From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:03:39 -0800 Message-ID: <2B5C98417BC14B52A67BFAB62DBC8EF9@us.oracle.com> References: <50994EF8.5000109@yandex.ru> <83vcdh1iwc.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352311438 17921 80.91.229.3 (7 Nov 2012 18:03:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:03:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 07 19:04:05 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9yv-0005Gr-2E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:04:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36778 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9ym-0006T4-2R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:03:56 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55804) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9yj-0006Ss-AR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:03:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9yd-0000On-C2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:03:53 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:36623) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9yb-0000NB-LP; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:03:45 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id qA7I3fan006607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:03:42 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id qA7I3eCE016814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:03:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id qA7I3eqk020633; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:03:40 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.8) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:03:40 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac29BEZEMHGBqJKXRKC1w/foz1jaUgACPpPg In-Reply-To: <83vcdh1iwc.fsf@gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154717 Archived-At: > > Bad idea. "page" in Emacs function and variable names has > > a meaning that revolves around the use of form-feed (^L) > > as a page delimiter. > > Only veteran Emacs users know about that meaning of "page", Evidence for that claim? And what constitutes a "veteran"? Anyone who has ever used a command such as `count-lines-page', `backward-page', `sort-pages', `narrow-to-page', `what-page', or `ps-nb-pages-region'? Anyone who has ever customized an option such as `page-delimiter', `ps-even-or-odd-pages', or `ps-selected-pages'? > and those should have no problems with the current command names. Irrelevant whether they do or do not. The point is that adding things whose names include `page' but that have nothing to do with Emacs pages adds confusion and works against name-matching (e.g. apropos). That's all. > And anyway, bringing up arguments from Emacs traditions Who said anything about tradition? I'm talking about the current Emacs behavior, not just its behavior since Day One. In general, "page" has a specific operational meaning in Emacs, and scrolling (unless it is scrolling up to the next/previous page delimiter) has nothing to do with that meaning. This is Emacs as it is, not just as it was or according to some quaint "tradition". > flies in the face of this thread's main premise, which is that > it's bad to have Emacs traditions contradict widespread conventions. Nothing about Emacs's use of page-related functions and variables, where "page" refers to pages delimited by ^L, "contradicts" that widespread convention about scrolling. It is simply that scrolling up/down a windowful of text should be called such. It should not be called scrolling up/down a "page", unless you deliberately want to add confusion and muddy the waters. And yes, I realize that we already have similar misnamed commands, such as `View-scroll-page-forward', whose doc nevertheless correctly explains that "page" here just refers to a windowful of text. > > That makes it easy to use `apropos' or completion (e.g. with > > substring matching) to show you such names. > > > > Co-opting "page" for this very different meaning (scrolling > > one screenful or some other amount) creates false positives, > > weakening this feature. > > Then you must object to commands and variables that match "code-page" > and "codepage", which already show in significant numbers in > 'apropos'. But since we already have this other meaning of "page", > having yet a 3rd one should not be such a grave problem, IMO. "Code page" is not the same as "page", anymore than "White House" is the same as "house". So no, I do not object to the use of the standard name "code page" - it cannot and should not be avoided. But yes, that can lead to additional "page" matches. Such is life. Some things are unavoidable, even if not ideal. Referring to scrolling that moves forward/backward a windowful as "page" scrolling is not one of them. Just call it what it is. And yes, it is true that "page" does have multiple meanings both within and outside Emacs - from electronic pagers to command-line pagers such as `more' & `less'. Such is life. I don't see the current proposal as a case where Emacs needs to add "page" scrolling to its vocabulary. Just one opinion.