From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: Include C Manual from RMS in Emacs git, and/or release Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2024 22:07:17 +0200 Message-ID: <28423.6059685767$1733688485@news.gmane.org> References: <87ser8c230.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <86ser87rut.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25238"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 08 21:07:59 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tKNZO-0006PT-Qw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2024 21:07:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tKNYt-0007ww-HA; Sun, 08 Dec 2024 15:07:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tKNYr-0007wn-Im for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2024 15:07:25 -0500 Original-Received: from thaodan.de ([2a03:4000:4f:f15::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tKNYn-0006Wo-QM; Sun, 08 Dec 2024 15:07:24 -0500 Original-Received: from odin (dsl-trebng12-50dc7b-49.dhcp.inet.fi [80.220.123.49]) by thaodan.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2422D00030; Sun, 8 Dec 2024 22:07:18 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=thaodan.de; s=mail; t=1733688438; bh=YIvx5vac17OJeXCz25nXII41mTo3wen0aatapdSECVQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Rs9AeAdFp7G3sNmVTvGHDEhHgn5DOV9nezLvAFFyOP13n7ecN3jAPFAQBYnU8/W27 Ka9FkjOFPEVhQWiICTe+Wrzr31dkNo7OYuwObLtf9dPzO1KwEINZeEK91EgXdeG2XY XTdpmy5qKMtjWCef1sDxOJoQV9o/zbF2Xt6mfpr5hP2CViWaABuexJZNwLrSnP1Fd3 sxItdcZZfl/WU3oMdknyaUUAkvRyk4kbfyIxKENvrf9gIAr1koISEVubF32hy+ck/R VZXlwZmLaxXhIv7u7QPR0ghBbllcvmL0JlGbyjX6GkCHyPqOw6nb+mRajkboXIrep8 4m9wkopdZOdqFc+VKMeEwCs+W5CghhvhqJEv4p7Bc8mx27wbB3vjwZaDyxRw8czQXQ QweH8t2xsLk4DKvnjzueBQnm2HDYa67lyCDkM5Ys8iPClue7xb/dvLIbZLt3R5nu6R mVxQueildhdC2nJEcct28GfYFH05lAz1b1JTw6BXb5wBnRydts/5xtUdlGyk2ir3RV lc8mZ4N49OoOkmHPUjRoQSj/PMXSgki3gpNRQGKGAF64r3P6uF3s6zOJNIM4Fh1IP7 /OEpBvo+UQN8nJb+GzENqiG/qQxVshNbxvYXjMgQd8xooTiJ+Unx/5/AHVi63ThVXc /psOG1taq4ASw4OvoFqTqduE= In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 08 Dec 2024 00:10:40 -0500") Autocrypt: addr=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEZNfpPhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACBEmr+0xwIIHZfIDlZmm7sa+lHHSb0g9FZrN6qE6ru60JUJq w7ZybiBCaWRhciA8Ympvcm4uYmlkYXJAdGhhb2Rhbi5kZT6IlgQTFgoAPgIbAwULCQgHAgIiAgYV CgkICwIEFgIDAQIeBwIXgBYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlHF9oBQJk1/YmAhkBAAoJEFwbdKFl HF9oB9cBAJoIIGQKXm4cpap+Flxc/EGnYl0123lcEyzuduqvlDT0AQC3OlFKm/OiqJ8IMTrzJRZ8 phFssTkSrrFXnM2jm5PYDoiTBBMWCgA7FiEEUfF263VHMB6nKairXBt0oWUcX2gFAmTX6T4CGwMF CwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgcCF4AACgkQXBt0oWUcX2hbCQEAtru7kvM8hi8zo6z9ux2h K+B5xViKuo7Z8K3IXuK5ugwA+wUfKzomzdBPhfxDsqLcEziGRxoyx0Q3ld9aermBUccHtBxCasO2 cm4gQmlkYXIgPG1lQHRoYW9kYW4uZGU+iJMEExYKADsCGwMFCwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwEC HgcCF4AWIQRR8XbrdUcwHqcpqKtcG3ShZRxfaAUCZNf2FQAKCRBcG3ShZRxfaCzSAP4hZ7cSp0YN XYpcjHdsySh2MuBhhoPeLGXs+2kSiqBiOwD/TP8AgPEg/R+SI9GI9on7fBJJ0mp2IT8kZ2rhDOjg gA6IkwQTFgoAOxYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlH Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a03:4000:4f:f15::1; envelope-from=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; helo=thaodan.de X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:326211 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > The issues the others mentioned mainly the lack of acceptance of the > > format > > "Lack of acceptance" is a broad term. It can manifest in various > ways, and for this purpose, it matters which way. > > and for sometime the possibility to find info manual manly due > > the first problem. > > What does "the first problem" refer to? It sounds like a reference to > something before this paragraph, but thee was no text from you before > that. If I want to read manual in Emacs outside of smaller man-pages or projects which split their manual of several man-pages than I would prefer to find them in the Info format. Because of the limited acceptance finding manuals in the info format is hard. > > > Some projects switched to documentation systems which don't provide > > anything but HTML or PDF such as e.g. Doxygen or those where the info > > output is available but fragile and usually not enabled due problem one. > > This will have reduced the range of manuals available in Info format > and thus harmed the success of Info format. But I don't see how it relates > to the difficulty getting the basic Info support ncluded in the distro. > > > In the instance of the this specific manual it's just that it's one > > specific document which isn't distributed along other software which is > > unusual but also that it doesn't get much exposure I think. > > Should we recruit people to package it for various kinds of distros? Just make packaging easy. Packaging manuals is quite easy as long as all the legal requirements are met. Outside of that there are already methods for installing methods from other sources if necessary. > > > The last issue is that the license make it impossible to be distributed > > for some namely those which are Debian based but not solely those. > > We could pubish a .deb made from the manual, for distros less rigid > than Debian to include. Should we do that? It could help but fixing some of the issues Debian mentioned would be another, IMHO better way. Just printing out the manual is impractical with it's current manual to e.g. use it for education as you would have to print out the full license each time. Multiply that per student handed a page in the manual and it gets expensive fast. Debian is only rigid on the freedom of their users, just like Gnu is. It all depends on your lens. > > > Related: I package the manual for RPM based distribution below: > > https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:Thaodan:Documentation/c-intro-and-ref > > Would you like to distribute that package via gnu.org? > I'd rather point to it there than on opensuse.org. The package would be included in the distributions package manager just like Emacs is already. If it is on gnu.org it would require the user to add the repository to the package manager first. Besides I think openSUSE can be trusted and the Open BuildService is great software for this kind of purpose. But nothing stops Gnu from creating their own OBS instance for their packages to be build.