From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving kbd to subr.el Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:48:02 +0000 Message-ID: <27b660e5a897f955064e@heytings.org> References: <20211004081724.6281.11798@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <874k9jzu7a.fsf@gnus.org> <874k9juy0r.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtnbtimj.fsf@gnus.org> <87wnmd13ny.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfx10xs6.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7dfpjn3.fsf@gnus.org> <31b2f1e94178d73e5f05@heytings.org> <87czo3pgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <31b2f1e9412d60db82df@heytings.org> <87o87moopl.fsf@gnus.org> <19fca5d18b63e6eff5de@heytings.org> <87wnmaiida.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgr6gw9s.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1chhhkh.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11789"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 19 10:01:27 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mck3q-0002mA-6g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:01:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36942 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mck3o-0000xg-7K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 04:01:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mcjqx-0008UI-Gr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 03:48:07 -0400 Original-Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57670) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mcjqv-0001fQ-Iq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 03:48:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1634629683; bh=LIvHuDkDEqkuW0TESUNYoZU6Gg6w8fpQgaWyie5J19k=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=OzCqLAU3CfX7gq2s7HY14OGaP+MJHfsQYvwctPyi531LlmNsKNClOToJoBXHI1Pqr i4FwWMGjzecuwbrxqf8BataOCXWjejvl/e2TRKp8mgtvw14bThyQOwOC2LaqphRqJu hgieTPmq0gdzX+k8iE81ouqaGA33Dx7SJWyXGTFulWAm/0d85wpct4W2QFM7Fu2/sb BPpyJmJG7vv/ZDbOEoDde7DDQ4WpDVvgkwsX502VEpU/lkCLKhhH5da7/Bkp86+Ccj YdepfjQ1wL2L+LwAgmnssM/n5+HFRdp09IKERv9rA0bYHCh+PWe10q3FR0BrWiyUf3 R5//82zY5WibQ== In-Reply-To: <87r1chhhkh.fsf@gnus.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.142.160.155; envelope-from=gregory@heytings.org; helo=heytings.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:277341 Archived-At: >> The old string syntax for keys just sucks and we should work towards >> its reduction, even if it will stay with us for the foreseeable future. > > I totally agree that the old string syntax for keys sucks, but there is > no realistic way to phase it out. `kbd' was a nice attempt, but it's > not attractive enough as is. My hope is that the new syntax (which > gives you actual error messages if you do something wrong and stuff) > will spur conversion. > I'm puzzled. There is a way to phase it out, in fact this was one of the (two) explict goals of my proposal, and it was also the reason why you rejected it. What am I misunderstanding? This thread is rather long, so for those who did not read all its posts, this is what my proposal is: Emacs 29: allow both syntaxes (kbd and old) in strings; these syntaxes are different and can be distinguised programmatically (with very few exceptions, namely someone who would use e.g. "C-o" to mean "C - o" or "a b" to mean "a SPC b"). Emacs 29 + N: allow both syntaxes (kbd and old), but display a warning when the old syntax is used (mentioning what the new syntax should be), and possibly (if for some reason the old syntax is necessary in some cases) introduce a new specific syntax for it (e.g. "{\C-ca}"). Emacs 29 + 2*N: allow only the kbd syntax, display an error otherwise. Sure, this could break some configurations and some old code, but not more than when the cl- prefix was added to the cl-lib library, or to take a more recent (current) example when xref switched from eieio to cl-defstruct. And unlike these examples the fix is in each case as simple as possible.