From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: C-d deleting region considered harmful Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:39:19 -0700 Message-ID: <2988E644FE4A4AF1B5FB8C9F9E6BA69E@us.oracle.com> References: <87eicrx1ls.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83lj6zz9o0.fsf@gnu.org><4C94ED16.8010100@gmail.com><9DDC30C126BB4F8DBB4BDF7C977457B1@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1284838804 13708 80.91.229.12 (18 Sep 2010 19:40:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:40:04 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 18 21:40:02 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ox3GS-0001f6-TC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:40:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57447 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ox3GS-00005T-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:40:00 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50218 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ox3GL-00005N-9B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:39:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ox3GK-0003Pj-0J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:39:53 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:39924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ox3GJ-0003Pc-QU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:39:51 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o8IJdnvK004567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:39:50 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o8IJdl4E006247; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:39:47 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt006.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 616099751284838712; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:38:32 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.112) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:38:32 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: ActXZp4LxG6Ij1DkSVGnFXfQhSJ2MgAAJIUw In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:130445 Archived-At: > > All new users will NOT have to suffer forever. In fact, NO > > new users will have to suffer forever. New users, like old > > users, can discover options and change their settings if they like. > > If new users sees a tool behaving strangely, they say "how odd", and > then go on to the next tool. Some yes, but not all. You said "all new users". Following that logic, ALL of the Emacs default UI should be exactly what all new users expect - nothing more. (Let's ignore here the fact that new users do not _all_ expect the same things.) We should then make no attempt to move newbies in what we think is a better direction. That has not been the approach for designing Emacs (although some periodically do argue for such a knee-jerk recipe). Instead, each feature and its options are examined from various aspects and a judgment is made as to whether and how much to risk surprising newbies but also guide them toward something better. IOW, the devil is in the details: each potential default behavior is discussed on its merits, including its effect on newbies. There is no hard-and-fast rule that everything must reflect what most (not to mention all) newbies are already used to. Not surprising newbies is only one consideration, albeit an important one.