ...
>    1650522862 + 62/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.976250
>    1650522862 + 63/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.991875
>    1650522863 +  0/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.007500
>    1650522863 +  1/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.023125
>    1650522863 +  2/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.038750
>    ...
> 
> and the system clock never returns a timestamp on an integer boundary 
> (i.e., tv_nsec is never zero).
> 
> We have two options to express this as Emacs timestamps:
> 
> (1) We can keep information about resolution but lose information about 
> time, by using a resolution of 15.625 ms (i.e., 1/64 s) and truncating 
> timestamps to the nearest 1/64 second.  This would generate the 
> following (TICKS . HZ) timestamps:
> 
>    ...
>    (105633463230 . 64) = 1650522862 + 62/64 = 1650522862.968750
>    (105633463231 . 64) = 1650522862 + 63/64 = 1650522862.984375
>    (105633463232 . 64) = 1650522863 +  0/64 = 1650522863.000000
>    (105633463233 . 64) = 1650522863 +  1/64 = 1650522863.015625
>    (105633463234 . 64) = 1650522863 +  2/64 = 1650522863.031250
>    ...
> 
> (2) We can keep information about time but lose information about the 
> resolution, by using a resolution of 0.625 ms (i.e., HZ = 1000000000 / 
> 625000 = 16000). (We use 0.625 ms because it is the coarsest resolution 
> that does not lose time info.) This would generate the following (TICKS 
> . HZ) timestamps:
> 
>    ...
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1562/1600 = 1650522862.976250
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1587/1600 = 1650522862.991875
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   12/1600 = 1650522863.007500
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   37/1600 = 1650522863.023125
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   62/1600 = 1650522863.038750
>    ...
> 
> The patch does (2), and this explains the "gettime_res returned 625000 
> ns" in your output.
> 
> It shouldn't be hard to change the patch to do (1), if desired. I doubt 
> whether users will care one way or the other.

These are very fine details of the implementation, which we can get
back to later.  I would like first to discuss the more general issue
of basing the design on such tests, and on the notion of "clock
resolution" as expressed by these tests.  TBH, what you propose makes
no sense to me for now, and for some reason you didn't answer my more
general questions about that, but instead preferred to respond only to
their secondary aspects.

At this point, I object to any changes in this area until we discuss
the more general aspects of this design and decide whether we agree
with it.  Such a discussion should be on emacs-devel, so I move this
there; please continue the discussion there.

Thanks.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 16:56:25 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> What appears to be happening here is that the MS-Windows native 
> timestamp resolution is 1/64th of a second, and your system's clock is 
> offset by 0.0075 s from an integer boundary. I.e., the timestamps in 
> increasing order are:
> 
>    ...
>    1650522862 + 62/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.976250
>    1650522862 + 63/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522862.991875
>    1650522863 +  0/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.007500
>    1650522863 +  1/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.023125
>    1650522863 +  2/64 + 0.0075 = 1650522863.038750
>    ...
> 
> and the system clock never returns a timestamp on an integer boundary 
> (i.e., tv_nsec is never zero).
> 
> We have two options to express this as Emacs timestamps:
> 
> (1) We can keep information about resolution but lose information about 
> time, by using a resolution of 15.625 ms (i.e., 1/64 s) and truncating 
> timestamps to the nearest 1/64 second.  This would generate the 
> following (TICKS . HZ) timestamps:
> 
>    ...
>    (105633463230 . 64) = 1650522862 + 62/64 = 1650522862.968750
>    (105633463231 . 64) = 1650522862 + 63/64 = 1650522862.984375
>    (105633463232 . 64) = 1650522863 +  0/64 = 1650522863.000000
>    (105633463233 . 64) = 1650522863 +  1/64 = 1650522863.015625
>    (105633463234 . 64) = 1650522863 +  2/64 = 1650522863.031250
>    ...
> 
> (2) We can keep information about time but lose information about the 
> resolution, by using a resolution of 0.625 ms (i.e., HZ = 1000000000 / 
> 625000 = 16000). (We use 0.625 ms because it is the coarsest resolution 
> that does not lose time info.) This would generate the following (TICKS 
> . HZ) timestamps:
> 
>    ...
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1562/1600 = 1650522862.976250
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522862 + 1587/1600 = 1650522862.991875
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   12/1600 = 1650522863.007500
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   37/1600 = 1650522863.023125
>    (2640836580762 . 1600) = 1650522863 +   62/1600 = 1650522863.038750
>    ...
> 
> The patch does (2), and this explains the "gettime_res returned 625000 
> ns" in your output.
> 
> It shouldn't be hard to change the patch to do (1), if desired. I doubt 
> whether users will care one way or the other.

These are very fine details of the implementation, which we can get
back to later.  I would like first to discuss the more general issue
of basing the design on such tests, and on the notion of "clock
resolution" as expressed by these tests.  TBH, what you propose makes
no sense to me for now, and for some reason you didn't answer my more
general questions about that, but instead preferred to respond only to
their secondary aspects.

At this point, I object to any changes in this area until we discuss
the more general aspects of this design and decide whether we agree
with it.  Such a discussion should be on emacs-devel, so I move this
there; please continue the discussion there.

Thanks.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

This discussion was moved from bug#54764, because it sounds like a
general design issue is at stake here, and IMO we should discuss this
before making any changes.

I've removed the bug tracker and the Org and Gnulib lists from the
addressees, because I think this is strictly an Emacs design issue.
We can add them later if needed.  For now, please refrain from adding
them, to make the signal-to-noise ratio as best as possible.

> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 16:56:25 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 54764@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  bug-gnulib@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
>  > don't we use time values for file timestamps?
> 
> Yes, but file timestamps should use the resolution of the file system, 
> which in general is different from the resolution of the system clock. 
> That's a separate matter, which would be the subject of a separate 
> patch. For now we can stick with what we already have in that department.

Sorry, I don't understand what that "for now" means.  We are talking
about the design of how time objects are represented in Emacs, so that
design should cover all the possible uses of such objects, certainly
those uses which we already know about.  And that definitely includes
file timestamps.

So it is NOT a separate matter.  It should be part of the discussion.

>  > And for Windows, all this does is measure the "resolution" of the
>  > Gnulib emulation of timespec functions on MS-Windows, it tells nothing
>  > about the real resolution of the system time values.
> 
> If Emacs Lisp code (which currently is based on the Gnulib code) can see 
> only (say) 1-microsecond timestamps, then it doesn't matter that the 
> underlying system clock has (say) 1-nanosecond precision. Of course it 
> would be better for Emacs to see the system timestamp resolution, and if 
> we can get the time of day on MS-Windows to a precision better than 1/64 
> second then I assume Emacs should do that. Once it does, the patch 
> should calculate a higher HZ value to tell users about the improved 
> resolution.

You again are talking about the current implementation, whereas I
would like to discuss the design and our goals.  There's no problem
whatsoever to provide high-resolution time stamps on MS-Windows, if we
decide that this is what we want.  The only reason we didn't do that
until now is that it wasn't deemed important.

>  > if the "time resolution" determined by this procedure
>  > is different between two systems, does it mean that two time values
>  > that are 'equal' on one of them could be NOT 'equal' on another?
> 
> Sure, but the traditional (HIGH LOW MICROSEC PICOSEC) representation has 
> the same issue. For example, if A's clock has 1 ms resolution and B's 
> clock has 10 ms resolution, A's (time-convert nil 'list) called twice 
> would return (say) the two timestamps (25184 64239 1000 0) and (25184 
> 64239 1001 0) at the same moments that B's calls would return (25184 
> 64239 1000 0) twice. A would say that the two timestamps differ; B would 
> say they're the same.

Then it's a subtle bug in our current code that needs to be solved.

> This sort of disagreement is inherent to how timestamp resolution works. 

I'm asking why timestamp resolution, as defined by HZ, at all matters
in Emacs.  Please answer this question before anything else, because
it is IMO central to this discussion.  In addition to the general
cause you think this is important, please provide a list of use cases
where you can show that using this definition of time resolution is
important, and not using that would lead to problems.

An alternative would be to decide on a unified resolution for time
objects in Emacs, independent on what the underlying system does, and
then use that everywhere.  Why not do that?

The next important question is how do we define "timestamp resolution"
so that it covers all the uses, including file timestamps, time values
that come from external systems, etc.  (Granted, the simple
alternative of using a single unified resolution that is fine-grained
enough to cover all the known uses will solve this problem as well,
and AFAIU solve it simply and cleanly.)

I think we should only change our code after we conclude the
discussion of the above-mentioned general issues, and agree on our
goals and how we will implement those goals.

Thanks.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/21/22 22:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> There's no problem
> whatsoever to provide high-resolution time stamps on MS-Windows, if we
> decide that this is what we want.  The only reason we didn't do that
> until now is that it wasn't deemed important.

An example of when this matters is that GNU 'ls' needs to know whether a 
file timestamp is in the future because 'ls -l' uses a different textual 
format for future timestamps than it does for recent-past timestamps, as 
a visual cue to the user that the user has a clock skew problem that can 
screw up GNU 'make' and similar programs. For example, if I run the 
shell script:

   touch now
   touch --date=@$(date +%s.%N | sed 's/........$/99999999/') future
   ls -l future now

Here's the output I should see, because 'future' has a timestamp in the 
future:

   -rw-rw-r--. 1 eggert eggert 0 Apr 22  2022 future
   -rw-rw-r--. 1 eggert eggert 0 Apr 22 11:13 now

However, if GNU 'ls' got the time of day with lower resolution than it 
got file timestamps, it would use the wrong textual format for a 
recently-created file's timestamp, because it would compare a lower-res 
time-of-day like 1650651200.73 to a higher-res file timestamp like 
1650651200.734627956 that was generated before the current time. The 
above example would therefore generate the incorrect output:

   -rw-rw-r--. 1 eggert eggert 0 Apr 22 11:13 future
   -rw-rw-r--. 1 eggert eggert 0 Apr 22 11:13 now

When Emacs needs to do something like what GNU 'ls' does, it can have 
the same issue.

Admittedly this is not the most important issue on Emacs's plate. Still, 
Emacs should do a good job and be compatible with other GNU tools.


>> This sort of disagreement is inherent to how timestamp resolution works.
> 
> I'm asking why timestamp resolution, as defined by HZ, at all matters
> in Emacs.

It matters for applications like GNU 'ls' as described above. It also 
matters for applications that want to display a timestamp accurately, 
but without excess information that bogs down performance and implies 
more precision than is actually present. For example, current GNU 'date' 
can use a format '%s.%-N' that outputs the current time without excess 
trailing zeros in the subseconds part. Emacs should be able to do 
something similar.


> please provide a list of use cases
> where you can show that using this definition of time resolution is
> important, and not using that would lead to problems.

Doing what GNU 'ls' does, and what GNU 'date' does, are two use cases. 
Another example is doing what GNU 'cp -u' does when comparing file 
timestamps. I expect there are others.


> An alternative would be to decide on a unified resolution for time
> objects in Emacs, independent on what the underlying system does, and
> then use that everywhere.  Why not do that?

We've already done that in Emacs with the (TICKS . HZ) representation.

The obvious fix here would be to use better time-of-day primitives on 
Microsoft Windows, in particular, primitives that don't use a syncopated 
clock. (By "syncopated clock" I mean one that doesn't beat on 1-second 
boundaries.) This would be simpler than adding support for syncopated 
clocks to the Emacs timestamp format, as syncopated clocks are too much 
trouble to document and implement and would complicated too much code 
for too little benefit.

Besides, a precision of only 1/64 second on the time of day is not 
adequate for quite a few applications these days, so this issue of 
low-resolution time-of-day should be fixed on MS-Windows regardless of 
how Emacs represents timestamps internally.


>> > Yes, but file timestamps should use the resolution of the file system, 
>> > which in general is different from the resolution of the system clock. 
>> > That's a separate matter, which would be the subject of a separate 
>> > patch. For now we can stick with what we already have in that department.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand what that "for now" means.

I meant that we can stick with what we currently do for file timestamps, 
which is to generate Emacs Lisp timestamps with a greater resolution 
than what the file timestamps actually have. This loses information 
about the resolution, but does not lose information about the time values.

This doesn't mean I'm a fan of the current situation with file 
timestamps. It means only that we can address the current-time problem 
in one patchset, and the file timestamp issue in a later patchset. It 
will be better to separate the solutions in this way, than to try to 
solve the problem all at once.

> It should be part of the discussion.

OK.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Corwin Brust]

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 1:22 PM Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
> Besides, a precision of only 1/64 second on the time of day is not
> adequate for quite a few applications these days, so this issue of
> low-resolution time-of-day should be fixed on MS-Windows regardless of
> how Emacs represents timestamps internally.

Since this seems to be in reply to Eli's question about use-cases, can
you elaborate on some of the specific use-cases where 1/64th of a
second is insufficient?

Thanks very much!
Corwin

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 11:22:11 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > please provide a list of use cases
> > where you can show that using this definition of time resolution is
> > important, and not using that would lead to problems.
> 
> Doing what GNU 'ls' does, and what GNU 'date' does, are two use cases. 
> Another example is doing what GNU 'cp -u' does when comparing file 
> timestamps. I expect there are others.

It is ironic that you wanted to leave file timestamps alone, but
almost all of the examples you show are related to comparing file
timestamps with other timestamps.

I think there's no problem whatsoever in what we do as long as we
compare times whose source is the same, i.e. has the same resolution.
For example, even with the 15.6 msec resolution of the system time
functions on MS-Windows, we have no problems with stuff like timers in
Emacs -- we just lose the capability of reliably running timers with
time intervals smaller then the resolution.  But we never err about
which system time is later.

It is only when comparing timestamps from different sources that the
problem might appear.  But to do such comparisons correctly we need to
have each time object state its resolution, otherwise you will never
know how to compare them.  We cannot simplify by assuming that one of
them is more accurate and use the resolution of the less accurate one,
because such assumptions will never hold.  For example, while it's
true that file timestamps are more accurate on MS-Windows than the
system clock, sometimes it's the other way around: when using FAT32
volumes, the file time resolution is 2 sec (and, btw, that affects
GNU/Linux systems as well, when they use such filesystems).  Moreover,
some filesystems have different time resolution for different times
(creation, modification, access) on the same type of volume.

So, then, to do this stuff correctly, we need to assign resolution to
each time object.  That resolution cannot be possibly determined by
measuring the system clock resolution, because doing that will at best
provide the figure for one class of time objects.  ("At best" because,
as we saw, the current implementation of measuring that resolution
fails miserably on MS-Windows, producing a very incorrect value.)
What is the plan for other kinds of time objects?  For example, how
would we determine the resolution of file times -- do we have the
technology of telling that for each time field on each type of
filesystem we want to support?  And what about other types of time
objects, for example, those that come via Tramp from remote hosts --
how do we measure or otherwise tell their resolution?

Without having some plan to obtain reliable resolution figures in all
these and other important use cases, it makes no sense to me to
introduce resolution for just one kind of timestamp, especially since,
as your examples show, that kind of timestamp is the one that needs
resolution information much less than the other ones.

> The obvious fix here would be to use better time-of-day primitives on 
> Microsoft Windows, in particular, primitives that don't use a syncopated 
> clock.

Please don't be obsessed with MS-Windows.  The issue is much more
general and acute, as I tried to explain above.  What is the plan for
resolving the more general issue given the state of our knowledge and
technology, and the variety of sources of time data, each one with its
own resolution?  Is this at all feasible enough to even try?  It makes
no sense to me to start if we cannot solve this at least in most
cases.

> I meant that we can stick with what we currently do for file timestamps, 
> which is to generate Emacs Lisp timestamps with a greater resolution 
> than what the file timestamps actually have. This loses information 
> about the resolution, but does not lose information about the time values.

I don't understand this.  Two out of 3 examples you gave deal with
file timestamps, and you explained that we do risk losing information
there.  Given this importance of file timestamps, without having some
plan of solving that problem, the rest is actually a moot point,
because even if we consider the (contrived) example with 'date'
important for some reason, the result will be incorrect there for a
couple of milliseconds, and thereafter will become correct, and who's
to know, or care, that it was incorrect for those 2 milliseconds?

IOW, as long as we are talking about timestamps from the same source,
in this case from the system clock, the problem is so infinitesimally
small that it's almost academic, not a practical one.  So it makes
little sense to me to make changes just for that one class of
timestamps without a clear plan for the other classes.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/22/22 11:52, Corwin Brust wrote:
> Since this seems to be in reply to Eli's question about use-cases, can
> you elaborate on some of the specific use-cases where 1/64th of a
> second is insufficient?

When Emacs needs to deal with more than 64 spaced events per second, or 
with external time sources that deal with more than 64 such events per 
second, a resolution of 1/64 second is inadequate.

In my previous message I gave the example of comparing the current time 
in 1/64-second resolution to file timestamps in (say) 100 ns resolution, 
where Emacs can compare timestamps incorrectly.

Another example would be comparing internally-generated timestamps to 
Internet RFC 3339 or ISO 8601 timestamps retrieved from the outside 
world. LANs synchronized via NTP can routinely synchronize clocks to 
less than 10 ms, and processes running on a single node can synchronize 
even more closely. But if Emacs reports the current time to within only 
1/64 s, its timestamps introduce more clock skew than its underlying 
platforms do, making it harder to build distributed apps with 
high-quality timestamps.

Of course most apps don't need high-quality timestamps. However, I don't 
see why Emacs would insist on generating low-quality timestamps if 
higher-quality timestamps are readily available.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/22/22 12:35, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> to do such comparisons correctly we need to
> have each time object state its resolution, otherwise you will never
> know how to compare them.

Yes, quite true.


> That resolution cannot be possibly determined by
> measuring the system clock resolution, because doing that will at best
> provide the figure for one class of time objects.

Also quite right. Emacs needs to determine the timestamp for each class 
of objects as best it can.


> the current implementation of measuring that resolution
> fails miserably on MS-Windows, producing a very incorrect value.)

It's a correct value for what it's measuring, which is (roughly) the 
number of digits needed to express each timestamp precisely. It's not 
correct for a different measure, namely the timestamp resolution, which 
it sounds like is what you'd prefer. As I mentioned in 
<https://bugs.gnu.org/54764#111> it shouldn't be hard to support this 
other measure, and I can look into doing that.


> What is the plan for other kinds of time objects?  For example, how
> would we determine the resolution of file times

We could do what Coreutils does, in commands like 'cp -u' that sample 
timestamps in each file system to determine resolution. This approach 
works well enough in practice. There are Gnulib library functions to 
deal with this sort of thing; it's not a new problem.


> as your examples show, that kind of timestamp is the one that needs
> resolution information much less than the other ones.

I don't see how the examples show that.


> Please don't be obsessed with MS-Windows.

There's no obsession here on my part. MS-Windows appears to be the only 
platform where current-time generates such low-resolution timestamps, or 
generates syncopated timestamps, and that's why discussion has naturally 
centered on that platform.


> examples you gave deal with
> file timestamps, and you explained that we do risk losing information
> there.

Yes, and Emacs currently loses all information about file timestamp 
resolution, on all platforms.  It would be better for Emacs to report as 
much of that information as it easily can. This could be done by using 
the Gnulib library functions suggested above. Reporting this information 
is better than losing it.


> even if we consider the (contrived) example with 'date'
> important for some reason, the result will be incorrect there for a
> couple of milliseconds, and thereafter will become correct, and who's
> to know, or care, that it was incorrect for those 2 milliseconds?

Yes, most users don't notice timestamps being a little off. And these 
users surely won't care whether we improve the timestamps to be more 
accurate. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to improve 
timestamp quality.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:26:16 -0700
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, manikulin@gmail.com,
>  Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/22/22 11:52, Corwin Brust wrote:
> > Since this seems to be in reply to Eli's question about use-cases, can
> > you elaborate on some of the specific use-cases where 1/64th of a
> > second is insufficient?
> 
> When Emacs needs to deal with more than 64 spaced events per second, or 
> with external time sources that deal with more than 64 such events per 
> second, a resolution of 1/64 second is inadequate.
> 
> In my previous message I gave the example of comparing the current time 
> in 1/64-second resolution to file timestamps in (say) 100 ns resolution, 
> where Emacs can compare timestamps incorrectly.
> 
> Another example would be comparing internally-generated timestamps to 
> Internet RFC 3339 or ISO 8601 timestamps retrieved from the outside 
> world. LANs synchronized via NTP can routinely synchronize clocks to 
> less than 10 ms, and processes running on a single node can synchronize 
> even more closely. But if Emacs reports the current time to within only 
> 1/64 s, its timestamps introduce more clock skew than its underlying 
> platforms do, making it harder to build distributed apps with 
> high-quality timestamps.

You will excuse me, but I find these examples artificial when Emacs
Lisp programs are concerned.  There's no reason to expect Emacs to be
able to support such applications on all platforms.  Not to mention
that synchronizing clocks to millisecond accuracy on non-RT systems is
in most cases futile, because the OS doesn't provide reliable timings
to that accuracy anyway.

> Of course most apps don't need high-quality timestamps. However, I don't 
> see why Emacs would insist on generating low-quality timestamps if 
> higher-quality timestamps are readily available.

We don't _insist_ on providing low-accuracy timestamps, but we should
definitely be certainly concerned about adding such non-trivial
complexity to Emacs for the benefit of extremely rare (if any) use
cases.  So far I have yet to see an example of an important use case
that would justify that, let alone a plan for reasonably practical
ways of providing the time resolution figures for each source of time
information (see my other message).

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:52:47 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> > That resolution cannot be possibly determined by
> > measuring the system clock resolution, because doing that will at best
> > provide the figure for one class of time objects.
> 
> Also quite right. Emacs needs to determine the timestamp for each class 
> of objects as best it can.

The question is: how feasible is that?  See below; my current
conclusion is that it is not feasible in general.

> > What is the plan for other kinds of time objects?  For example, how
> > would we determine the resolution of file times
> 
> We could do what Coreutils does, in commands like 'cp -u' that sample 
> timestamps in each file system to determine resolution. This approach 
> works well enough in practice. There are Gnulib library functions to 
> deal with this sort of thing; it's not a new problem.

Doesn't that slow down applications?  How many time stamps should we
need to sample to determine a good estimation?  The sampling should be
separate for each filesystem, but do we have information about the
file's filesystem in all cases?  What about the cases of different
accuracies for different times (creation, modification, access)?

These questions need to have practical reasonable answers before we
decide this is tractable.

I also question the need for Emacs to do what few other applications
do (GNU Coreutils are an exception rather than the rule here, AFAIK),
given the tremendous complexities this will require from us.  For
example, 'cp' specifically deals with copying many files, but that's
not what Emacs does in most applications where it cares about
comparing file timestamps with some other class of timestamps.  So
where 'cp' can sample file timestamps of the files it is copying,
Emacs will be unable to do so, without costly traversing directories
it has no business of looking at, and for which it may not have access
rights in the first place.

> > as your examples show, that kind of timestamp is the one that needs
> > resolution information much less than the other ones.
> 
> I don't see how the examples show that.

The 'date' example is IMNSHO artificial and not important, except for
people whose special interest is in time APIs.

> > Please don't be obsessed with MS-Windows.
> 
> There's no obsession here on my part. MS-Windows appears to be the only 
> platform where current-time generates such low-resolution timestamps, or 
> generates syncopated timestamps, and that's why discussion has naturally 
> centered on that platform.

That's what I'm saying: don't center the discussion on Windows.  The
problem is much more general and broad, see above and below.

> > examples you gave deal with
> > file timestamps, and you explained that we do risk losing information
> > there.
> 
> Yes, and Emacs currently loses all information about file timestamp 
> resolution, on all platforms.  It would be better for Emacs to report as 
> much of that information as it easily can. This could be done by using 
> the Gnulib library functions suggested above. Reporting this information 
> is better than losing it.

Please point to those function so they could be studied, or describe
what they do here.  I don't see how this could be reasonably solved in
general, even for file timestamps.

And what about other sources of time data?  For example, timestamps
from other systems (like in your NTP example), timestamps that are
reported by Tramp functions, etc.?  How do we reliably estimate the
accuracy of those?

Once again, without a comprehensive plan that is capable of covering
all the sources of time information we routinely deal with in Emacs, I
don't think we should make any significant changes in our time-API
infrastructure nor in the structure of our time representation
objects.

> > even if we consider the (contrived) example with 'date'
> > important for some reason, the result will be incorrect there for a
> > couple of milliseconds, and thereafter will become correct, and who's
> > to know, or care, that it was incorrect for those 2 milliseconds?
> 
> Yes, most users don't notice timestamps being a little off. And these 
> users surely won't care whether we improve the timestamps to be more 
> accurate. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to improve 
> timestamp quality.

It isn't a bad idea, but if the complexity it introduces into the way
Emacs handles time information is too high and the benefits are too
low, then we shouldn't add such complexities to Emacs, because the
benefits won't justify the costs.

So far I'm not convinced it is feasible to solve these issues in Emacs
without introducing unreasonable complexity, and even that will only
provide a partial solution.  Once we understand which part(s) of this
can be solved and at what cost, we could perhaps come up with
simplified solutions that avoid most of the costs, such as using a
static database of timestamp accuracies for important classes of
timestamps.  But we aren't there yet, and it is so far premature to
discuss these specifics.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Bernhard Voelker]

On 4/20/22 20:19, Paul Eggert wrote:
> diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
> index 611f83ad27..bb4d0b191d 100644
> --- a/lib/gettime-res.c
> +++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
> @@ -53,6 +53,8 @@ gettime_res (void)
>
>    long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
>    long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
> +  struct timespec earlier;
> +  earlier.tv_nsec = -1;
>
>    /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
>       too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
> @@ -61,9 +63,22 @@ gettime_res (void)
>       resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
>       trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
>       bounds on resolution.  */
> -  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
> +  int nsamples = 32;
> +  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < nsamples; i++)
>      {
> -      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
> +      /* If successive timestamps disagree the clock resolution must
> +         be small, so exit the inner loop to check this sample.
> +         Otherwise, arrange for the outer loop to exit but continue
> +         the inner-loop search for a differing timestamp sample.  */
> +      struct timespec now;
> +      for (;; i = nsamples)
> +        {
> +          now = current_timespec ();
> +          if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
> +            break;
> +        }
> +      earlier = now;
> +
>        r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
>      }

lib/gettime-res.c: In function 'gettime_res':
lib/gettime-res.c:77:46: error: 'earlier.tv_sec' may be used uninitialized in this function \
[-Werror=maybe-uninitialized]
   77 |           if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
      |               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


We know that earlier.tv_sec is set when tv_nsec is set, but the compiler does not,
obviously.  Considering the nested loops, I'd say initializing tv_sec doesn't
harm performance-wise.

Have a nice day,
Berny

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Bernhard Voelker]

On 4/20/22 20:19, Paul Eggert wrote:
> diff --git a/lib/gettime-res.c b/lib/gettime-res.c
> index 611f83ad27..bb4d0b191d 100644
> --- a/lib/gettime-res.c
> +++ b/lib/gettime-res.c
> @@ -53,6 +53,8 @@ gettime_res (void)
>
>    long int hz = TIMESPEC_HZ;
>    long int r = hz * res.tv_sec + res.tv_nsec;
> +  struct timespec earlier;
> +  earlier.tv_nsec = -1;
>
>    /* On some platforms, clock_getres (CLOCK_REALTIME, ...) yields a
>       too-large resolution, under the mistaken theory that it should
> @@ -61,9 +63,22 @@ gettime_res (void)
>       resolution.  Work around the problem with high probability by
>       trying clock_gettime several times and observing the resulting
>       bounds on resolution.  */
> -  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < 32; i++)
> +  int nsamples = 32;
> +  for (int i = 0; 1 < r && i < nsamples; i++)
>      {
> -      struct timespec now = current_timespec ();
> +      /* If successive timestamps disagree the clock resolution must
> +         be small, so exit the inner loop to check this sample.
> +         Otherwise, arrange for the outer loop to exit but continue
> +         the inner-loop search for a differing timestamp sample.  */
> +      struct timespec now;
> +      for (;; i = nsamples)
> +        {
> +          now = current_timespec ();
> +          if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
> +            break;
> +        }
> +      earlier = now;
> +
>        r = gcd (r, now.tv_nsec ? now.tv_nsec : hz);
>      }

lib/gettime-res.c: In function 'gettime_res':
lib/gettime-res.c:77:46: error: 'earlier.tv_sec' may be used uninitialized in this function \
[-Werror=maybe-uninitialized]
   77 |           if (earlier.tv_nsec != now.tv_nsec || earlier.tv_sec != now.tv_sec)
      |               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


We know that earlier.tv_sec is set when tv_nsec is set, but the compiler does not,
obviously.  Considering the nested loops, I'd say initializing tv_sec doesn't
harm performance-wise.

Have a nice day,
Berny

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/22/22 23:27, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> There's no reason to expect Emacs to be
> able to support such applications on all platforms.

Quite right. Many people don't synchronize their clocks at all, and on 
their systems Emacs can't generate accurate timestamps.

However, that doesn't mean Emacs should be sloppy about timestamps. If 
an OS has two low-level time primitives A and B, and A's resolution is 
100 ms while B's is 1 ms, surely Emacs should prefer B. Using B helps 
apps that can use 1-ms timestamps in a well-synchronized environment, 
and it doesn't hurt apps that don't care about timestamp resolution.


>  Not to mention
> that synchronizing clocks to millisecond accuracy on non-RT systems is
> in most cases futile, because the OS doesn't provide reliable timings
> to that accuracy anyway.

Even if one limits one's attention to NTP on non-realtime systems it's 
not hard to get agreement on a LAN to better than 10 ms, counting OS 
jitter. And better-than-10-ms accuracy is growing in popularity, due to 
applications that need good clocks and get them via PTP or other means. 
I regularly use networks that are synchronized better than 10 ms, and I 
wouldn't pooh-pooh the need for this sort of thing in apps that 
coordinate with others.


> We don't _insist_ on providing low-accuracy timestamps, but we should
> definitely be certainly concerned about adding such non-trivial
> complexity to Emacs

It sounds like we have miscommunicated, as this comment seems to 
disagree with your email of a couple of days ago that said "There's no 
problem whatsoever to provide high-resolution time stamps on MS-Windows".

If the question is whether to use a less-accurate method A or 
more-accurate method B to obtain timestamps, where Emacs continues its 
current practice of converting the timestamps to 1-nanosecond resolution 
internally before the user sees the timestamps, then I don't see why 
Emacs should prefer A to B.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:56:01 -0700
> Cc: corwin@bru.st, manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/22/22 23:27, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > There's no reason to expect Emacs to be
> > able to support such applications on all platforms.
> 
> Quite right. Many people don't synchronize their clocks at all, and on 
> their systems Emacs can't generate accurate timestamps.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean Emacs should be sloppy about timestamps. If 
> an OS has two low-level time primitives A and B, and A's resolution is 
> 100 ms while B's is 1 ms, surely Emacs should prefer B. Using B helps 
> apps that can use 1-ms timestamps in a well-synchronized environment, 
> and it doesn't hurt apps that don't care about timestamp resolution.

Everything else being equal, yes.  But if using A requires complex
code that will require a lot of maintenance, and if using the results
of A will affect most or all of the Emacs applications that use
timestamps, then we might as well conclude that using A does "hurt" is
enough to reject it, and make do with a lower time accuracy.

And it's not like the current situation is unbearable: Emacs does work
with millisecond time intervals, and works reasonably well.  We are
nowhere near the 1-sec resolution of your argument above, we are waaay
better than that.  You are actually arguing for moving from
millisecond resolution to nanosecond resolution, and I'm asking where
are the Emacs applications that will benefit from such a high
resolution.  So far the examples you provided are marginal at best,
perhaps even irrelevant to what we do or want to do in Emacs.

> >  Not to mention
> > that synchronizing clocks to millisecond accuracy on non-RT systems is
> > in most cases futile, because the OS doesn't provide reliable timings
> > to that accuracy anyway.
> 
> Even if one limits one's attention to NTP on non-realtime systems it's 
> not hard to get agreement on a LAN to better than 10 ms, counting OS 
> jitter. And better-than-10-ms accuracy is growing in popularity, due to 
> applications that need good clocks and get them via PTP or other means. 
> I regularly use networks that are synchronized better than 10 ms, and I 
> wouldn't pooh-pooh the need for this sort of thing in apps that 
> coordinate with others.

That misses the point.  The point is that on a non-RT system there's
precious little one can reliably do with time intervals shorter than
10 ms.

> > We don't _insist_ on providing low-accuracy timestamps, but we should
> > definitely be certainly concerned about adding such non-trivial
> > complexity to Emacs
> 
> It sounds like we have miscommunicated, as this comment seems to 
> disagree with your email of a couple of days ago that said "There's no 
> problem whatsoever to provide high-resolution time stamps on MS-Windows".

You are again focused on low-level details of MS-Windows
implementation of the relevant primitives, whereas I'm talking about
much more general issues that affect all of Emacs on any platform.

My point is that your current plan, such as it is, for providing the
time accuracy for every source of time information we care about means
adding non-trivial complexity to Emacs, on all platforms, and I have
yet to see any evidence that what you propose is capable of solving
any large part of the problems we could face wrt comparing timestamps
from different sources using reasonably practical techniques.  So my
current conclusion is that, if anything, we should look for much
simpler solutions, which might move us closer to the goal at much
lower costs.  For example:

  . provide optional arguments to time-comparison APIs that allow to
    pass the comparison accuracy, leaving the specification of that
    accuracy to the caller;
  . provide some simple functions that return estimated accuracy of a
    time source, using a static database of known timestamp accuracies

I see no reason to go any further, and I definitely don't see any
justification for making the time accuracy be a mandatory part of any
time specification.  The needs for such accurate methods in the Emacs
world are very rare, not to say nonexistent, so we should not force on
everyone something that will only be needed by a very few.

> If the question is whether to use a less-accurate method A or 
> more-accurate method B to obtain timestamps, where Emacs continues its 
> current practice of converting the timestamps to 1-nanosecond resolution 
> internally before the user sees the timestamps, then I don't see why 
> Emacs should prefer A to B.

I do see why: the costs involved in implementing B.  Costs in coding,
testing, documenting, and maintaining that for years to come.  I tried
to explain that above and in my previous messages here.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Max Nikulin]

Am I right that first patch "Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))" 
in the series we are currently discussing
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=54764;filename=0001-Support-encode-time-list-s-m-h-D-M-Y.patch;msg=48;att=1
(that is the goal of the bug#54764) can be safely applied independently 
of other changes related to time resolution? Does somebody object?

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:47:04 +0700
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
> 
> Am I right that first patch "Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))" 
> in the series we are currently discussing
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=54764;filename=0001-Support-encode-time-list-s-m-h-D-M-Y.patch;msg=48;att=1
> (that is the goal of the bug#54764) can be safely applied independently 
> of other changes related to time resolution? Does somebody object?

This thread is not about that bug, so please ask this question there.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/04/2022 01:29, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/20/22 08:07, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
>> the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks.
> 
> Yes, that's the direction we're headed.

Paul, a week has passed since you posted the patch series. Unlike the 
changes related to timestamp representation, nobody argued concerning 6 
element list argument of `encode-time':

[PATCH 1/6] Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))

Unless I have missed something, this patch can be pushed without other 
ones and it will be a step forward.

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/04/2022 01:29, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/20/22 08:07, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> I still believe that optional DST and ZONE values is an improvement of 
>> the `encode-time' interface with no real drawbacks.
> 
> Yes, that's the direction we're headed.

Paul, a week has passed since you posted the patch series. Unlike the 
changes related to timestamp representation, nobody argued concerning 6 
element list argument of `encode-time':

[PATCH 1/6] Support (encode-time (list s m h D M Y))

Unless I have missed something, this patch can be pushed without other 
ones and it will be a step forward.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/23/22 23:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> You are actually arguing for moving from
> millisecond resolution to nanosecond resolution

No, I am not actually arguing for that. Not at all. Again, there is 
miscommunication.

Let's drop the topic of timestamp resolution on MS-Windows. You say 
15.625 ms resolution suffices on that platform and you're an MS-Windows 
expert where I am not, and that's good enough.

Time resolution in Emacs

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/22/22 23:51, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> There are Gnulib library functions to
>> deal with this sort of thing; it's not a new problem.
> 
> Doesn't that slow down applications?

Not significantly, no. file-attributes already has the file's filesystem 
ID and timestamps so Emacs can easily cache that (it's a small cache 
with only one entry per filesystem). There's no need to traipse through 
the filesystem looking at other files. This is what coreutils does and 
it works well in practice. It's not expensive and not that complicated.

Your suggestion of maintaining a static table for known filesystem types 
is a good one; we could do that to improve common cases. I would like to 
take a look into doing this. If successful, it should improve coreutils 
and other GNU apps even if Emacs makes no changes in this area. In the 
meantime I'll withdraw the proposed changes that would cause Emacs to 
communicate OS timestamp resolution to the user; that sort of thing can 
wait until after I've had that look (assuming I ever find the time :-).


> what about other sources of time data?  For example, timestamps
> from other systems (like in your NTP example), timestamps that are
> reported by Tramp functions, etc.?  How do we reliably estimate the
> accuracy of those?

For example, if Emacs imports from the network a timestamp with three 
digits after the decimal point, it should convert it to an internal 
timestamp with millisecond resolution. Conversely when sending a textual 
timestamp, Emacs should generate only as many trailing digits as needed. 
This sort of thing is not perfect (nothing to do with timestamps is :-), 
but it is better than losing whatever resolution information is available.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

Yes, I plan to omit the patches that were objected to, and install the 
rest. Once that's done you should be good to go for Org. (Alas my 
workstation died over the weekend, but I should have things up and 
running again soon...)

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

Yes, I plan to omit the patches that were objected to, and install the 
rest. Once that's done you should be good to go for Org. (Alas my 
workstation died over the weekend, but I should have things up and 
running again soon...)

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:32:36 -0700
> Cc: corwin@bru.st, manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/23/22 23:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> Let's drop the topic of timestamp resolution on MS-Windows. You say 
> 15.625 ms resolution suffices on that platform and you're an MS-Windows 
> expert where I am not, and that's good enough.

I was not talking about MS-Windows.  I'm saying that I see no reason
to do anything about timestamp resolution in Emacs _on_any_platform_.
We are okay as we are, on all platforms.

Now, if you want to argue for _any_ changes in this direction, on
_any_ of the supported platforms, please describe the changes you had
in mind and the rationale for each such change in a manner that is as
system-independent as possible.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:34:04 -0700
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On 4/22/22 23:51, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> There are Gnulib library functions to
> >> deal with this sort of thing; it's not a new problem.
> > 
> > Doesn't that slow down applications?
> 
> Not significantly, no. file-attributes already has the file's filesystem 
> ID and timestamps so Emacs can easily cache that (it's a small cache 
> with only one entry per filesystem). There's no need to traipse through 
> the filesystem looking at other files. This is what coreutils does and 
> it works well in practice. It's not expensive and not that complicated.

Sorry, I don't understand.  Suppose the given Emacs session called
file-attributes on only 1 file: how do we know the resolution of the
file timestamps from that single file?  The fact that a timestamp has
N last digits zero says nothing at all about the resolution.

> Your suggestion of maintaining a static table for known filesystem types 
> is a good one; we could do that to improve common cases. I would like to 
> take a look into doing this.

Thanks, I think for starters we don't need anything else, like dynamic
determination of the actual resolution.

> If successful, it should improve coreutils 
> and other GNU apps even if Emacs makes no changes in this area. In the 
> meantime I'll withdraw the proposed changes that would cause Emacs to 
> communicate OS timestamp resolution to the user; that sort of thing can 
> wait until after I've had that look (assuming I ever find the time :-).

Yes, it can definitely wait.  I'd like first to see if my proposal is
good enough, and if not, to hear really good reasons why not.

> For example, if Emacs imports from the network a timestamp with three 
> digits after the decimal point, it should convert it to an internal 
> timestamp with millisecond resolution.

I'm not sure this is TRT.  What do you do if you get a timestamp whose
fractional part looks like .123000 -- do you consider this to be
millisecond resolution or microsecond resolution?  If the latter, we'd
get in trouble as result of trivial arithmetics on timestamps; if the
former, you risk losing resolution for now good reason, just because
the time stamp was too "round".

> Conversely when sending a textual timestamp, Emacs should generate
> only as many trailing digits as needed.

It's very hard to keep only that many significant digits when working
with fractional numbers.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/25/22 09:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> What do you do if you get a timestamp whose
> fractional part looks like .123000 -- do you consider this to be
> millisecond resolution or microsecond resolution?

The latter. That's standard practice, pretty much everywhere.


> we'd
> get in trouble as result of trivial arithmetics on timestamps

Whatever trouble we get into, will be less trouble than we get with 
arbitrarily converting to a resolution that differs from that of the 
incoming timestamp.

More generally, we can't do a perfect job with timestamp resolution, but 
that's OK. There's never perfection in timestamps anyway. What we can 
do, is do a better job than what we're currently doing.


> It's very hard to keep only that many significant digits when working
> with fractional numbers.

It's not hard to send a textual timestamp. Emacs does this sort of thing 
routinely when printing floats, and fractions are easier than floats. 
And Emacs code that computes timestamps internally can continue to use 
whatever resolution it is currently using; it doesn't need to arbitrary 
limit that resolution.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Max Nikulin]

On 25/04/2022 22:34, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/22/22 23:51, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
>>> There are Gnulib library functions to
>>> deal with this sort of thing; it's not a new problem.
>>
>> Doesn't that slow down applications?
> 
> Not significantly, no. file-attributes already has the file's filesystem 
> ID and timestamps so Emacs can easily cache that (it's a small cache 
> with only one entry per filesystem). There's no need to traipse through 
> the filesystem looking at other files. This is what coreutils does and 
> it works well in practice. It's not expensive and not that complicated.
> 
> Your suggestion of maintaining a static table for known filesystem types 
> is a good one; we could do that to improve common cases. I would like to 
> take a look into doing this.

Notice that on Linux while file metadata are in cache, timestamps may 
have high time resolution. When later fetched from disk they may have 
coarse resolution, e.g. whole seconds.

Generally it is fragile to rely on file modification time. That is why 
build systems relying of file hashes appeared.

As to 16ms resolution, at least for `benchmark-run' I would like to have 
finer granularity.

On the other hand, when higher timer frequency is required, from my 
point of view, it may be better to run such application in a separate 
process.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:38:00 -0700
> Cc: manikulin@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> On 4/25/22 09:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > It's very hard to keep only that many significant digits when working
> > with fractional numbers.
> 
> It's not hard to send a textual timestamp.

Yes, but the moment you do any arithmetics on that on the other end,
you start losing precision and gaining random digits.  We should keep
that in mind and not treat the results too seriously.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 23:54:58 +0700
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
> 
> As to 16ms resolution, at least for `benchmark-run' I would like to have 
> finer granularity.

Do you really run benchmarks that end in a matter of milliseconds?

In any case, measuring a time interval with high precision doesn't
necessarily need a fine-granular wall clock.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/25/22 09:54, Max Nikulin wrote:

> on Linux while file metadata are in cache, timestamps may 
> have high time resolution. When later fetched from disk they may have 
> coarse resolution, e.g. whole seconds.

Yes, that is a known bug in older Linux kernels. As I understand it, the 
bug was fixed many years ago. (It broke GCC builds circa 2004[1] so 
there was a good deal of motivation to fix it.) I expect this problem is 
no longer relevant; if I'm wrong, Eli's suggestion would help to work 
around it.

[1]: 
https://linux.kernel.narkive.com/XLtQbTzQ/linux-2-6-nanosecond-time-stamp-weirdness-breaks-gcc-build

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/25/22 08:37, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Yes, I plan to omit the patches that were objected to, and install the 
> rest. Once that's done you should be good to go for Org. (Alas my 
> workstation died over the weekend, but I should have things up and 
> running again soon...)

Got my workstation up, installed the patches into Emacs master, and am 
closing the Emacs bug report.

I'll be happy to review the revised org-encode-time implementation, 
whenever you think it could use a review. (Sorry, I've lost track of 
what the proposal is.)

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

On 4/25/22 08:37, Paul Eggert wrote:
> Yes, I plan to omit the patches that were objected to, and install the 
> rest. Once that's done you should be good to go for Org. (Alas my 
> workstation died over the weekend, but I should have things up and 
> running again soon...)

Got my workstation up, installed the patches into Emacs master, and am 
closing the Emacs bug report.

I'll be happy to review the revised org-encode-time implementation, 
whenever you think it could use a review. (Sorry, I've lost track of 
what the proposal is.)

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Glenn Morris]

It seems that eg (days-to-time 7) now returns a cons rather than a
two-element list. I don't know if this matters, but it means the
(admittedly silly) custom type of gnus-html-image-cache-ttl is no longer
valid. Ref: https://hydra.nixos.org/build/174776067

There is this comment in days-to-time:

    ;; Traditionally, this returned a two-element list if DAYS was an integer.
    ;; Keep that tradition if time-convert outputs timestamps in list form.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 634 bytes --]

On 4/25/22 14:16, Glenn Morris wrote:

> the
> (admittedly silly) custom type of gnus-html-image-cache-ttl is no longer
> valid. Ref: https://hydra.nixos.org/build/174776067

Thanks for pointing this out. I installed the attached patch to pacify 
the test.

The updated FIXME comment for gnus-html-image-cache-ttl suggests that a 
better approach would be for that TTL value to be a count of seconds, 
which is what TTL values normally are, and which is what I think 
gnus-html-image-cache-ttl's value would have been in the first place 
except that Emacs didn't have bignums way back when. I proposed a patch 
to do that (Bug#55117).

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Pacify-misc-test-custom-opts.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1095 bytes --]

From d6c7054ff5e1e87904353ddd73aecfead4321a7a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 17:49:23 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] Pacify misc/test-custom-opts

* lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el (gnus-html-image-cache-ttl):
Also allow it to be a cons of integers.
---
 lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el | 5 +++--
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el b/lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el
index 45f1e6099e..8b2200af54 100644
--- a/lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el
+++ b/lisp/gnus/gnus-html.el
@@ -46,8 +46,9 @@ gnus-html-image-cache-ttl
   :group 'gnus-art
   ;; FIXME hardly the friendliest type.  The allowed value is actually
   ;; any time value, but we are assuming no-one cares about USEC and
-  ;; PSEC here.  It would be better to eg make it a number of minutes.
-  :type '(list integer integer))
+  ;; PSEC here.  It would be better to make it a number of seconds.
+  :type '(choice (cons integer integer)
+		 (list integer integer)))
 
 (defcustom gnus-html-image-automatic-caching t
   "Whether automatically cache retrieve images."
-- 
2.35.1

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Max Nikulin]

On 26/04/2022 02:27, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/25/22 09:54, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
>> on Linux while file metadata are in cache, timestamps may have high 
>> time resolution. When later fetched from disk they may have coarse 
>> resolution, e.g. whole seconds.
> 
> Yes, that is a known bug in older Linux kernels. As I understand it, the 
> bug was fixed many years ago. (It broke GCC builds circa 2004[1] so 
> there was a good deal of motivation to fix it.) I expect this problem is 
> no longer relevant; if I'm wrong, Eli's suggestion would help to work 
> around it.
> 
> [1]: 
> https://linux.kernel.narkive.com/XLtQbTzQ/linux-2-6-nanosecond-time-stamp-weirdness-breaks-gcc-build 

Thank you. I do not remember why I was aware of such peculiarity and 
considered it as a feature. I have not expected that it was fixed.

Accidentally I have found the following proposal to add fsinfo() system 
call to the Linux kernel. It should expose timestamp resolution, but 
likely the patches was not merged. I have not read the discussion though.

https://lwn.net/Articles/827934/
David Howells <dhowells-AT-redhat.com> VFS: Filesystem information [ver 
#21] Mon, 03 Aug 2020 14:36:21 +0100

On 26/04/2022 00:02, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
 >> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 23:54:58 +0700
 >> From: Max Nikulin
 >
>> As to 16ms resolution, at least for `benchmark-run' I would like to have 
>> finer granularity.
> 
> Do you really run benchmarks that end in a matter of milliseconds?

It may be enough for quick estimations during comparison of methods 
having order of magnitude difference in running time.

Sometimes it is necessary to measure duration of particular calls 
without repetition.

> In any case, measuring a time interval with high precision doesn't
> necessarily need a fine-granular wall clock.

My experience is that it is even less probable to find monotonic clock 
or performance counters implemented when some legacy method is used for 
wall time.

Re: Time resolution in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:19:10 +0700
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
> 
> >> As to 16ms resolution, at least for `benchmark-run' I would like to have 
> >> finer granularity.
> > 
> > Do you really run benchmarks that end in a matter of milliseconds?
> 
> It may be enough for quick estimations during comparison of methods 
> having order of magnitude difference in running time.

Ut usually produces skewed or random results, IME.

> Sometimes it is necessary to measure duration of particular calls 
> without repetition.

In which case one must arrange for repetitions that don't have the
effect of repetitions.

> > In any case, measuring a time interval with high precision doesn't
> > necessarily need a fine-granular wall clock.
> 
> My experience is that it is even less probable to find monotonic clock 
> or performance counters implemented when some legacy method is used for 
> wall time.

My experience is different.

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 26/04/2022 02:49, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/25/22 08:37, Paul Eggert wrote:
> 
> I'll be happy to review the revised org-encode-time implementation, 
> whenever you think it could use a review. (Sorry, I've lost track of 
> what the proposal is.)

I suspended my activity due to discussions of other changes and waiting 
for commits related to your fixes of `org-parse-time-string' and 
`org-store-link' that do not require introducing of `org-encode-time-1'. 
I mean excerpts from 
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?att=1;msg=10;bug=54764;filename=0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch

I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
argument:

Max Nikulin to emacs-orgmode. [DRAFT][PATCH v2] org-encode-time 
compatibility and convenience helper. Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:34:40 +0700. 
https://list.orgmode.org/t43cki$ct$1@ciao.gmane.io

In my drafts I have the following changes in tests related to 
`org-parse-time-string':

diff --git a/testing/lisp/test-org.el b/testing/lisp/test-org.el
index 6aecc3af8..551d17d64 100644
--- a/testing/lisp/test-org.el
+++ b/testing/lisp/test-org.el
@@ -268,15 +268,15 @@
  (ert-deftest test-org/org-parse-time-string ()
    "Test `org-parse-time-string'."
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "2012-03-29 16:40")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "[2012-03-29 16:40]")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29 16:40>")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29>")
-		 '(0 0 0 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 0 0 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29>" t)
-		 '(0 nil nil 29 3 2012 nil nil nil))))
+		 '(0 nil nil 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil))))

  (ert-deftest test-org/closest-date ()
    "Test `org-closest-date' specifications."

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 26/04/2022 02:49, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/25/22 08:37, Paul Eggert wrote:
> 
> I'll be happy to review the revised org-encode-time implementation, 
> whenever you think it could use a review. (Sorry, I've lost track of 
> what the proposal is.)

I suspended my activity due to discussions of other changes and waiting 
for commits related to your fixes of `org-parse-time-string' and 
`org-store-link' that do not require introducing of `org-encode-time-1'. 
I mean excerpts from 
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?att=1;msg=10;bug=54764;filename=0001-Improve-Org-usage-of-timestamps.patch

I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
argument:

Max Nikulin to emacs-orgmode. [DRAFT][PATCH v2] org-encode-time 
compatibility and convenience helper. Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:34:40 +0700. 
https://list.orgmode.org/t43cki$ct$1@ciao.gmane.io

In my drafts I have the following changes in tests related to 
`org-parse-time-string':

diff --git a/testing/lisp/test-org.el b/testing/lisp/test-org.el
index 6aecc3af8..551d17d64 100644
--- a/testing/lisp/test-org.el
+++ b/testing/lisp/test-org.el
@@ -268,15 +268,15 @@
  (ert-deftest test-org/org-parse-time-string ()
    "Test `org-parse-time-string'."
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "2012-03-29 16:40")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "[2012-03-29 16:40]")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29 16:40>")
-		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 40 16 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29>")
-		 '(0 0 0 29 3 2012 nil nil nil)))
+		 '(0 0 0 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil)))
    (should (equal (org-parse-time-string "<2012-03-29>" t)
-		 '(0 nil nil 29 3 2012 nil nil nil))))
+		 '(0 nil nil 29 3 2012 nil -1 nil))))

  (ert-deftest test-org/closest-date ()
    "Test `org-closest-date' specifications."

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 826 bytes --]

On 4/30/22 04:22, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
> I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
> not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
> special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
> argument:

Thanks, I looked at that and have a couple of questions.

As I understand it, org-encode-time is intended to be a compatibility 
function like org-newline-and-indent and org-string-distance. Those are 
in org-compat.el, so I assumed org-encode-time would be there too.

Also, if the intent is to emulate Emacs 29 encode-time, can't we do 
something like the attached instead? The idea is to implement Emacs 29 
encode-time both on pre-29 Emacs (that don't support lists of length 6) 
and post-29 Emacs (which might drop support for the obsolescent form).

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-org-encode-time-compatibility-function.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1213 bytes --]

From 2f44ee7524e5b2e53f912cff1276f7817495c657 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 19:27:15 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] org-encode-time compatibility function

* lisp/org/org-compat.el (org-encode-time): New function.
---
 lisp/org/org-compat.el | 10 ++++++++++
 1 file changed, 10 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
index 3e394fbab1..0a0025fa0d 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
@@ -144,6 +144,16 @@ org-file-has-changed-p--hash-table
   (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
     (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
 
+(if (ignore-errors (encode-time '(0 0 0 1 1 1971)))
+    (if (ignore-errors (encode-time 0 0 0 1 1 1971))
+        (defalias 'org-encode-time #'encode-time)
+      (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
+        (encode-time (if args (cons time args) time))))
+  (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
+    (if args
+        (apply #'encode-time time args)
+      (apply #'encode-time time))))
+
 ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
 (if (version< emacs-version "27")
     (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
-- 
2.34.1

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Paul Eggert]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 826 bytes --]

On 4/30/22 04:22, Max Nikulin wrote:
> 
> I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
> not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
> special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
> argument:

Thanks, I looked at that and have a couple of questions.

As I understand it, org-encode-time is intended to be a compatibility 
function like org-newline-and-indent and org-string-distance. Those are 
in org-compat.el, so I assumed org-encode-time would be there too.

Also, if the intent is to emulate Emacs 29 encode-time, can't we do 
something like the attached instead? The idea is to implement Emacs 29 
encode-time both on pre-29 Emacs (that don't support lists of length 6) 
and post-29 Emacs (which might drop support for the obsolescent form).

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-org-encode-time-compatibility-function.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1213 bytes --]

From 2f44ee7524e5b2e53f912cff1276f7817495c657 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 19:27:15 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] org-encode-time compatibility function

* lisp/org/org-compat.el (org-encode-time): New function.
---
 lisp/org/org-compat.el | 10 ++++++++++
 1 file changed, 10 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/org/org-compat.el b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
index 3e394fbab1..0a0025fa0d 100644
--- a/lisp/org/org-compat.el
+++ b/lisp/org/org-compat.el
@@ -144,6 +144,16 @@ org-file-has-changed-p--hash-table
   (defun org-time-convert-to-list (time)
     (seconds-to-time (float-time time))))
 
+(if (ignore-errors (encode-time '(0 0 0 1 1 1971)))
+    (if (ignore-errors (encode-time 0 0 0 1 1 1971))
+        (defalias 'org-encode-time #'encode-time)
+      (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
+        (encode-time (if args (cons time args) time))))
+  (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
+    (if args
+        (apply #'encode-time time args)
+      (apply #'encode-time time))))
+
 ;; `newline-and-indent' did not take a numeric argument before 27.1.
 (if (version< emacs-version "27")
     (defsubst org-newline-and-indent (&optional _arg)
-- 
2.34.1

bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/05/2022 09:32, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/30/22 04:22, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>
>> I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
>> not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
>> special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
>> argument:

> As I understand it, org-encode-time is intended to be a compatibility 
> function like org-newline-and-indent and org-string-distance. Those are 
> in org-compat.el, so I assumed org-encode-time would be there too.

Maybe you are right. I believe that it should do a bit more than just 
ensure compatibility. An additional goal is to avoid pitfall with list 
vs. separate arguments result discrepancy:

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time 0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid")
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-03-31 23:30:00 +0200 CEST"

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-04-01 00:30:00 +0200 CEST"

> Also, if the intent is to emulate Emacs 29 encode-time, can't we do 
> something like the attached instead? The idea is to implement Emacs 29 
> encode-time both on pre-29 Emacs (that don't support lists of length 6) 
> and post-29 Emacs (which might drop support for the obsolescent form).

> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time '(0 0 0 1 1 1971)))
> +    (if (ignore-errors (encode-time 0 0 0 1 1 1971))
> +        (defalias 'org-encode-time #'encode-time)
> +      (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
> +        (encode-time (if args (cons time args) time))))
> +  (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
> +    (if args
> +        (apply #'encode-time time args)
> +      (apply #'encode-time time))))

1. I would prefer macro since it works at compile or load time, so 
runtime impact is minimal.
2. Your variant may be fixed, but currently I do not like behavior for 
Emacs-27. Compare encode-time and org-encode-time with new calling style:

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-04-01 00:30:00 +0200 CEST"

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (org-encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-03-31 23:30:00 +0200 CEST"

Re: bug#54764: encode-time: make DST and TIMEZONE fields of the list argument optional ones

[Max Nikulin]

On 01/05/2022 09:32, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 4/30/22 04:22, Max Nikulin wrote:
>>
>> I posted a corrected version of my `org-encode-time' macro, but I did 
>> not add you to Cc (I sent reply through news.gmane.io), and it has no 
>> special case to check whether `encode-time' supports 6 elements list 
>> argument:

> As I understand it, org-encode-time is intended to be a compatibility 
> function like org-newline-and-indent and org-string-distance. Those are 
> in org-compat.el, so I assumed org-encode-time would be there too.

Maybe you are right. I believe that it should do a bit more than just 
ensure compatibility. An additional goal is to avoid pitfall with list 
vs. separate arguments result discrepancy:

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time 0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid")
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-03-31 23:30:00 +0200 CEST"

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-04-01 00:30:00 +0200 CEST"

> Also, if the intent is to emulate Emacs 29 encode-time, can't we do 
> something like the attached instead? The idea is to implement Emacs 29 
> encode-time both on pre-29 Emacs (that don't support lists of length 6) 
> and post-29 Emacs (which might drop support for the obsolescent form).

> +(if (ignore-errors (encode-time '(0 0 0 1 1 1971)))
> +    (if (ignore-errors (encode-time 0 0 0 1 1 1971))
> +        (defalias 'org-encode-time #'encode-time)
> +      (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
> +        (encode-time (if args (cons time args) time))))
> +  (defun org-encode-time (time &rest args)
> +    (if args
> +        (apply #'encode-time time args)
> +      (apply #'encode-time time))))

1. I would prefer macro since it works at compile or load time, so 
runtime impact is minimal.
2. Your variant may be fixed, but currently I do not like behavior for 
Emacs-27. Compare encode-time and org-encode-time with new calling style:

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-04-01 00:30:00 +0200 CEST"

(format-time-string
  "%F %T %z %Z"
  (org-encode-time '(0 30 23 31 3 2022 nil nil "Europe/Madrid"))
  "Europe/Madrid")
"2022-03-31 23:30:00 +0200 CEST"