* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
@ 2016-09-26 20:46 Drew Adams
2016-09-26 20:54 ` Drew Adams
2016-09-27 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-09-26 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 24549
1. M-x customize-group RET emacs RET
That shows a group named "Text".
2. M-x customize-group RET text RET
says "[No match]"
There is apparently no such group - at least none reachable using
completion.
Something seems wrong, somewhere, e.g., for `customize-group'.
In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-w64-mingw32)
of 2016-09-17 built on LAPHROAIG
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
'configure --without-dbus --without-compress-install CFLAGS=-static'
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
2016-09-26 20:46 Drew Adams
@ 2016-09-26 20:54 ` Drew Adams
2016-09-27 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-09-26 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 24549
See this thread of help-gnu-emacs, for more information:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-09/msg00162.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
2016-09-26 20:46 Drew Adams
2016-09-26 20:54 ` Drew Adams
@ 2016-09-27 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-09-27 14:49 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-09-27 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 24549
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 13:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>
> 1. M-x customize-group RET emacs RET
>
> That shows a group named "Text".
>
> 2. M-x customize-group RET text RET
>
> says "[No match]"
>
> There is apparently no such group - at least none reachable using
> completion.
The group's _symbol_ is 'wp', "Text" is only its label (a.k.a. :tag):
(defgroup wp nil
"Support for editing text files."
:tag "Text"
:group 'emacs)
The ELisp manual says:
‘:tag LABEL’
Use LABEL, a string, instead of the item’s name, to label the item
in customization menus and buffers. *Don’t use a tag which is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
substantially different from the item’s real name; that would cause
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
confusion.*
^^^^^^^^^^^
(a.k.a. "do as I say, not as I do").
Unfortunately, this is a very old problem, and the 'wp' thingy is by
now probably spread too much, including outside of Emacs, for us to
even consider renaming the symbol itself.
So I think one band-aid solution could be:
. mention the group's symbol in its doc string, so that it could be
seen in the Custom buffer;
. extend customize-read-group so it also accepts group tags, not
just their symbols.
Any better ideas?
Patches welcome, TIA.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
2016-09-27 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-09-27 14:49 ` Drew Adams
2016-09-27 15:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-09-27 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24549
> The group's _symbol_ is 'wp', "Text" is only its label (a.k.a. :tag):
>
> (defgroup wp nil
> "Support for editing text files."
> :tag "Text"
> :group 'emacs)
Ah yes. I should have checked that.
IMHO, this is a gotcha. Emacs itself, especially, should not do
this by default.
If there is no good way to create an alias for group `text' here,
then perhaps we should at least create another group `text',
which inherits from this. The problem (gotcha) should be taken
care of in some way.
> The ELisp manual says:
>
> ‘:tag LABEL’
> Use LABEL, a string, instead of the item’s name, to label the item
> in customization menus and buffers. *Don’t use a tag which is
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> substantially different from the item’s real name; that would cause
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> confusion.*
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> (a.k.a. "do as I say, not as I do").
Exactly.
> Unfortunately, this is a very old problem, and the 'wp' thingy is by
> now probably spread too much, including outside of Emacs, for us to
> even consider renaming the symbol itself.
See above. I don't think there is a way to alias it (and then
deprecate `wp'. But at least we can make a group `text' that
DTRT.
> So I think one band-aid solution could be:
>
> . mention the group's symbol in its doc string, so that it could be
> seen in the Custom buffer;
Yes, but a user using `M-x customize' and then trying to drill
down, will not necessarily take time to read that doc.
> . extend customize-read-group so it also accepts group tags, not
> just their symbols.
That's not a bad idea. But in that case, we would essentially
get near-duplicate names for those groups that actually followed
the instructions and used a similar (but not identical) name for
the tag label. IOW, a tag that is more explicit (e.g. longer)
or is an abbreviation of the group name (i.e., shorter) would
be present for completion, along with the group name itself.
That's not a big problem, IMO. This could indeed be a solution.
> Any better ideas?
See above. We can create another group, `text', which inherits
from `wp'. Emacs itself could move toward using group `text'
everywhere. The doc for group `text' could say that `wp' is
deprecated (even though there is no code-enforcement via
warning etc.).
IOW, we can (1) make a group `text' that behaves essentially
like `wp' and (2) let users know that `wp' is considered
deprecated.
Yes, this would mean that both `text' and `wp' would appear
for completion. But unlike your proposed solution, this
would be a one-off bug fix, and not a generalization that
applies to every use of a tag.
A priori - i.e., until I hear more pros & cons, I think this
would be a better solution that what you suggested. What do
you think?
One way or another, we need, I think, to make `text' work.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
2016-09-27 14:49 ` Drew Adams
@ 2016-09-27 15:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-09-27 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 24549
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 07:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24549@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > Any better ideas?
>
> See above. We can create another group, `text', which inherits
> from `wp'. Emacs itself could move toward using group `text'
> everywhere. The doc for group `text' could say that `wp' is
> deprecated (even though there is no code-enforcement via
> warning etc.).
>
> IOW, we can (1) make a group `text' that behaves essentially
> like `wp' and (2) let users know that `wp' is considered
> deprecated.
If this works, it is probably better, yes.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
[not found] ` <<83twd1bcx6.fsf@gnu.org>
@ 2016-09-27 16:58 ` Drew Adams
2016-10-08 13:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-09-27 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 24549
> > > Any better ideas?
> >
> > See above. We can create another group, `text', which inherits
> > from `wp'. Emacs itself could move toward using group `text'
> > everywhere. The doc for group `text' could say that `wp' is
> > deprecated (even though there is no code-enforcement via
> > warning etc.).
> >
> > IOW, we can (1) make a group `text' that behaves essentially
> > like `wp' and (2) let users know that `wp' is considered
> > deprecated.
>
> If this works, it is probably better, yes.
IOW, something like the code below.
Question 1: Why is group `outlines' declared in both
cus-edit.el and outline.el? And in outline.el it has a
prefix declared, but not in cus-edit.el. Group `outlines'
is not _used_ in cus-edit.el, AFAICT. What would happen
if we removed group `outlines' from cus-edit.el?
(This question has nothing to do with this bug report.
Just happened to notice the duplication.)
Question 2: Should group `text' inherit directly from group
`emacs'? Should it also inherit from group `wp'?
I think the answer to both of these is yes. WDYT?
Question 3: Should group `wp' still be inherited from, by a
group that now inherits from `text'? E.g., should group
`tildify' inherit from both `wp' as well as from `text'?
I don't think so. If group `text' itself inherits from `wp'
then I don't think there is any reason that we need to have
other groups still inherit directly from `wp' (as well as
from `text'). WDYT?
I think that the more we can hide `wp' from users, the better.
If it needs to continue to be there for a while, because of
possibly existing 3rd-party code, then we should keep it
around. But we can try to minimize its obvious exposure.
;;; cus-edit.el
;; No :tag anymore
;;
(defgroup wp nil
"Support for editing text files.
Use group `text' for this instead. Group `wp' is deprecated."
:group 'emacs)
(defgroup text nil
"Support for editing text files."
:group 'emacs
;; Inherit from deprecated `wp' for compatibility, for now.
:group 'wp)
(defgroup outlines nil
"Support for hierarchical outlining."
:group 'text)
(defgroup tex nil
"Code related to the TeX formatter."
:link '(custom-group-link
:tag "Font Lock Faces group" font-lock-faces)
:group 'text)
;;; delim-col.el
(defgroup columns nil
"Prettify columns."
:link '(emacs-library-link
:tag "Source Lisp File" "delim-col.el")
:prefix "delimit-columns-"
:group 'text)
;;; lpr.el
(defgroup lpr nil
"Print Emacs buffer on line printer."
:group 'text)
;;; outline.el
(defgroup outlines nil
"Support for hierarchical outlining."
:prefix "outline-"
:group 'text)
;;; printing.el
(defgroup printing nil
"Printing Utilities group."
:tag "Printing Utilities"
:link '(emacs-library-link :tag "Source Lisp File" "printing.el")
:prefix "pr-"
:version "22.1"
:group 'text
:group 'postscript)
;;; ps-print.el
(defgroup ps-print nil
"PostScript generator for Emacs."
:link '(emacs-library-link :tag "Source Lisp File" "ps-print.el")
:prefix "ps-"
:version "20"
:group 'text
:group 'postscript)
;;; view.el
(defgroup view nil
"Peruse file or buffer without editing."
:link '(function-link view-mode)
:link '(custom-manual "(emacs)Misc File Ops")
:group 'text)
;;; nxml/rng-valid.el
(defgroup relax-ng nil
"Validation of XML using RELAX NG."
:group 'text
:group 'nxml
:group 'languages)
;;; obsolete/scribe.el
(defgroup scribe nil
"Scribe mode."
:prefix "scribe-"
:group 'text)
;;; progmodes/ebnf2ps.el
(defgroup ebnf2ps nil
"Translate an EBNF to a syntactic chart on PostScript."
:prefix "ebnf-"
:version "20"
:group 'text
:group 'postscript)
;;; textmodes/bib-mode.el
(defgroup bib nil
"Major mode for editing bib files."
:prefix "bib-"
:group 'external
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/enriched.el
(defgroup enriched nil
"Read and save files in text/enriched format."
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/nroff-mode.el
(defgroup nroff nil
"Nroff mode."
:link '(custom-group-link :tag "Font Lock Faces group" font-lock-faces)
:group 'text
:prefix "nroff-")
;;; textmodes/picture.el
(defgroup picture nil
"Editing text-based pictures (\"ASCII art\")."
:prefix "picture-"
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/refbib.el
(defgroup refbib nil
"Convert refer-style references to ones usable by Latex bib."
:prefix "r2b-"
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/refer.el
(defgroup refer nil
"Look up references in bibliography files."
:prefix "refer-"
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/rst.el
(defgroup rst nil "Support for reStructuredText documents."
:group 'text
:version "23.1"
:link '(url-link "http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html"))
;;; textmodes/table.el
(defgroup table nil
"Text based table manipulation utilities."
:tag "Table"
:prefix "table-"
:group 'text
:version "22.1")
;;; textmodes/text-mode.el
(defcustom text-mode-hook '(text-mode-hook-identify)
"Normal hook run when entering Text mode and many related modes."
:type 'hook
:options '(turn-on-auto-fill turn-on-flyspell)
:group 'text)
;;; textmodes/tildify.el
(defgroup tildify nil
"Add hard spaces or other text fragments to text buffers."
:version "21.1"
:group 'text)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text'
2016-09-27 16:58 ` bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text' Drew Adams
@ 2016-10-08 13:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-10-08 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 24549-done
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 24549@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > > IOW, we can (1) make a group `text' that behaves essentially
> > > like `wp' and (2) let users know that `wp' is considered
> > > deprecated.
> >
> > If this works, it is probably better, yes.
>
> IOW, something like the code below.
Thanks, done on the master branch.
> Question 1: Why is group `outlines' declared in both
> cus-edit.el and outline.el? And in outline.el it has a
> prefix declared, but not in cus-edit.el. Group `outlines'
> is not _used_ in cus-edit.el, AFAICT. What would happen
> if we removed group `outlines' from cus-edit.el?
> (This question has nothing to do with this bug report.
> Just happened to notice the duplication.)
This duplication is an oversight from when outline.el was converted to
use Custom. I fixed this now.
> Question 2: Should group `text' inherit directly from group
> `emacs'? Should it also inherit from group `wp'?
I left it inherit from both. It cannot do any harm, I think.
> I think the answer to both of these is yes. WDYT?
>
> Question 3: Should group `wp' still be inherited from, by a
> group that now inherits from `text'? E.g., should group
> `tildify' inherit from both `wp' as well as from `text'?
>
> I don't think so. If group `text' itself inherits from `wp'
> then I don't think there is any reason that we need to have
> other groups still inherit directly from `wp' (as well as
> from `text'). WDYT?
I agree.
I think this bug is now done.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
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2016-09-27 16:58 ` bug#24549: 25.1; Customizing group `text' Drew Adams
2016-10-08 13:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-09-26 20:46 Drew Adams
2016-09-26 20:54 ` Drew Adams
2016-09-27 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-09-27 14:49 ` Drew Adams
2016-09-27 15:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
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