* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
@ 2009-01-22 18:54 Peter Dyballa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-01-22 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-pretest-bug
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Hello!
When I build Emacs.app from source from yesterday evening (18:00 UTC)
In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (powerpc-apple-darwin8.11.0, NS apple-
appkit-824.48)
of 2009-01-22 on localhost
Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.824
configured using `configure '--without-sound' '--without-pop' '--
with-dbus' '--with-libotf' '--with-ns' '--disable-ns-self-contained'
'--enable-locallisppath=/Library/Application Support/Emacs/
calendar23:/Library/Application Support/Emacs' 'PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/sw/
lib/xft2/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/fontconfig2/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
freetype219/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/pango-ft219/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
qt4-x11/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/system-openssl/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
pkgconfig:/sw/share/pkgconfig:/usr/X11R6/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/lib/
pkgconfig:/usr/lib/pkgconfig' 'CFLAGS=-g -Wno-pointer-sign -
bind_at_load -H -pipe -fPIC -mcpu=7450 -mtune=7450 -fast -mpim-
altivec -ftree-vectorize -foptimize-register-move -freorder-blocks -
freorder-blocks-and-partition -fthread-jumps -fpeephole -fno-
crossjumping' 'CPPFLAGS=-no-cpp-precomp' 'LDFLAGS=-bind_at_load -
dead_strip -multiply_defined suppress -L/sw/lib/ncurses''
or today (12:00 UTC)
In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.2 (powerpc-apple-darwin8.11.0, NS apple-
appkit-824.48)
of 2009-01-22 on localhost
Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.824
configured using `configure '--without-sound' '--without-pop' '--
with-dbus' '--with-libotf' '--with-ns' '--disable-ns-self-contained'
'--enable-locallisppath=/Library/Application Support/Emacs/
calendar23:/Library/Application Support/Emacs' 'PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/sw/
lib/xft2/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/fontconfig2/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
freetype219/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/pango-ft219/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
qt4-x11/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/system-openssl/lib/pkgconfig:/sw/lib/
pkgconfig:/sw/share/pkgconfig:/usr/X11R6/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/lib/
pkgconfig:/usr/lib/pkgconfig' 'CFLAGS=-Wno-pointer-sign -bind_at_load
-H -pipe -fPIC -mcpu=7450 -mtune=7450 -fast -mpim-altivec -ftree-
vectorize -foptimize-register-move -freorder-blocks -freorder-blocks-
and-partition -fthread-jumps -fpeephole -fno-crossjumping' 'CPPFLAGS=-
no-cpp-precomp' 'LDFLAGS=-bind_at_load -dead_strip -multiply_defined
suppress -L/sw/lib/ncurses''
and have these settings after I've launched it as 'nextstep/Emacs.app/
Contents/MacOS/Emacs -Q --debug-init' (after a 'sudo make install')
Important settings:
value of $LC_ALL: nil
value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
value of $LC_CTYPE: de_DE.UTF-8
value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
value of $LC_TIME: nil
value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8
value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
default-enable-multibyte-characters: t
Major mode: Lisp Interaction
Minor modes in effect:
tooltip-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
global-auto-composition-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t
Recent input:
<ns-new-frame> <menu-bar> <help-menu> <send-emacs-
bug-report>
I get completely transparent background of the windows. Only the
frame's decoration (scroll-bar, tabbar), mode-line and the fringe's
decoration are opaque, text looks frayed out/worn out. When I launch
it the regular way then most colours are incorrect. And when I then
pick into the *temp* buffer, I activate the Aqua client behind
Emacs.app. Otool -L reports:
/System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
(compatibility version 45.0.0, current version 824.48.0)
/sw/lib/fontconfig2/lib/libfontconfig.1.dylib (compatibility version
3.0.0, current version 3.0.0)
/sw/lib/libdbus-1.3.dylib (compatibility version 8.0.0, current
version 8.0.0)
/sw/lib/ncurses/libncurses.5.dylib (compatibility version 5.0.0,
current version 5.0.0)
/usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current
version 88.1.12)
/usr/lib/libgcc_s.1.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current
version 1.0.0)
--
Greetings
Pete
"Evolution" o __o _o _
°\___o /0~ -\<, ^\___ /=\\_/-%
oo~_______ /\ /\______/ \_________O/ O_______________o===>-->O--o____
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* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
@ 2009-03-16 21:22 David Reitter
2009-03-17 11:56 ` Peter Dyballa
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-16 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 1993; +Cc: Peter Dyballa
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Hi Peter,
regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I have
just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not loading
org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
Thanks
- David
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
@ 2009-03-17 11:56 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 19:03 ` Peter Dyballa
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-17 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
> Hi Peter,
> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
I managed to solve the issue by editing the PLIST file. I don't think
I'll rebuild Emacs.app this week or this month – the X client needs
some work and investigation. Maybe in April ...
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
Musik hilft gegen Taliban, nicht Bomben.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
2009-03-17 11:56 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-28 19:03 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:05 ` David Reitter
2009-03-28 19:07 ` Peter Dyballa
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-28 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
> Hi Peter,
> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
>
The new interface is faulty: setting some value pops up a form
without the usual Aqua interface of the three colourful dots. When I
press Yes a crash seems to happen, which I did not want to report. So
the CrashReporter interface went away, but the Yes/No interface
stayed. And Emacs.app. Both don't go away.
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
Know thyself. Need help, call GOOGLE.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
2009-03-17 11:56 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 19:03 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-28 19:07 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:01 ` David Reitter
2009-03-28 19:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 19:54 ` Peter Dyballa
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-28 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
> Hi Peter,
> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
>
The new interface is incomplete: there is none of the options of the
previous preferences pane visible.
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
~ o
~_\\_/\
~ O O
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* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2009-03-28 19:07 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-28 19:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:02 ` David Reitter
2009-03-28 19:54 ` Peter Dyballa
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-28 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
> Hi Peter,
> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
>
The key binding is incorrect. Pressing ⌘-, Emacs.app reports:
Symbol's function definition is void: ns-popup-prefs-panel. The
correct key binding would obviously be: ns-show-prefs.
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
Ein Optimist ist in der Regel ein Zeitgenosse, der ungenügend
informiert ist.
– John B. Priestley
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* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2009-03-28 19:11 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-28 19:54 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 23:26 ` David Reitter
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-28 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
> Hi Peter,
> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
>
The previous setting of the Option key is not preserved. I can't type
[, ], {, }, |, or \!
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
Make it simple, as simple as possible but no simpler.
– Albert Einstein
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 19:54 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-28 23:26 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:09 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-04-04 6:26 ` Adrian Robert
0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-28 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: 1993, Adrian Robert
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On Mar 28, 2009, at 3:54 PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
> Am 16.03.2009 um 22:22 schrieb David Reitter:
>
>> Hi Peter,
>> regarding this bug: please try rebuilding with an updated CVS. I
>> have just checked in a few changes that may fix this (by not
>> loading org.gnu.Emacs.plist any longer).
>>
>
>
> The previous setting of the Option key is not preserved. I can't
> type [, ], {, }, |, or \!
In the NS port, ns-option-modifier is `meta' by default, so this is
logical.
I presume you had a customization.
Adrian, should we change this to match the Carbon Emacs default?
Your ns-compatibility-mode (forgot exact name) could change that, of
course, but without it, we don't have too many Mac like keys bound.
Traditional Emacs users tend to want a Meta key, while most users of
non-English keyboard layouts will need Option very regularly to do
tasks often done in Emacs {like C/Java/... programming}.
- D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 19:07 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-29 0:01 ` David Reitter
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-29 0:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: 1993
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On Mar 28, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
> The new interface is incomplete: there is none of the options of the
> previous preferences pane visible.
Some of the options are gone or have been merged with standard Emacs
options, others are available via the normal customization interface
(M-x customize-group RET ns RET), to which we are going to add
remaining options that make sense only on NS/Cocoa (if you know any,
let me or Adrian know).
I think we should add the Ns group to the top-level customization
group. Users are not going to find this stuff otherwise.
- D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 19:11 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-29 0:02 ` David Reitter
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-29 0:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: 1993
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On Mar 28, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
> The key binding is incorrect. Pressing ⌘-, Emacs.app reports:
> Symbol's function definition is void: ns-popup-prefs-panel. The
> correct key binding would obviously be: ns-show-prefs.
Thank you, I just installed a fix. The correct binding is customize.
ns-show-prefs is the event.
- D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 19:03 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-29 0:05 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:20 ` Peter Dyballa
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-29 0:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: 1993
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On Mar 28, 2009, at 3:03 PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
> The new interface is faulty: setting some value pops up a form
> without the usual Aqua interface of the three colourful dots. When I
> press Yes a crash seems to happen, which I did not want to report.
> So the CrashReporter interface went away, but the Yes/No interface
> stayed. And Emacs.app. Both don't go away.
Sounds bad, but I don't understand what's happening. Do you mean the
color panel?
Setting which value??
If you can reproduce, please file a proper bug report (separately).
The trace would be helpful, of course.
- David
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 23:26 ` David Reitter
@ 2009-03-29 0:09 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:14 ` David Reitter
2009-04-04 6:26 ` Adrian Robert
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-29 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993, Adrian Robert
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Am 29.03.2009 um 00:26 schrieb David Reitter:
> In the NS port, ns-option-modifier is `meta' by default, so this is
> logical.
> I presume you had a customization.
This is bad default, possibly applicable for a simple US keyboard.
When the system language default is non-US and the script is Latin
based then Meta should be Command and Alt left as Alt.
--
Mit evolutionären Grüßen
Pete
"Evolution" o __o _o _
°\___o /0~ -\<, ^\___ /=\\_/-%
oo~_______ /\ /\______/ \_________O/ O_______________o===>-->O--o____
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-29 0:09 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-03-29 0:14 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:24 ` Peter Dyballa
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-03-29 0:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Dyballa; +Cc: 1993, Adrian Robert
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On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
>> In the NS port, ns-option-modifier is `meta' by default, so this is
>> logical.
>> I presume you had a customization.
>
>
> This is bad default, possibly applicable for a simple US keyboard.
> When the system language default is non-US and the script is Latin
> based then Meta should be Command and Alt left as Alt.
Could be done, but I think we should stick to one default for all
layouts.
This may have to wait until Adrian is back from his travels.
- D
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-29 0:05 ` David Reitter
@ 2009-03-29 0:20 ` Peter Dyballa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-29 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993
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Am 29.03.2009 um 01:05 schrieb David Reitter:
> Sounds bad, but I don't understand what's happening. Do you mean
> the color panel?
No.
> Setting which value??
In *Customize Group: Holidays* the value to mark holidays initially
in *Calendar* buffer. When I press the Toggle button and then press
the "Set for current session" button I get asked whether all values
should be set according to this buffer. This question is already non-
sense – what do I care for Chinese or Islamic or Bahai holidays?! But
OK, maybe this the new default behaviour when customising a group of
settings ...
And the crash seems to happen after a time period, independent of
whether I press Yes or No.
> If you can reproduce, please file a proper bug report
> (separately). The trace would be helpful, of course.
OK, can be done!
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what
you're talking about.
– John von Neumann
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-29 0:14 ` David Reitter
@ 2009-03-29 0:24 ` Peter Dyballa
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-03-29 0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993, Adrian Robert
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Am 29.03.2009 um 01:14 schrieb David Reitter:
> Could be done, but I think we should stick to one default for all
> layouts.
Then the system's one. No artificial changes.
--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen
Pete 0
%-/\_//
(*)(*)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-03-28 23:26 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:09 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-04-04 6:26 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-04 16:00 ` David Reitter
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Robert @ 2009-04-04 6:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993, Peter Dyballa
On Mar 29, 2009, at 5:11 AM, David Reitter wrote:
> Adrian, should we change this to match the Carbon Emacs default?
> Your ns-compatibility-mode (forgot exact name) could change that,
> of course, but without it, we don't have too many Mac like keys
> bound. Traditional Emacs users tend to want a Meta key, while most
> users of non-English keyboard layouts will need Option very
> regularly to do tasks often done in Emacs {like C/Java/...
> programming}.
Hi,
I will just give my thoughts on this, but since this port is a
community project it is not necessarily my decision what to do.
The reason to prefer command = command is that emacs can then use
similar accelerator keybindings to other os x apps. The reason to
prefer command = meta is that emacs can use similar non-ascii latin
character entry to other os x apps. Which is preferred for a given
user depends on two questions:
1) is the user in continental Europe?
2) is the user editing code or text?
Why (2)? Now that I've been living on the continent myself for a
while, I've noticed that programmers here often just use a US
keyboard layout even if they have a physically non-US keyboard. It's
just too much of a hassle to get commonly-needed special characters
otherwise.
So my feeling is that the command=meta option is preferred by text-
writing Continentals, while command = command is likely preferred by
everyone else. I am not sure which group makes up a larger subset of
OS X emacs users.
I do know that I received a few complaints over the years from folks
disliking the Emacs.app command=command default. My answer was
always to rehash the above and note that it's easy to change it --
just flip a combo box in the prefs panel. Now that it's not so easy
(I guess figuring out the existence of ns/mac-command-modifier
variable and writing suitable elisp to .emacs is necessary), the
default setting becomes more important.
>> Could be done, but I think we should stick to one default for all
>> layouts.
>>
>
> Then the system's one. No artificial changes.
I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be
command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key
(additional to esc+) if he/she desires.
-Adrian
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-04-04 6:26 ` Adrian Robert
@ 2009-04-04 16:00 ` David Reitter
2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-04-04 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Robert; +Cc: 1993, Peter Dyballa
On 4 Apr 2009, at 02:26, Adrian Robert wrote:
>
> So my feeling is that the command=meta option is preferred by text-
> writing Continentals, while command = command is likely preferred by
> everyone else. I am not sure which group makes up a larger subset
> of OS X emacs users.
Well, a pretty stable 50% of all Aquamacs users are US based.
> I do know that I received a few complaints over the years from folks
> disliking the Emacs.app command=command default. My answer was
> always to rehash the above and note that it's easy to change it --
> just flip a combo box in the prefs panel. Now that it's not so easy
> (I guess figuring out the existence of ns/mac-command-modifier
> variable and writing suitable elisp to .emacs is necessary), the
> default setting becomes more important.
That's right. Similarly, I have received plenty of complaints about
Option=Meta, especially in the early days of Aquamacs.
>
>>> Could be done, but I think we should stick to one default for all
>>> layouts.
>>>
>>
>> Then the system's one. No artificial changes.
>
>
> I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be
> command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key
> (additional to esc+) if he/she desires.
Well, that would be another alternative - maybe a good one. It's my
second-preferred variant.
The reason why I support Command=Meta for Emacs 23 is experience from
working with Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs users. It seems to me that
there is a division between Emacs traditionalists, who would like an
Emacs with maximum compatibility across platforms. These people don't
need/want Mac keybindings. On the other end, you find people with the
need for cross-application integration. Unsurprisingly, that's the
typical Aquamacs user, while the traditionalists compile Emacs from
scratch or use a distribution like Carbon Emacs Package.
Due to this polarization, I think that it is sensible to Emacs Emacs-
compatible. Because otherwise, I'm not sure who's going to fill the
void.
(That said, Meta=Esc is a perfectly acceptable default setting, too.
Just not my #1 choice.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-04-04 16:00 ` David Reitter
@ 2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-06 14:35 ` Peter Dyballa
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Robert @ 2009-04-06 4:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Reitter; +Cc: 1993, Peter Dyballa
On Apr 4, 2009, at 9:45 PM, David Reitter wrote:
>>
>> I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be
>> command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key
>> (additional to esc+) if he/she desires.
>
> Well, that would be another alternative - maybe a good one. It's
> my second-preferred variant.
>
> The reason why I support Command=Meta for Emacs 23 is experience
> from working with Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs users. It seems to me
> that there is a division between Emacs traditionalists, who would
> like an Emacs with maximum compatibility across platforms. These
> people don't need/want Mac keybindings. On the other end, you find
> people with the need for cross-application integration.
> Unsurprisingly, that's the typical Aquamacs user, while the
> traditionalists compile Emacs from scratch or use a distribution
> like Carbon Emacs Package.
Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the same
role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones? Can we
follow Emacs on W32 in that case?
IMHO Command is too heavily used on the Mac to simply throw under the
bus by default -- the very user who will like emacs or uses it on
other platforms is exactly the one already using cmd-shortcuts in
other apps on the Mac. Further, "traditionalists" are most prepared
to get their hands dirty and set up a command=meta mapping if they
want it. Whereas a less savvy, single-platform user coming to
Emacs.app from Text Edit, XCode, etc. will be most at home with
command=super and alt=alt. As they learn emacs more, they can make
their own decision about which key to give up for meta if they
dislike esc+.
In any case the information about these key settings should be easily
accessible to users and the method of changing them should be easy.
This could be done with a customization buffer hyperlinked from
either the splash screen or a help menu item. This could be
reconciled with the desire to keep the interface uniform across all
platforms by allowing a sentence on splash or a single menu item
under Help for platform-specific information.
-Adrian
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
@ 2009-04-06 14:35 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-04-06 17:42 ` David Reitter
2009-04-06 22:53 ` Jason Rumney
2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Peter Dyballa @ 2009-04-06 14:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Robert; +Cc: 1993, David Reitter
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Am 06.04.2009 um 06:25 schrieb Adrian Robert:
> IMHO Command is too heavily used on the Mac to simply throw under
> the bus by default -- the very user who will like emacs or uses it
> on other platforms is exactly the one already using cmd-shortcuts
> in other apps on the Mac. Further, "traditionalists" are most
> prepared to get their hands dirty and set up a command=meta mapping
> if they want it. Whereas a less savvy, single-platform user coming
> to Emacs.app from Text Edit, XCode, etc. will be most at home with
> command=super and alt=alt. As they learn emacs more, they can make
> their own decision about which key to give up for meta if they
> dislike esc+.
I wouldn't mind if command=super by default – provided some key
bindings are reserved for Mac OS X (copy, paste, maximise/minimise,
hide/unhide, maybe also new frame and preferences/customisation), a
three button can be emulated, and the standard Meta key bindings of
GNU Emacs are also available as super key bindings (for example M-g g/
M-g M-g, which collides with s-g, isearch-repeat-forward).
--
Greetings
Pete
With Capitalism man exploits man. With communism it's the exact
opposite.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-06 14:35 ` Peter Dyballa
@ 2009-04-06 17:42 ` David Reitter
2009-04-06 22:53 ` Jason Rumney
2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-04-06 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Robert; +Cc: 1993, Peter Dyballa
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3229 bytes --]
On Apr 6, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Adrian Robert wrote:
>
> On Apr 4, 2009, at 9:45 PM, David Reitter wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with both of these. So perhaps the best default would be
>>> command=command (super), alt=none, and the user can set a meta key
>>> (additional to esc+) if he/she desires.
>>
>> Well, that would be another alternative - maybe a good one. It's
>> my second-preferred variant.
>>
>> The reason why I support Command=Meta for Emacs 23 is experience
>> from working with Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs users. It seems to me
>> that there is a division between Emacs traditionalists, who would
>> like an Emacs with maximum compatibility across platforms. These
>> people don't need/want Mac keybindings. On the other end, you find
>> people with the need for cross-application integration.
>> Unsurprisingly, that's the typical Aquamacs user, while the
>> traditionalists compile Emacs from scratch or use a distribution
>> like Carbon Emacs Package.
>
> Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the
> same role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones? Can
> we follow Emacs on W32 in that case?
They have a Windows key...
Their issue is that standard key combos like C-x, C-c, C-v collide
with Emacs bindings. CUA solved the issue in some way.
> IMHO Command is too heavily used on the Mac to simply throw under
> the bus by default -- the very user who will like emacs or uses it
> on other platforms is exactly the one already using cmd-shortcuts in
> other apps on the Mac. Further, "traditionalists" are most prepared
> to get their hands dirty and set up a command=meta mapping if they
> want it.
I've had pretty nasty complaints from people who said that they hit
"Command Q" (to fill) because that's what they're used to from Unix
systems and their keyboards, and then the app quit on them.
> Whereas a less savvy, single-platform user coming to Emacs.app from
> Text Edit, XCode, etc. will be most at home with command=super and
> alt=alt. As they learn emacs more, they can make their own decision
> about which key to give up for meta if they dislike esc+.
Well, like I said in my earlier e-mail, I don't think you can make
everyone happy. And there are SO many things to upset and derail the
newbie user that I wouldn't try to go for a compromise.
> In any case the information about these key settings should be
> easily accessible to users and the method of changing them should be
> easy. This could be done with a customization buffer hyperlinked
> from either the splash screen or a help menu item. This could be
> reconciled with the desire to keep the interface uniform across all
> platforms by allowing a sentence on splash or a single menu item
> under Help for platform-specific information.
That's a good idea. As per the other e-mail: the top-level
customization group should contain "ns" (or "nextstep"), along with a
note that these are the Mac specific settings, also (because NS isn't
really Mac lingo).
--
http://aquamacs.org -- Aquamacs: Emacs on Mac OS X
http://aquamacs.org/donate -- Could we help you? Return the favor and
support the Aquamacs Project!
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-06 14:35 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-04-06 17:42 ` David Reitter
@ 2009-04-06 22:53 ` Jason Rumney
2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2009-04-06 22:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Robert, 1993; +Cc: David Reitter, Peter Dyballa
Adrian Robert wrote:
> Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the same
> role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones? Can we
> follow Emacs on W32 in that case?
AltGr is distinct from Alt on Windows, so non-US users just lose one of
the meta keys on their keyboard. There are some users who prefer to use
Alt to access the menus though, and use the windows keys for meta.
Currently this requires a patched version of Emacs to work properly, we
have papers from the author, we are just waiting for the author to clean
up the patch so we can install it, for 23.2 now.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background
@ 2009-04-19 22:25 Tom Hageman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Tom Hageman @ 2009-04-19 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 1993
In article <mailman.4741.1239059038.31690.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>, Jason
Rumney wrote:
> Adrian Robert wrote:
> > Do W32 users face this same issue? That is, does 'alt' play the
> > same role on their non-US keyboards as it does on the Mac ones?
> > Can we follow Emacs on W32 in that case?
>
> AltGr is distinct from Alt on Windows, so non-US users just lose one
> of the meta keys on their keyboard. There are some users who prefer
> to use Alt to access the menus though, and use the windows keys for
> meta. Currently this requires a patched version of Emacs to work
> properly, we have papers from the author, we are just waiting for
> the author to clean up the patch so we can install it, for 23.2 now.
Naive suggestion mabe, but as most (all?) Macs also have left- and right-
Alt keys, can't one be used as meta and the other kept as alt?
Regards,
Tom.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-04-19 22:25 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-03-16 21:22 bug#1993: 23.0.60; Emacs.app has only transparent window background David Reitter
2009-03-17 11:56 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 19:03 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:05 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:20 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 19:07 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:01 ` David Reitter
2009-03-28 19:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:02 ` David Reitter
2009-03-28 19:54 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-28 23:26 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:09 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-03-29 0:14 ` David Reitter
2009-03-29 0:24 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-04-04 6:26 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-04 16:00 ` David Reitter
2009-04-06 4:25 ` Adrian Robert
2009-04-06 14:35 ` Peter Dyballa
2009-04-06 17:42 ` David Reitter
2009-04-06 22:53 ` Jason Rumney
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2009-04-19 22:25 Tom Hageman
2009-01-22 18:54 Peter Dyballa
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